Canadian Car Plant 1 closed due to strike
09-27-2007, 02:52 PM
#16
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 132
Some unions are good I agree, but if a factory worker at GM makes enough money for an extra house, or makes as much money as an employee with a college degree, that is wrong. There is no education in putting a fender on a car, even the factories have hoists to hold the fender in place while the worker is screwing it on...My brother was an intern engineer with Chrysler and saw it all with the new Sebring that they released. I am glad something happened in a positive way so GM can become competitive.
10-02-2007, 09:31 AM
#18
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Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 881
I never said that the upper management of the American automotive industry were mental giants. But By FAR, Unions are the biggest money grubbing ****** and the biggest expense to maintaining buisness for them. Employment should NEVER be in the power of the EMPLOYED. That's not the most productive way to run things. If you know you can't be fired for being a lazy, unproductive whiner, then chances are that's EXACTLY what you will be. Here's a tip. EARN your money. Don't extort it.
10-02-2007, 11:31 AM
#19
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 188
Anyone could screw on a fender. It just takes a few seconds to learn.
Let's try to compare apples to apples here please.
Becoming an actor would have been a much better analogy. I mean, if Nicolas Cage can get paid millions for what his "acting" -- anyone should be able to.
10-03-2007, 07:09 AM
#20
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oshawa - Home of the 5th-gen
Posts: 5,308
Unions have their place in the workplace, but I agree, many aspects of them have gone too far. Considering the automotive industry is a "retail" based industry, then it's only reasonable to expect that it will go up and down with the times and the economy. Pretty much ANYBODY who works in retail (or any type of "sales") knows the effect of poor sales ..... bad pay cheques! While it's "nice" that the UAW & CAW have been able to "secure" so many peoples' wages in a retail position, it's also (clearly) not good when the company can't make decisions about their direction without being pushed around by their employees!
I mean really, if THE BOSS pays YOU to show up and work, why do YOU get to tell THE BOSS how it's going to be?!
I myself work in a large unionized environment, and sometimes I shake my head at the attitude that I see at work
("gimme, gimme, gimme!!! 
") ... it's actually pretty pathetic. Especially considering the AGE of some of these "whiners". Heh, and I'm still in my 20's and I think it's ridiculous!
I mean really, if THE BOSS pays YOU to show up and work, why do YOU get to tell THE BOSS how it's going to be?!
I myself work in a large unionized environment, and sometimes I shake my head at the attitude that I see at work
("gimme, gimme, gimme!!! ") ... it's actually pretty pathetic. Especially considering the AGE of some of these "whiners". Heh, and I'm still in my 20's and I think it's ridiculous!
10-03-2007, 09:08 AM
#21
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 881
Unions have their place in the workplace, but I agree, many aspects of them have gone too far. Considering the automotive industry is a "retail" based industry, then it's only reasonable to expect that it will go up and down with the times and the economy. Pretty much ANYBODY who works in retail (or any type of "sales") knows the effect of poor sales ..... bad pay cheques! While it's "nice" that the UAW & CAW have been able to "secure" so many peoples' wages in a retail position, it's also (clearly) not good when the company can't make decisions about their direction without being pushed around by their employees!
I mean really, if THE BOSS pays YOU to show up and work, why do YOU get to tell THE BOSS how it's going to be?!
I myself work in a large unionized environment, and sometimes I shake my head at the attitude that I see at work ("gimme, gimme, gimme!!! ") ... it's actually pretty pathetic. Especially considering the AGE of some of these "whiners". Heh, and I'm still in my 20's and I think it's ridiculous!
I mean really, if THE BOSS pays YOU to show up and work, why do YOU get to tell THE BOSS how it's going to be?!
I myself work in a large unionized environment, and sometimes I shake my head at the attitude that I see at work
("gimme, gimme, gimme!!! ") ... it's actually pretty pathetic. Especially considering the AGE of some of these "whiners". Heh, and I'm still in my 20's and I think it's ridiculous!
10-03-2007, 07:46 PM
#22
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Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,947
WOW....the lack of knowledge about Unions, and laughable stereotyping is astonishing....just wow....
somethings to consider:
somethings to consider:
GM workers strike on job security, economic issues
In recent years, UAW members have done their part by working with the company on issues such as the corporate restructuring, the attrition plan, the Delphi bankruptcy, the 2005 health care agreement and numerous quality, productivity and health and safety issues. Workers gave up a 3 percent general wage increase in 2006 and cost of living allowances.
“We’ve met and solved all of GM’s problems since 2003,” he added. We’ve worked with General Motors on every issue that came before them.”
“We’ve done a lot of things to help that company,” Gettelfinger said. “There comes a point in time when you have to draw the line in the sand.”
“It’s become apparent to us that as much as workers give, they cannot give enough,” Gettelfinger said. “As much as executives get, they cannot get enough.”
In recent years, UAW members have done their part by working with the company on issues such as the corporate restructuring, the attrition plan, the Delphi bankruptcy, the 2005 health care agreement and numerous quality, productivity and health and safety issues. Workers gave up a 3 percent general wage increase in 2006 and cost of living allowances.
“We’ve met and solved all of GM’s problems since 2003,” he added. We’ve worked with General Motors on every issue that came before them.”
“We’ve done a lot of things to help that company,” Gettelfinger said. “There comes a point in time when you have to draw the line in the sand.”
“It’s become apparent to us that as much as workers give, they cannot give enough,” Gettelfinger said. “As much as executives get, they cannot get enough.”
“Throughout this time period," said Gettelfinger, "it has been the dedication of UAW members that has helped GM set new standards for safety, quality and productivity in their manufacturing facilities. And in this current round of bargaining, we did everything possible to negotiate a new contract, including an unprecedented agreement to stay at the bargaining table nine days past the expiration of the previous agreement.”
Last edited by 90rocz; 10-03-2007 at 07:48 PM.
10-04-2007, 12:42 AM
#23
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 188
^ while I hear what you are saying, and it is valid (sometimes the "unions are the only cause for our downfall" is a bit much), but what you presented is clearly biased from the unions perspective.
The simple fact they are striking over job security is a tough one for me to swallow. It is incredibly hard to run a business when you can't fire people that either a) don't do a good job, or b) you can't afford to pay. It means you have to make potentially bad business decisions in order to keep within the contract. Bad business decisions which may, ultimately make it worse in the future to live up to the contract, snowballing downward.
Job security is not a common thing this day and age, it is just a fact of life -- and it shouldn't be forced on a business. But, the business shouldn't be able to take advantage of the employee either. It is difficult for both sides. I am just glad to hear they reached an agreement.
Now, if they can just close the plant to retool for the Camaro....oh, say, now -- I would be really happy!
The simple fact they are striking over job security is a tough one for me to swallow. It is incredibly hard to run a business when you can't fire people that either a) don't do a good job, or b) you can't afford to pay. It means you have to make potentially bad business decisions in order to keep within the contract. Bad business decisions which may, ultimately make it worse in the future to live up to the contract, snowballing downward.
Job security is not a common thing this day and age, it is just a fact of life -- and it shouldn't be forced on a business. But, the business shouldn't be able to take advantage of the employee either. It is difficult for both sides. I am just glad to hear they reached an agreement.
Now, if they can just close the plant to retool for the Camaro....oh, say, now -- I would be really happy!
10-04-2007, 05:37 AM
#24
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 881
I have worked on union sets before (movies/tv shows) I know what I'm talking about. UNPRODUCTIVE. It takes a union crew about 5 times longer to do what a non union crew does. Why do you think it really takes $100million to make a movie these days? It ain't all going to the bloated star's pay. And the very fact that EMPLOYEES can decide to NOT go to work because they have a whiny a$$ed beef is rediculous. I've NEVER belonged to a union and I've NEVER been "taken advantage of" by an employer. Sure there was a day when things were different, and unions play a big part in changing that. But now that it is fixed, unions are nothing but a parasite sucking any profit and productivity out of a business. If you want to make more money than you are worth it seems that you have two choices. 1. make better choices in your life. or 2. Join a union and stick it to the man.
And all you unions guys out there reading this know this is true. You're just affraid that if enough people gripe about what your unions have done to this country, you'll loose your gravy train.
And all you unions guys out there reading this know this is true. You're just affraid that if enough people gripe about what your unions have done to this country, you'll loose your gravy train.
10-04-2007, 06:28 AM
#25
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Oshawa - Home of the 5th-gen
Posts: 5,308
^ ^ HOWEVER, are all unions just blatently over-paid, OR, is it because of the strength of the unions that the workers have been able to negotiate the wages that they SHOULD be making, as opposed to the people in private industry who have to bust their ***** for barely over minimum wage?! Have you not considered that the unions aren't over-paid, but many others are simply UNDER-paid?? 
I realize not all companies can afford to pay HUGE salaries, but I also know that many large businesses, non-union, CAN afford to pay their employees significantly more than they do, but because they're private and/or family run, they're cheap, rake in all the profits for themselves, and pay their employees a bare minimum wage. I've worked in that environment too, and trust me, it's discouraging ... LITERALLY I asked for a 50 cent raise over the wage they offered me, and the "best they could do" was 25 cents an hour . THAT'S almost equally BS as the "over-paid" unions .
Have you not considered that the unions aren't over-paid, but many others are simply UNDER-paid?? I realize not all companies can afford to pay HUGE salaries, but I also know that many large businesses, non-union, CAN afford to pay their employees significantly more than they do, but because they're private and/or family run, they're cheap, rake in all the profits for themselves, and pay their employees a bare minimum wage. I've worked in that environment too, and trust me, it's discouraging ... LITERALLY I asked for a 50 cent raise over the wage they offered me, and the "best they could do" was 25 cents an hour . THAT'S almost equally BS as the "over-paid" unions .
10-04-2007, 07:31 AM
#26
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 881
^ ^ HOWEVER, are all unions just blatently over-paid, OR, is it because of the strength of the unions that the workers have been able to negotiate the wages that they SHOULD be making, as opposed to the people in private industry who have to bust their ***** for barely over minimum wage?! Have you not considered that the unions aren't over-paid, but many others are simply UNDER-paid?? I realize not all companies can afford to pay HUGE salaries, but I also know that many large businesses, non-union, CAN afford to pay their employees significantly more than they do, but because they're private and/or family run, they're cheap, rake in all the profits for themselves, and pay their employees a bare minimum wage. I've worked in that environment too, and trust me, it's discouraging ... LITERALLY I asked for a 50 cent raise over the wage they offered me, and the "best they could do" was 25 cents an hour . THAT'S almost equally BS as the "over-paid" unions .
Have you not considered that the unions aren't over-paid, but many others are simply UNDER-paid?? I realize not all companies can afford to pay HUGE salaries, but I also know that many large businesses, non-union, CAN afford to pay their employees significantly more than they do, but because they're private and/or family run, they're cheap, rake in all the profits for themselves, and pay their employees a bare minimum wage. I've worked in that environment too, and trust me, it's discouraging ... LITERALLY I asked for a 50 cent raise over the wage they offered me, and the "best they could do" was 25 cents an hour . THAT'S almost equally BS as the "over-paid" unions .Last edited by christianjax; 10-04-2007 at 11:06 AM.
10-04-2007, 08:21 AM
#27
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Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Posts: 2,947
I've worked in the UAW for over 12 years, and just got my first wage increase last year.
How is that overpaid??
How many jobs out there require, "NON-STOP" physical labor for the entire day??...no smoke breaks, no stopping and talking about last night's game, etc. Even when you have to go to the restroom, you have to get permission and a replacement...
I've worked in construction; for a transplant factory; at a hotel restaurant etc...NONE of any other jobs I've worked is like assembly line work...It pays pretty good because the work warrants it.
And sure, there's corruption etc in unions; so is there in government, but like government it's a neccessary evil, today more than ever, a check and balance...especially in the face of Globalization.
But there's many more good, hard working, safety conscience, professional people, doing jobs many don't want to do, and take great pride in their work, to keep this country strong.
Do you make a decent wage at your Non-Union job???
You can bet you have a Union to thank for that too...
Companies will not pay a penny more than they think they can get away with, and with no opposition, where would the average wage be today?
The push for the return of sweat shops is present today, though many will not acknowledge it by name...my company personnaly wants 59 hour work weeks, 10 hours of mandantory continous work a day, and 3, 9 hour Saturdays a month!..in our new contract talks...the Union is all that may help me.
How is that overpaid??
How many jobs out there require, "NON-STOP" physical labor for the entire day??...no smoke breaks, no stopping and talking about last night's game, etc. Even when you have to go to the restroom, you have to get permission and a replacement...
I've worked in construction; for a transplant factory; at a hotel restaurant etc...NONE of any other jobs I've worked is like assembly line work...It pays pretty good because the work warrants it.
And sure, there's corruption etc in unions; so is there in government, but like government it's a neccessary evil, today more than ever, a check and balance...especially in the face of Globalization.
But there's many more good, hard working, safety conscience, professional people, doing jobs many don't want to do, and take great pride in their work, to keep this country strong.
Do you make a decent wage at your Non-Union job???
You can bet you have a Union to thank for that too...
Companies will not pay a penny more than they think they can get away with, and with no opposition, where would the average wage be today?
The push for the return of sweat shops is present today, though many will not acknowledge it by name...my company personnaly wants 59 hour work weeks, 10 hours of mandantory continous work a day, and 3, 9 hour Saturdays a month!..in our new contract talks...the Union is all that may help me.
Last edited by 90rocz; 10-04-2007 at 08:30 AM.
10-04-2007, 11:17 AM
#28
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 881
I've worked in the UAW for over 12 years, and just got my first wage increase last year.
How is that overpaid??
How many jobs out there require, "NON-STOP" physical labor for the entire day??...no smoke breaks, no stopping and talking about last night's game, etc. Even when you have to go to the restroom, you have to get permission and a replacement...
I've worked in construction; for a transplant factory; at a hotel restaurant etc...NONE of any other jobs I've worked is like assembly line work...It pays pretty good because the work warrants it.
And sure, there's corruption etc in unions; so is there in government, but like government it's a neccessary evil, today more than ever, a check and balance...especially in the face of Globalization.
But there's many more good, hard working, safety conscience, professional people, doing jobs many don't want to do, and take great pride in their work, to keep this country strong.
Do you make a decent wage at your Non-Union job???
You can bet you have a Union to thank for that too...
Companies will not pay a penny more than they think they can get away with, and with no opposition, where would the average wage be today?
The push for the return of sweat shops is present today, though many will not acknowledge it by name...my company personnaly wants 59 hour work weeks, 10 hours of mandantory continous work a day, and 3, 9 hour Saturdays a month!..in our new contract talks...the Union is all that may help me.
How is that overpaid??
How many jobs out there require, "NON-STOP" physical labor for the entire day??...no smoke breaks, no stopping and talking about last night's game, etc. Even when you have to go to the restroom, you have to get permission and a replacement...
I've worked in construction; for a transplant factory; at a hotel restaurant etc...NONE of any other jobs I've worked is like assembly line work...It pays pretty good because the work warrants it.
And sure, there's corruption etc in unions; so is there in government, but like government it's a neccessary evil, today more than ever, a check and balance...especially in the face of Globalization.
But there's many more good, hard working, safety conscience, professional people, doing jobs many don't want to do, and take great pride in their work, to keep this country strong.
Do you make a decent wage at your Non-Union job???
You can bet you have a Union to thank for that too...
Companies will not pay a penny more than they think they can get away with, and with no opposition, where would the average wage be today?
The push for the return of sweat shops is present today, though many will not acknowledge it by name...my company personnaly wants 59 hour work weeks, 10 hours of mandantory continous work a day, and 3, 9 hour Saturdays a month!..in our new contract talks...the Union is all that may help me.
I'd be fired and replaced. AS I SHOULD BE. If I want more money for what I do, It is up to ME to go elsewhere and get a job that pays more. I knew what I was getting paid when I started here. So did you. Do you really think it is okay to bitch and moan about it after the fact? Don't like it? Move on. Don't drive up the cost of whatever your company is producing for your own gain. Don't you see how that purpetuates an endess cycle? It drives inflation. You mention globalization. Why do you think globalization is a factor at all? Do you really think parts for American cars would be made in China if it weren't for companies trying to find a way to NOT have to pay the inflated union rates? Really? I'm all for everyone making a fair wage for what they do. But unions milk the f*** out of it. You can't be fired? You get payed if you get laid off (most likely because a company can't afford the union) ect... Competitive market is what made this country great. Not union GREED.
10-04-2007, 11:50 AM
#29
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 188
However, on the flip side, let's also not loose site that American is not a manufacturing economy. It is just simply impossible to compete with China (a large part due to cultural/governmental differences). Heck, third world countries can't even compete with China. So, manufacturing jobs, as a whole, are steadily declining. I can see where modern day unions can help keep semi-skilled and skilled jobs in the states which will help the economy as a whole. It just isn't the most efficient (cheapest) way for the OEMs. And, that hurts their ability to compete.
Again, this is a much more complicated issue than "unions are a bunch of cry babies who are killing the auto industry" vs. "unions are underpaid and help make everyone better-off."
Also, I want to reiterate that none of the union-bashing is directed towards the people within the unions. No one is saying the individual workers are to blame, or that they are all lazy and overpaid. It is just we want our 600hp, 3200# Camaro with a Cadillac-level interior and the ability to build it anyway we want for $25,000.
10-04-2007, 12:04 PM
#30
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Posts: 881
yes, by all means, I'm not attacking anyone here because they are in a union. It is the organization of the UNION that I despise and blame. If someone were to offer me gobs of money and benefits for a job that requires little to no education of course I would take it. (no I'm not calling anyone here a moron. although some may very will BE a moron, but that is neither here nor there.) I blame UAW for toyota's being all over our roads.(at least a major reason) I blame UAW for my 1999 Trans Am being built in Canada instead of America. (and my 2009 Camaro too for that matter) What kills me is that unions can't overlook their greed to see that they are in fact slitting thier own throats. They will whine and strike this country right out of the Automotive building buisness. Period.
I blame UAW for toyota's being all over our roads.(at least a major reason) I blame UAW for my 1999 Trans Am being built in Canada instead of America. (and my 2009 Camaro too for that matter) What kills me is that unions can't overlook their greed to see that they are in fact slitting thier own throats. They will whine and strike this country right out of the Automotive building buisness. Period.
Last edited by christianjax; 10-04-2007 at 01:01 PM.