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Old Aug 25, 2010 | 06:57 AM
  #16  
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that would be some amazing stuff to see. did they redo the tail lights on the convertable, like i have seen other people say? so a track pack like the mustang may be in store?
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 07:13 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by dangalla
i find it funny that you think the camaro feels better, because of that statement i question everything else you have said. every other person that has driven the two have a completely different opinion. when you have been defeated admit defeat, otherwise you will never gain anything.
September issue of Car And Driver, page 82:

In the struggle to keep weight down, the sheetmetal on some cars today is just thick enough to hold stampings, and no thicker. Walk on the metallic roof membrane that stretches over a contemporary coupe, and you'll wind up with a top whose contours resemble the South Dakota Badlands.

But when that same thin roof span is removed from the structural equation, rigidity is likely to suffer. The latest Mustang convertible provides, sorry to say, a good illustration of this phenomenon. Ford claims a gain in torsional rigidity for the 2011 model—via a standard strut-tower brace, an extra brace connecting the chassis crossmembers, crossmember grace gusseting, and stiffened A-pillars—but the first pavement ripples we encountered provoked a festival of wiggles and shakes in the cowl and the steering column. The GT coupe is impressively stiff; the topless version is disappointingly flexible.

Mustang GT convertibles have the same spring rates as the coupes, but the shock damping is more relaxed, the rear anti-roll bar is softer, and the ragtops with the $1695 Brembo brake package roll on Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires rather than the GT coupe's Pirelli P Zeros. The Goodyears and that softer suspension are nominally there for ride quality, but their underlying function may be to mitigate chassis tremors. If that's the case, they ain't workin'. In addition to being annoying, the quivers and shakes afflicting the droptop's chassis add jitters to its responses in quick transitions, particularly on pavement with warts. Attention autocrossers: You want a Mustang with a hard roof.
The article goes on from there to address some other points, and it closes with a comment about how Mustang devotees will buy it in droves anyway, but that's the relevant part.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 07:27 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by WhiteHawk
Did someone remember to ask them to make the LS wheels an option on all the LT's for me?

-Geoff
I don't think we are allowed to answer that with a direct yes or no answer. I do however think it's safe for us to say, ...there was a lot of discussion on package content, ...new packages, etc.
Again, my apologies that I/we can't give a definitive answer.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 10:05 AM
  #19  
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its good to hear there are some good things possibly coming. it just sucks that im not buying another camaro yet, so i try not to get too excited or else ill be trading my car in.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 10:09 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by JakeRobb
September issue of Car And Driver, page 82:



The article goes on from there to address some other points, and it closes with a comment about how Mustang devotees will buy it in droves anyway, but that's the relevant part.
Thanks for the post. It's interesting that Ford messed around with the suspension. Softening the shock valving in and of itself is going to make the car feel less rigid, predictable, and give it more nose dive.

Has Ford historically tried to dumb down the suspension on Mustang convertibles?
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 11:51 AM
  #21  
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First off, Im extremely jealous of you guys.
I know you guys cant comment much on what you saw and what was discussed. I trust that the input you guys provided reflected well on what we all want/dont want.
Can you provide any insight on issues concerning weight of the vehicle and power increases on any of the engines? How about suspension refinements?
Im holding off buying one for the next year or so. Reason for that is I want to see if there are any worthwhile changes for the 2012 model year.
I plan on buying an SS or a "certain" model if it becomes available. But I think it would be very cool to offer a performance package for the V6. Make it lighter, more powerful, and a tighter suspension.

Last edited by GMRL; Aug 25, 2010 at 11:56 AM.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 12:02 PM
  #22  
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I drove the Camaro vert first, then the Mustang. I got out of the Mustang and asked Al Oppenheiser immediately... "ok, what did you do to that Mustang to sabotage it?"

He laughed.

The feel between the two was that stark. It was night and day.

Also, IRS vs live axle had alot to do with it.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 01:30 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
Has Ford historically tried to dumb down the suspension on Mustang convertibles?
I think C&D's guess was spot on:

The Goodyears and that softer suspension are nominally there for ride quality, but their underlying function may be to mitigate chassis tremors.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
Thanks for the post. It's interesting that Ford messed around with the suspension. Softening the shock valving in and of itself is going to make the car feel less rigid, predictable, and give it more nose dive.

Has Ford historically tried to dumb down the suspension on Mustang convertibles?
Actually, the changes were done to compensate for the LACK of structural ridgity due to the roof being chopped off, and to ADD some level of predictability.

The lighter Mustang structure also is part of the reason why no Mustangs can go more than 155mph or so from the factory. The compromises made to keep weight down make it a bit skittish at high speed (the current 5.0 Mustang can easily pass 165mph ungoverned).

For those of you weight watchers, as I've been asking since the new Camaro came out, if you want a lighter car, what are you prepared to give up?

Yes, you can easily take out 200 or 300 pounds out of the 5th gen, but are we prepared for the compromises?

The new Mustang is about as light as you can make a structure capable of handling over 400 pounds of torque and have sharp handling without twisting itself in half. But you have a 550 horsepower version governed to 155 mph and a convertible that (opposed to the coupe's brilliant handling) handles less than spectacular.

The Camaro convertible seems to be proving it.

BTW:

You probably don't want to know what a Camaro SS convertible weighs.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 02:25 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by guionM
For those of you weight watchers, as I've been asking since the new Camaro came out, if you want a lighter car, what are you prepared to give up?
Size.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 02:31 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by JakeRobb
Size.
Yup, size for sure.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 02:52 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by guionM
Actually, the changes were done to compensate for the LACK of structural ridgity due to the roof being chopped off, and to ADD some level of predictability.
I don't see how reducing damping, reducing rear roll bar diameter, and switching to softer sidewall tires addresses a problem with structural rigidity. Especially the dampers. Take a 4th Gen F-car on the horrendously underdamped stock DeCarbon shocks for example. People get in them and think there is a lack of chassis rigidity because of the way the car "feels." Put a set of Konis (or even Bilstein HDs) on the car and it magically feels 100x more solid.

I also have to take any C&D analysis with a grain of salt. They are journalists, not chassis engineers. If you have a wet noodle of a chassis, compromising the suspension is not going to help you. Increase the garbage in and the poor chassis will amplify it. Especially on vehicles with high unsprung weight, like a solid rear axle (eg Mustang and 4th Gen Fcar). I have a feeling that Ford has a softer ride quality target with the convertible which is why they made the changes. Their research probably indicated that in their market the majority of Mustang buyers that opt for the 'vert prefer more comfort and less handling. Which is practically the only reason you would ever choose to soften the dampers (unless you were way overdamped in the first place, but that is about 10000x more rare on any car offered for public sale then springs that are underdamped by the shocks).
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 04:28 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by guionM
For those of you weight watchers, as I've been asking since the new Camaro came out, if you want a lighter car, what are you prepared to give up?

Yes, you can easily take out 200 or 300 pounds out of the 5th gen, but are we prepared for the compromises?
Ive never liked convertibles, they just dont appeal to me.
As far as a coupe goes on the Zeta II platform, lets see.
IRS( unless you can get a lighter version like in the vette)
Id be willing to pay the additional cost of lighter components
Lighter smaller wheels. 18-19 inch wheels would still look fine on it.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 04:49 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by JakeRobb
Size.
A lot of people will jump on me for this, but I'd also be willing to sacrifice the 5th gen's body style. Don't get me wrong -- I love it, and I think it looks great. I just think that if you scale it down to a size I'd consider appropriate (3-4" less height at the roof, and proportionally smaller everywhere else), interior space and other packaging issues are going to be a big problem.

I am sure that it's possible to create a great-looking car that is free of that limitation while still being true to what a Camaro should be. Obviously it's not going to happen with the 5th gen, but it's still what I want. A new (and still jaw-dropping) design that doesn't dwarf an 18" wheel is what I want, and I would not hesitate for one moment to scrap the current exterior styling to get there.

Again, don't get me wrong. I mean no offense intended to Sangyup Lee or anyone else who helped design the exterior, and I absolutely think it's a gorgeous car.
Old Aug 25, 2010 | 06:22 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by HAZ-Matt
I have a feeling that Ford has a softer ride quality target with the convertible which is why they made the changes. Their research probably indicated that in their market the majority of Mustang buyers that opt for the 'vert prefer more comfort and less handling. Which is practically the only reason you would ever choose to soften the dampers (unless you were way overdamped in the first place, but that is about 10000x more rare on any car offered for public sale then springs that are underdamped by the shocks).
I think you hit the nail square on the head right there .



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