First engine bay shots of the new Chevy Camaro
02-01-2008, 10:55 PM
#242
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 840
NOPE, The days of light cars are long gone, at least light cars that we can afford. With crash ratings on new cars getting higher and new tests being thought up, we are pretty much stuck in the 3600-4000lb range.... It would be IMPOSSIBLE to get a vette to 2600lbs and still maintain an interior, let alone cruise control, AC, radio, power windows. and dont even say they can make it all out of carbon fiber or some other exotic material.... that doesnt count for a mass produced car. BUT even then I still think it would be impossible to get to 2600lbs.
02-01-2008, 11:34 PM
#243
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
NOPE, The days of light cars are long gone, at least light cars that we can afford. With crash ratings on new cars getting higher and new tests being thought up, we are pretty much stuck in the 3600-4000lb range.... It would be IMPOSSIBLE to get a vette to 2600lbs and still maintain an interior, let alone cruise control, AC, radio, power windows. and dont even say they can make it all out of carbon fiber or some other exotic material.... that doesnt count for a mass produced car. BUT even then I still think it would be impossible to get to 2600lbs.
Ford has already announced that all of it's next gen cars will lose 200-300 pounds. And I believe it, especially if they adopt alot of Mazda's know how and processes
Expect cars to get slightly smaller with lots more high strength and ultra high strength steel, aluminum and more exotic alloys, and composite materials. And just generally a greater emphasis on weight control in every facet of car design and manufacturing.
With that said, a 2,600 lbs Vette, would be tough if not impossible to do if it still packaged a V8.
Here's a good read on how Mazda used "gram strategy" to keep the Miata so light. It's an interesting piece I think:
Mazda MX-5 - Successful Diet Programme
Lighter than its predecessor
Larger, stiffer and better equipped – but only 10 kg heavier
Painstaking “gram strategy” applied to all components of the cult roadster
Extensive use of high-strength steels, aluminium and composite materials
Almost all new automobiles today are in danger of being heavier than their predecessors, due to ever-stricter safety standards and higher customer demands for comfort features. Mazda wanted to reverse this trend – and was successful.
Delivering a lightweight roadster had highest priority during the development of the new Mazda MX-5. As a result, the third-generation version of the cult roadster is only 10 kg heavier than its predecessor (depending on version).
This modest weight gain is achieved despite the third-generation MX-5 being the first to have side airbags, despite having larger wheels, more powerful engines, an extended standard equipment package and a strengthened body shell.
Thanks to the gram strategy diet, the latest two-seater retains the true aura of Mazda’s original nimble, responsive handling roadster, a sports car whose rear-wheel drive transmission and powerful, frugal four-cylinder engines are still sufficient to deliver truly exhilarating performance.
The soft top is still manual like before – so Mazda could avoid the heavier solution here of an electro-hydraulic retractable top.
By weight, 58 percent of all body components of the new Mazda MX-5 are made of ultra high-strength steel or high-strength steel, which save 10 kg. Using aluminium for the bonnet, boot lid, the powerplant frame, front suspension control arms, rear hub carriers, rear brake callipers and rear suspension spring seats reduces weight even further. The front suspension control arms and the hollow front stabilizer alone cut 6.2 kg of unnecessary weight at the front axle.
Revolutionary Welding Process for the Boot Lid
Spot friction welding, a process first employed on the Mazda RX-8, is used for the boot lid of the new Mazda MX-5. This process, for which Mazda has registered 20 patents, joins zinc covered steel and aluminium panelling. Employing a high-speed spinning tool creates enough heat to spot bind these very different materials to one another. The employment of zinc-coated steel sheeting has other advantages as well. Since zinc melts and runs when heated, it removes the oxidation surface that would otherwise remain at the spot the two metals are welded together, and only without this is a truly robust spot weld possible, because it prevents the chance of corrosion. This process also saves large amounts of electric current needed for traditional spot welding, and the boot lid is now 2.5 kg lighter as well.
Other examples of lightweight construction are the intake manifold (- 2.4 kg) and the cylinder head cover (- 1.3 kg), both being made of plastic. Mazda’s gram strategy also dictated mounting the power steering pump and the air conditioning compressor directly to the engine, which did away with the need of a bracket and saved 3.2 kg. The engines themselves are also lighter than the engines of the outgoing model. The block of the 2.0-litre, for instance, is 5.4 kg lighter than the grey cast-iron block of the 1.8-litre power unit of the previous model.
Optimized Rearview Mirror Saves 84 Grams
Even the smallest of details like the rearview mirror contributed to Mazda’s painstaking vehicle diet programme. Simplifying the mirror’s design saved 84 grams.
During the early phases of Mazda MX-5 development, engineers compiled a list of 573 weight-saving ideas. Had they incorporated all of these, the third-generation Mazda MX-5 would have been 43.5 kg lighter than the previous model. While this radical diet was not completely implemented for reasons of long-term durability and/or due to safety considerations, the curb weight target for a new Mazda MX-5 entry-grade version was achieved.
Combined with an ideal 50:50 weight distribution between the front and rear axles and a lower centre of gravity, the lightweight construction principle of the new Mazda MX-5 delivers high levels of driving fun and much improved occupant safety. Through the use of high-strength steel, the body shell is now 47 percent stiffer for torsional [twisting]rigidity and 22 percent for flexural [bending] rigidity – than the second-generation MX-5, an improvement that enhances both driving enjoyment and occupant safety.
Mazda’s Gram Strategy – Main Components that are Lighter on the new Mazda MX-5 versus the Previous Model
High-strength and ultra high-strength steel in the body and floor assembly -10 kg
Aluminium block of the 2.0-litre engine -5.4 kg
Bracketless power steering pump and air conditioning compressor -3.2 kg
Hollow front stabilizer -2.4 kg
High-strength steel seat frames -2.4 kg per seat
Modifications to the steering system -0.6 kg
Plastic intake manifold -2.4 kg
Plastic cylinder head cover -1.3 kg
Aluminium front suspension lower control arms -2.3 kg
Aluminium front suspension upper control arms -1.5 kg
Aluminium rear brake callipers -1.5 kg
Aluminium rear bearing support -1.75 kg
Aluminium boot lid -2.5 kg
New control units for ABS and dynamic stability control -1.1 kg
Lighter cloth top (including hollow B-pillar brace) –200/ -400 grams
New rearview mirror -84 grams
Mazda Invested More Weight in the Following Safety Components
Strengthened A-pillar +5.4 kg
New side-impact protection in the doors +1.0 kg
New bulkhead behind the seats +12.8 kg
Side airbags +2.3 kg
Lighter than its predecessor
Larger, stiffer and better equipped – but only 10 kg heavier
Painstaking “gram strategy” applied to all components of the cult roadster
Extensive use of high-strength steels, aluminium and composite materials
Almost all new automobiles today are in danger of being heavier than their predecessors, due to ever-stricter safety standards and higher customer demands for comfort features. Mazda wanted to reverse this trend – and was successful.
Delivering a lightweight roadster had highest priority during the development of the new Mazda MX-5. As a result, the third-generation version of the cult roadster is only 10 kg heavier than its predecessor (depending on version).
This modest weight gain is achieved despite the third-generation MX-5 being the first to have side airbags, despite having larger wheels, more powerful engines, an extended standard equipment package and a strengthened body shell.
Thanks to the gram strategy diet, the latest two-seater retains the true aura of Mazda’s original nimble, responsive handling roadster, a sports car whose rear-wheel drive transmission and powerful, frugal four-cylinder engines are still sufficient to deliver truly exhilarating performance.
The soft top is still manual like before – so Mazda could avoid the heavier solution here of an electro-hydraulic retractable top.
By weight, 58 percent of all body components of the new Mazda MX-5 are made of ultra high-strength steel or high-strength steel, which save 10 kg. Using aluminium for the bonnet, boot lid, the powerplant frame, front suspension control arms, rear hub carriers, rear brake callipers and rear suspension spring seats reduces weight even further. The front suspension control arms and the hollow front stabilizer alone cut 6.2 kg of unnecessary weight at the front axle.
Revolutionary Welding Process for the Boot Lid
Spot friction welding, a process first employed on the Mazda RX-8, is used for the boot lid of the new Mazda MX-5. This process, for which Mazda has registered 20 patents, joins zinc covered steel and aluminium panelling. Employing a high-speed spinning tool creates enough heat to spot bind these very different materials to one another. The employment of zinc-coated steel sheeting has other advantages as well. Since zinc melts and runs when heated, it removes the oxidation surface that would otherwise remain at the spot the two metals are welded together, and only without this is a truly robust spot weld possible, because it prevents the chance of corrosion. This process also saves large amounts of electric current needed for traditional spot welding, and the boot lid is now 2.5 kg lighter as well.
Other examples of lightweight construction are the intake manifold (- 2.4 kg) and the cylinder head cover (- 1.3 kg), both being made of plastic. Mazda’s gram strategy also dictated mounting the power steering pump and the air conditioning compressor directly to the engine, which did away with the need of a bracket and saved 3.2 kg. The engines themselves are also lighter than the engines of the outgoing model. The block of the 2.0-litre, for instance, is 5.4 kg lighter than the grey cast-iron block of the 1.8-litre power unit of the previous model.
Optimized Rearview Mirror Saves 84 Grams
Even the smallest of details like the rearview mirror contributed to Mazda’s painstaking vehicle diet programme. Simplifying the mirror’s design saved 84 grams.
During the early phases of Mazda MX-5 development, engineers compiled a list of 573 weight-saving ideas. Had they incorporated all of these, the third-generation Mazda MX-5 would have been 43.5 kg lighter than the previous model. While this radical diet was not completely implemented for reasons of long-term durability and/or due to safety considerations, the curb weight target for a new Mazda MX-5 entry-grade version was achieved.
Combined with an ideal 50:50 weight distribution between the front and rear axles and a lower centre of gravity, the lightweight construction principle of the new Mazda MX-5 delivers high levels of driving fun and much improved occupant safety. Through the use of high-strength steel, the body shell is now 47 percent stiffer for torsional [twisting]rigidity and 22 percent for flexural [bending] rigidity – than the second-generation MX-5, an improvement that enhances both driving enjoyment and occupant safety.
Mazda’s Gram Strategy – Main Components that are Lighter on the new Mazda MX-5 versus the Previous Model
High-strength and ultra high-strength steel in the body and floor assembly -10 kg
Aluminium block of the 2.0-litre engine -5.4 kg
Bracketless power steering pump and air conditioning compressor -3.2 kg
Hollow front stabilizer -2.4 kg
High-strength steel seat frames -2.4 kg per seat
Modifications to the steering system -0.6 kg
Plastic intake manifold -2.4 kg
Plastic cylinder head cover -1.3 kg
Aluminium front suspension lower control arms -2.3 kg
Aluminium front suspension upper control arms -1.5 kg
Aluminium rear brake callipers -1.5 kg
Aluminium rear bearing support -1.75 kg
Aluminium boot lid -2.5 kg
New control units for ABS and dynamic stability control -1.1 kg
Lighter cloth top (including hollow B-pillar brace) –200/ -400 grams
New rearview mirror -84 grams
Mazda Invested More Weight in the Following Safety Components
Strengthened A-pillar +5.4 kg
New side-impact protection in the doors +1.0 kg
New bulkhead behind the seats +12.8 kg
Side airbags +2.3 kg
Last edited by Z284ever; 02-01-2008 at 11:41 PM.
02-01-2008, 11:52 PM
#244
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: South Bend , IN
Posts: 2,801
I personally think OEM's have just overcome all the extra weight todays safety standards are adding with more powerful engines .....because they could . Its certainly easier to ekk more power from an engine than reduce chassis weight . Im with Charlie .....I think you will now see chassis's get ALOT more attention that they ever have .
02-01-2008, 11:55 PM
#245
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Annapolis MD
Posts: 2,802
I do like the idea though. Sounds like how the Z06 was done
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 02-01-2008 at 11:58 PM.
02-02-2008, 08:15 AM
#246
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 515
NOPE, The days of light cars are long gone, at least light cars that we can afford. With crash ratings on new cars getting higher and new tests being thought up, we are pretty much stuck in the 3600-4000lb range.... It would be IMPOSSIBLE to get a vette to 2600lbs and still maintain an interior, let alone cruise control, AC, radio, power windows. and dont even say they can make it all out of carbon fiber or some other exotic material.... that doesnt count for a mass produced car. BUT even then I still think it would be impossible to get to 2600lbs.
Please note that they are looking into making the Vette Smaller. Also They are looking at using more lighter metals and and technology. GM is already with many other companied looking into the use of Compsites once too expensive but now are viable with need and a increase in cost.
Cabon fibre and other new materials will arrive. Heck today we even have a Balsa wood floor in the present Vette. Tell me 10 years ago you would have expected Balsa wood.
2600-3000 pound C7 has a realistic chance per their manager.
The future Vette may be a little more of the size of a Solstice with a 4.7 liter engine as the Vette manager was quoted they were considering.
All the cards are on the table and things are going to change inmany ways. the last CAFE changes in the 70's-80's brough size reduction off all cars and technology like fuel injection that untill then were too expensive for the average car but now were required for emisasions and mileage.
The bottom line is technology and size is hwo the weight will come off all cars. Much of the technology is already here just the MFG were not will to take on the cost. But today Bob Lutz has said the new cars will increas in price by at least $6,000.00. That my friend is to pay for the more expensive materials and technology they are not using today.
Today they can make lighter cars just they could still meet standards with the addition of more cheap steel. THey also never had to factor too much on size. Today the rules have changes and many concpets will also change.
Never say never in this day and age. Think what we had 10 years ago vs today. We will see 2-3 time more change with the new rules and the car as we know it will evolve much in the next 10 years.
Why do you think many of the plans for the new platforms are on hold? They are not looking to make car heavier or more powerful.
Last edited by hyperv6; 02-02-2008 at 08:18 AM.
02-02-2008, 08:32 AM
#247
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
I personally think OEM's have just overcome all the extra weight todays safety standards are adding with more powerful engines .....because they could . Its certainly easier to ekk more power from an engine than reduce chassis weight . Im with Charlie .....I think you will now see chassis's get ALOT more attention that they ever have .
For sure. Under old CAFE, it became easier to met EPA and performance targets by merely improving powertrains, in spite of weight gain... rather than controlling or even reducing weight. Those days are going to be over soon. And yes, it's going to cost - at least initially.
I think between new US CAFE, and new Euro CO2 standards, we're going to see LOTS of changes in the next 5-10 years.
02-02-2008, 08:58 AM
#248
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 515
As much as I loved my two 82 Rx7s and the last gen rx7, Mazda would really have to prove their more than tin cans to me. I came up on a wreck of a 90's 626 or so that ran off the road and its roof wrapped around a tree. The people were cut out of the floorboards. Maybe its me but their super thin sheetmetal scare me. I was never happy about the miata essentially replacing the rx7 either...
I do like the idea though. Sounds like how the Z06 was done
I do like the idea though. Sounds like how the Z06 was done
But in the end cars will fast the requiremnts but not feel as solid as some in the past. Lets face it the Charger even over 4,000 points is not as solid of a feeing car as a 38 Chevy. The thickness of the steel is staggering. But the Charger is still a safe solid car.
Even the Smart car is solid enought to not implode hitting a concrete barrier at 70 MPH. The car remaind in tact. Now on the other hand no one would have lived with the G force it went through since there is no crush space.
The challange is to build a strong, crushable car that is light weight. It also must be affordable and repairable.
Now if yout take out the Affordable and repairable it makes it so much easier but those two things are what make it a real challange.
02-02-2008, 09:16 AM
#249
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Commerce, mi, USA
Posts: 2,139
NOPE, The days of light cars are long gone, at least light cars that we can afford. With crash ratings on new cars getting higher and new tests being thought up, we are pretty much stuck in the 3600-4000lb range.... It would be IMPOSSIBLE to get a vette to 2600lbs and still maintain an interior, let alone cruise control, AC, radio, power windows. and dont even say they can make it all out of carbon fiber or some other exotic material.... that doesnt count for a mass produced car. BUT even then I still think it would be impossible to get to 2600lbs.
As for comments by others here about technology... I do agree with the notion we can do a lot with technology. But there are other factors here too. One is America's love affair with cars, and roomy SUV/trucks. (BTW who here wants to be driving around on American roads in a lightweight wondermobile, staring at the grilles of two- and three-ton trucks and SUV's? Hmm... safety...) America's attitudes about having large, comfortable, peppy and useful personal transportation are not changing much, any time soon. What MIGHT be ending, or heavily revised, is the outrageous new CAFE limits. People are going to revolt, once they realize they need to pay $6000 more for new vehicles, just so we don't have to get oil from ANWR. They will get angry when the man-made-global-warming hoax is exposed as such. Then they will get up in arms as only Americans do... and vote the clowns out of Congress.
Last edited by BigDarknFast; 02-02-2008 at 09:29 AM.
02-02-2008, 09:22 AM
#250
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Commerce, mi, USA
Posts: 2,139
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Here's a good read on how Mazda used "gram strategy" to keep the Miata so light. It's an interesting piece I think:
...
...
http://www.jdpa.com/NeWs/relEaSes/pr...asp?ID=2004037
02-02-2008, 10:42 AM
#251
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
On the otherhand, the Miata is light and cheap.
02-02-2008, 11:16 AM
#252
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 515
It will be more expensive and not only Lutz has pointed this out. That is what the car companies are upset about. They can build cars that get great mileage now if they want to but at what cost.
There have been rumbles that even the Volt will top $40,000. If accurate that is going to hurt sales. I hope it is wrong or will change by production.
The best way to redue weight is size and while we will still have the V8 and larger cars we will just have less of them and they will be more expensive. .
All the cars do not have to be micro or small but more than half will be.
I see little problem with getting a good balance with the cars but the SUV and light trucks are going to have to evolve or die. THis is the area of concern because of the profit in this area. Now that GM is doing better with the Malibu it may lead GM to more profits with their small cars and take some of the burden off the trucks to make all the money.
Some of the keys are how well GM can do with the Delta II, Alpha if approved and other not named small platforms at this time.
Getting people interested in good small profitable cars is a key. Many claimed GM could not make a profiable small car, the Malibu proves they can do it now they just need to do it with other smaller lines.
There have been rumbles that even the Volt will top $40,000. If accurate that is going to hurt sales. I hope it is wrong or will change by production.
The best way to redue weight is size and while we will still have the V8 and larger cars we will just have less of them and they will be more expensive. .
All the cars do not have to be micro or small but more than half will be.
I see little problem with getting a good balance with the cars but the SUV and light trucks are going to have to evolve or die. THis is the area of concern because of the profit in this area. Now that GM is doing better with the Malibu it may lead GM to more profits with their small cars and take some of the burden off the trucks to make all the money.
Some of the keys are how well GM can do with the Delta II, Alpha if approved and other not named small platforms at this time.
Getting people interested in good small profitable cars is a key. Many claimed GM could not make a profiable small car, the Malibu proves they can do it now they just need to do it with other smaller lines.
02-02-2008, 05:51 PM
#253
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 801
Being, literally, a brand new car in it's first model year.
Lutz has also mentioned that as they build more, and as it's been out for a few years, price will drop. Just like any new technology. Still - this is going to be a turning point for the industry. There is no failing.
02-02-2008, 06:15 PM
#254
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 213
I've heard that, too...But, honestly - it sounds reasonable.
Being, literally, a brand new car in it's first model year.
Lutz has also mentioned that as they build more, and as it's been out for a few years, price will drop. Just like any new technology. Still - this is going to be a turning point for the industry. There is no failing.
Being, literally, a brand new car in it's first model year.
Lutz has also mentioned that as they build more, and as it's been out for a few years, price will drop. Just like any new technology. Still - this is going to be a turning point for the industry. There is no failing.
Just like the personal computer...... I remember in 1995 when Intell released the first Pentium, and a Pentium 100 Mhz with 16 MB of ram, 500 MB hd, 28.8 modem, and 4X CD-Rom was not only cutting edge fast, but about $2500.00
The computer I am on right now is an Intell Duo Core 2.2 Ghz with 2 GIG of ram, a 500 GIG hd, and twin 56X DVD-RW drives..... That I built for less than $900.00
02-03-2008, 06:57 AM
#255
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 515
I've heard that, too...But, honestly - it sounds reasonable.
Being, literally, a brand new car in it's first model year.
Lutz has also mentioned that as they build more, and as it's been out for a few years, price will drop. Just like any new technology. Still - this is going to be a turning point for the industry. There is no failing.
Being, literally, a brand new car in it's first model year.
Lutz has also mentioned that as they build more, and as it's been out for a few years, price will drop. Just like any new technology. Still - this is going to be a turning point for the industry. There is no failing.
There are many who want and like the Volt idea but will not go over 40K-50K to buy one. I know price and cost of battery replacment are key points GM is working hard on. I could see the first cars being lease only with a 100,000 mle warranty to help more people buy these till volume takes over.