have a plea for Scott Settlemire and the rest of GM... i may be worrrying for no reason, but i'd rather just throw this out there just in case.

some background before i make my plea:

i just had lunch with a long time friend who happens to also be the top parts girl at the local Buick-Pontiac-GMC dealer. we always share war stories (since i used to be a service writer/jack-of-all-trades at the local Chevy-Cadillac dealer) and she keeps me abreast of all the new stuff going on with cars since i'm not in the biz anymore.

anyway, she was telling me that the new Yukons/Tahoes have been having a lot of issues concerning a wide array of things because every module talks to one another and this is causing all kinds of headaches for customers and service techs. now i know it will get better as the cars age, the bugs are worked out, and the technicians get used to the new technology... but i'm concerned that cars are being made more and more so that enthusiasts like us won't be able to work on them.

she was telling me about some of the things they have experienced with customers cars. for instance, on a new Tahoe if you change a window regulator, you have to whip out the tech 2 reprogram the computer to accept it or it won't work. also one customer with a new Envoy added an aftermarket DVD player, and this caused a parasitic drain and caused the vehicle to have a 4 second delay for starting... that was a monster to trace that gremlin.

another friend of mine in the biz describes this new "module-to-module speak" best:

now here's my plea:

please, please, please do what you can to make the new Camaro fun for enthusiasts to work on. i know this technology is here to stay, but don't make it to where we have to get the computer reprogrammed every time we bolt-on a new mod or replace a simple item that has worn out. at least by the time the Camaro comes out they will more than likely have the bugs worked out with the current systems... but not everyone can afford a tech 2... not everyone likes to pay someone else to work on their car... and not everyone enjoys toying with the computer especially for something that should be a simple fix.

yes, i know we are in the minority and most people could care less about working on their own car... but since the Camaro probably has the highest ratio of shadetree mechanics in its buyer base, just please consider us. we like to mod our cars. we like to bolt-on horsepower. we like to go fast with little investment.

thanks for listening to this crazy gearhead chick

 

Good post! I worked on F-16 aircraft among other for 21 years (AF Retired) and I know what you mean about the way high tech is wired. You have to be able to read wiring digrams and schematics to change a lite bulb ( not quite that bad, but ...).

Please GM don't do this to us. KISS - Keep it Simple ... lol (in the AF we said Sergeant).

 

I'm somewhat concerned about this as well. The new tech is kind of spooky, particularly the thought of finding parts in 15 years.

 

Integrated systems is the problem. We need a main "processing point" that controls all these functions. That way unless that main point gets screwed up, things will function even if one in what woudl have previously been a chain, had been removed/modified/broken/malfunctioning/etc. . And if the main point gets screwed up it's fairly easy to trace the problem then.

Honestly i'd like GM to offer a setup where certian things on a car could be controled using a normal home computer (via USB, etc.) to make changes that a home mechanic might need to make, such as tell the car it has a new/different part. Just leave the other stuff that can screw up the car in a seperate port and/or require a passcode, etc. to get into to modify.

 

People need to get a grip regarding these new systems and controllers. Their benefits FAR outweigh the new complexities, IMHO. Sorry folks - but the days of simple, bolt-it-unbolt-it analog cars are long gone. The good news though - people are also far less likely to WANT to tear into and change their new car. When I got my first new car in 1983 (Citation X11) it was common knowledge the factory radios were junky, and I put in an aftermarket one myself no issue. I wouldn't tackle that today in my 05 GTO, with its stereo integrated with the steering wheel controls... but so what? That stereo is a great system anyway.

 

Not really too sure what you mean by old cars being more "analog", but new cars are still bolt-it-unbolt-it vehicles. The difference is nowadays there is a pain in the *** computer that often gets in the way with what would otherwise be a simple bolt on (headers on some cars as one example).

 

I agree totally with the original post, I would not want to have to reprogram the computer every time I had to replace a little sensor. I think the driving force behind all of this is to make it impossible for the common man to repair or modify his car without the dealer getting some piece of the pie. I would say it's all just a ploy for dealers to bring in a little more money.

 

It's like Ferrari's ..... don't you HAVE TO bring your car to a Ferrari dealer for any/all maintenance and repair? I'm sure I've heard it costs either hundreds, or maybe even into the thousands for basic "tune-ups", oil changes, etc. on a Ferrari?? The Camaro has never been a car that you need to rely on the dealer for ... this shouldn't change for the Camaro just because "technology" has!

BTW, great thread!!

 

I meant, 'analog' vs. 'digital'... such as digital controllers for the body, powertrain and airbags. My point was... we benefit greatly, and greatly take for granted, the utility provided by all these new controller modules.
About to get T-boned by a drunk driver? Your airbag controller will fire seat belt pretensioners and side curtain airbags before you even blink. Forget to turn your dome light off? Your body controller module will shut it off for you and save your battery. Misjudge a freeway ramp in the snow? Stability controller will help guide you safely to a stop on the shoulder. I'll eagerly trade off some mod-ability for all those functions.

 

Great thread.
Excellent concern.

This type of issue wouldn't be a concern for an Impala, Malibu, or any other buy-it-and-drive-it car. But a car like the Camaro will have alot of people wanting to change things or personalize to thier taste.

It's not an issue to do this with Mustang (Ford understands the personalization aspect of Mustang's heritage), but if GM ignores this aspect in the next Camaro, it's going to be the same situation that developed when GM refused to release engine codes to encourage the aftermarket. While Mustang gains the reputation of being mod friendly and have plenty of aftermarket resources, Camaros won't.

 

That mentality right there is the problem. I'm glad you like your radio. I don't. I want something different.

I also want to have the ability to do headers, heads, cam, blah blah blah.

As badly as I want a new Camaro, if the car turns out to be un-workable, I won't buy it. I can't live with a stock GM stereo, and I don't want a vehicle that I can't make my own. GM needs to look closely at their Cobalt line as well as Ford's Mustang and the tremendous sucess it's having in the aftermarket, and make sure that they integrate the same type of aftermarket acceptance into their plan.

 

You're neglecting something here. My 05 GTO has custom tuning options, just like the 05 Mustang. But I'm far less likely to NEED a custom tune. I've got 400HP/400TQ right out of the box! Unfortunately, 05 Stang owners are faced with a milquetoast teeny V8 upon delivery off the showroom floor. So I dispute the notion everyone will be all on fire to dive into reprogramming their powertrain controller.

And another thing. Fuel economy. With this becoming a rising concern, companies like GM are providing solutions (like active fuel mgmt) which just a few years ago, would not be feasible without the advanced digital controllers and accompanying hardware we have today. The chances of folks wanting to disable such things and toss out their MPG benefits are diminishing everyday. In fact, one of the key reasons I got my GTO was, it's the first modern muscle car with a hot enough engine that I don't feel the need to start adding parts to get more power. It's a beast right out of the gate

 

There will always be some folks thinking as you do. My point is, there are fewer and fewer of them, as OEM equipment gets better all the time and as new features require more sophisticated integration (example: E-M compatability, to avoid stereo hiss, noise, RF interference).

Sorry about my 'mentality'... but it's majority rule out in the cold cruel world.

 

i'm glad my thread is liked. and it's well... interesting... to see both viewpoints on this board... who says we're not a diverse group?

i know the issue of making the Camaro mod friendly has been brought up before, but since i heard about the new tahoes and this new module-to-module stuff it really made me concerned.

i know we risk the import loving mags like car and driver totally bashing the car if it has any ol' skool-ness about it. just like they bashed the good ol' pushrod V8. hey, i say if it ain't broke don't fix it ...but they look for any reason to bash american muscle no matter what.

i know technology is helping us... and definitely helping the average joe who knows nothing about cars. yeah all these safety features are nice and they protect us from ourselves... personally i'd rather just drive around with a helmet on all the time as opposed to having all those heavy *** side impact airbags. but that's just me and i'm kinda crazy

since Scott has been open to suggestions about this car. i just thought i'd give one last little tidbit from the enthusiast community... though it may be too late. after all, i agree, we can't have the mustang be more mod friendly and be steering even more customers that way. that would suck.

oh and i have an 05 GTO too... and the worst F*#$ing thing about that car is the goddamn torque management. every time i'm at the drag strip that damn torque management is making the car bog like a sumbitch off the line and it's costing me ET! pisses me off! as soon as i can afford a tune it's getting one. i don't plan to go crazy with modding the car. hell, i don't even plan to do headers or anything, but that godawful torque management has GOT TO GO! so i'm sorry, but i disagree. in my eyes my GTO is not exactly perfect from the factory for this gearhead. maybe for the average joe who never races and doesn't know how to drive. but to me, it definitely needs a little aftermarket massaging.

 

Congrats on the GTO! I can certainly empathize with your frustration. However - I'm on the flip side of that. My GTO recently gave me the best ET I've ever achieved with any of my cars owned so far, including my 02 LS1 Trans Am. (Keep in mind - I'm a horrible track driver and don't have time to be heavily into modding my cars). TQ mgmt isn't a big issue to me... but transmission longevity IS.