AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
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From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by jg95z28
Wrong. To make it cheap and affordable for most twentysomethings could harm the image GM needs to create in order for the car to be successful.
Unless you think being associated mall hair, mullets and white trash is a good thing for the Camaro's survival.
Unless you think being associated mall hair, mullets and white trash is a good thing for the Camaro's survival.
It sounds like you have an agenda for the car that you hope GM plans to follow.
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From: The Golden State
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by RussStang
I always thought for their time the 4th gen 3800 cars weren't bad at all. You could get them with a limited diff, they were cheap even brand new, and at the time most v6s at the market were making right around 200hp, only for more money.
But being realistic, it's not a car that's easy to get in and out of. Driving it is a nightmare till you really get used to it. My '97 felt far wider than my full sized Thunderbird, had horrific blind spots compared to everything else I'd owned, and had a clastraphobic back seating area. Instead of jumping into a 4th gen and instantly feeling at home, you fall into a 4th gen, and have to get used to it.
Then there's the body that didn't change (while over it's life there were 3 Mustang bodies), the fact that it was a big coupe at a time big coupe sales collasped (F-body sales fell at the same time Thuinderbird, Cougar, Regal, and even Grand Prix coupes also tumbled), and the fact that although base Camaros were in fact quicker and got better fuel economy, the public values new up to date style and a comfortable cockpit in sporty coupes.
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Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by jg95z28
Wrong. To make it cheap and affordable for most twentysomethings could harm the image GM needs to create in order for the car to be successful.
You're dead wrong about the Camaro not needing a V6. Scott has layed out all the reasons why a V6 model must be available. Horsepower alone does not sell cars. If the goal is 100,000 units a year, it isn't going to be attainable without the sales to the twenty-somethings you want to shun. Especially when a V8 model will cost more (I don't care how inexpensive the V8 is to manufacture over the V6....it has more power....you PAY for horsepower....)
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Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by jg95z28
Wrong. To make it cheap and affordable for most twentysomethings could harm the image GM needs to create in order for the car to be successful.
Should it (in 2010 dollars), compete penny for penny with a 2006 base Mustang? I don't think so either. Consider the draconian measures Ford used to get down to a $20,000 Mustang? Spartan base interior, POS thrashy worktruck V6 and and very basic chassis.
Camaro needs to be affordable, that's for sure. But it needs to be a polished product
Last edited by Z284ever; May 19, 2006 at 04:40 PM.
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Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by jg95z28
I think your missing my point. The cost difference between engine packages is not as broad as you might think. Save for the hand built LS7, there isn't much of a cost difference between building a V6 or a V8 these days. The concept itself has been advertised as a 400-hp LS2 with 30mpg highway due to AFM. When you're only talking about a $1-3k build cost difference, I'm saying unless that V6 puts out 300-hp and gets 40mpg, its not going to have a huge advantage over the base V8, unless GM decides to do a little finagling with the MSRPs. 
Furthermore, you don't want every twentysomething to be able to walk into a base Camaro. It all honesty you already have a high performance ponycar in the Cobalt SS. (Yes its not a V6, but hear me out.
) Back when the 3rd gens came out, I was in my late teens, as a twentysomething out of college with an engineering degree and a good paying job, I couldn't afford a new Camaro, even the V6 version. That's not the market GM is aiming for with the base Camaro nor has it been for over 20 years. I'm sorry if this upsets a few people around here, but those are just the facts. Yes a small percentage of twentysomethings will buy new V6 Camaros, and even a smaller percentage will be able to afford to buy a V8. But you're not the target market for this car.
But that's still not my real point. Do you you want the Camaro to be competitive in the market? Do you want it to succeed? All I'm suggesting is that we think outside the box for a moment. Just slapping in the cheapest V6 to get the base Camaro into the base V6 Mustange range isn't really healthy for the Camaro's survival. Picture this, a base V8 Camaro that puts out 100 more ponies than the V6 Mustang, yet it gets similar fuel efficiency due to modern technology. Even if this theoretical Camaro is priced $1-3k more than the Mustang, its going to sell. Please, please don't give me that BS about a V8 being more expensive to insure, as I have already proven that it is a myth. The insurance rates for a new model, which this will be, will initially be based upon the purchase price until a database is established. Just make sure your fellow Camaro buyers don't get into too many accidents.
The bottom line is, we don't need or want a cheap Camaro for the masses. If we go that route we're just dooming the old girl from the start and we may as well just kill her off now and be done with it. This car has all the potential to be a world class ponycar, not just an blue collar American ponycar. I want to see her soar with the eagles and not sitting on the ground with all the turkeys.
P.S. No I actually can't afford a $40K+ Camaro. However if that's what its going to take to get my next Z28, I'll find a way to afford one.
Furthermore, you don't want every twentysomething to be able to walk into a base Camaro. It all honesty you already have a high performance ponycar in the Cobalt SS. (Yes its not a V6, but hear me out.
) Back when the 3rd gens came out, I was in my late teens, as a twentysomething out of college with an engineering degree and a good paying job, I couldn't afford a new Camaro, even the V6 version. That's not the market GM is aiming for with the base Camaro nor has it been for over 20 years. I'm sorry if this upsets a few people around here, but those are just the facts. Yes a small percentage of twentysomethings will buy new V6 Camaros, and even a smaller percentage will be able to afford to buy a V8. But you're not the target market for this car.But that's still not my real point. Do you you want the Camaro to be competitive in the market? Do you want it to succeed? All I'm suggesting is that we think outside the box for a moment. Just slapping in the cheapest V6 to get the base Camaro into the base V6 Mustange range isn't really healthy for the Camaro's survival. Picture this, a base V8 Camaro that puts out 100 more ponies than the V6 Mustang, yet it gets similar fuel efficiency due to modern technology. Even if this theoretical Camaro is priced $1-3k more than the Mustang, its going to sell. Please, please don't give me that BS about a V8 being more expensive to insure, as I have already proven that it is a myth. The insurance rates for a new model, which this will be, will initially be based upon the purchase price until a database is established. Just make sure your fellow Camaro buyers don't get into too many accidents.
The bottom line is, we don't need or want a cheap Camaro for the masses. If we go that route we're just dooming the old girl from the start and we may as well just kill her off now and be done with it. This car has all the potential to be a world class ponycar, not just an blue collar American ponycar. I want to see her soar with the eagles and not sitting on the ground with all the turkeys.
P.S. No I actually can't afford a $40K+ Camaro. However if that's what its going to take to get my next Z28, I'll find a way to afford one.
Whether there is a huge difference in the prices of V6s or V8s or not, the fact is you always pay more for the V8. You pay more for the exclusivity, and I like that. Fewer of them. You also pay more for the chassis and drivetrain to match the output of the V8. So there's a lot more to the cost increase than just the cost of the engine itself. And there are a lot of parents who may help their late teen or early twenties child buy a car, and many of them will not even think about putting them in a 400 horse V8.
The car WILL NOT survive and may not even be built if it can't sell the numbers. The ONLY way for that to happen is with a V6 base car.
And who's talking about slapping the cheapest V6 in the car? We've been talking about a very technologically advanced V6 that would make the car be able to compete with the likes of a Nissan 350Z as well as the mustang. I don't know about you, but I'd love to see us bring some of those Nissan buyers back to an American product.
And, by the way, the reason I made the comment about you being able to afford the $40,000 car is that you
at me when I posted a few months back that I wanted GM to make the Z28 and make it affordable. I think you said something to the effect of- "Are you even going to buy one when they come out? I am, and I'm willing to pay $40,000 for it". This in response to me wanting to be able to buy a base 400 horse Z for $30,000. Sorry if your circumstances changed dude.The Camaro is not Chevrolet's Halo car in reality, and it can't sell in numbers like one.
Last edited by willz; May 19, 2006 at 04:40 PM.
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From: South Carolina
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I'm with jg. How cheap is this car supposed to be? Should every pimpley faced high school kid be able to buy one? I don't think so.
Should it (in 2010 dollars), compete penny for penny with a 2006 base Mustang? I don't think so either. Consider the draconian measures Ford used to get down to a $20,000 Mustang? Spartan base interior, POS thrashy worktruck V6 and and very basic chassis.
Camaro needs to be affordable, that's for sure. But it needs to be a polished product
Should it (in 2010 dollars), compete penny for penny with a 2006 base Mustang? I don't think so either. Consider the draconian measures Ford used to get down to a $20,000 Mustang? Spartan base interior, POS thrashy worktruck V6 and and very basic chassis.
Camaro needs to be affordable, that's for sure. But it needs to be a polished product
I'm NOT talking about it being cheap, I'm talking about it being competitively priced.
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From: Sterling Heights, MI
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I'm with jg. How cheap is this car supposed to be? Should every pimpley faced high school kid be able to buy one? I don't think so.
jg views the V6 Camaro as a throw-away car that will give it a bad reputation. On the contrary, I see a V6 Camaro being the ultimate opportunity for Chevrolet to bump up its reputation. We're not talking about saddling the car with a thrashy Ecotec for goodness sake...or the truck-based V6 the Mustang is saddled with....a smooth, sophisticated, comfortable and fun to drive V6 Camaro would do so much more for the car than "just another V8." It would show the versatility of the car and allow the base car to be compared with the best of the usual suspects in the sport coupe segment. It's an opportunity, not something to avoid!
Think about it. Other than maybe the Cobalt SS, when was the last time Chevy did a car with anything other than a V8 which most people would say is truly satisfying and fun to drive......
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Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
I don't think anyone has said "every pimply-faced high school kid should be able to buy one". Let's not get crazy here. My problem is with the "V8 only" mentality.
jg views the V6 Camaro as a throw-away car that will give it a bad reputation. On the contrary, I see a V6 Camaro being the ultimate opportunity for Chevrolet to bump up its reputation. We're not talking about saddling the car with a thrashy Ecotec for goodness sake...or the truck-based V6 the Mustang is saddled with....a smooth, sophisticated, comfortable and fun to drive V6 Camaro would do so much more for the car than "just another V8." It would show the versatility of the car and allow the base car to be compared with the best of the usual suspects in the sport coupe segment. It's an opportunity, not something to avoid!
Think about it. Other than maybe the Cobalt SS, when was the last time Chevy did a car with anything other than a V8 which most people would say is truly satisfying and fun to drive......
jg views the V6 Camaro as a throw-away car that will give it a bad reputation. On the contrary, I see a V6 Camaro being the ultimate opportunity for Chevrolet to bump up its reputation. We're not talking about saddling the car with a thrashy Ecotec for goodness sake...or the truck-based V6 the Mustang is saddled with....a smooth, sophisticated, comfortable and fun to drive V6 Camaro would do so much more for the car than "just another V8." It would show the versatility of the car and allow the base car to be compared with the best of the usual suspects in the sport coupe segment. It's an opportunity, not something to avoid!
Think about it. Other than maybe the Cobalt SS, when was the last time Chevy did a car with anything other than a V8 which most people would say is truly satisfying and fun to drive......
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Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
I don't think anyone has said "every pimply-faced high school kid should be able to buy one". Let's not get crazy here. My problem is with the "V8 only" mentality.
jg views the V6 Camaro as a throw-away car that will give it a bad reputation. On the contrary, I see a V6 Camaro being the ultimate opportunity for Chevrolet to bump up its reputation. We're not talking about saddling the car with a thrashy Ecotec for goodness sake...or the truck-based V6 the Mustang is saddled with....a smooth, sophisticated, comfortable and fun to drive V6 Camaro would do so much more for the car than "just another V8." It would show the versatility of the car and allow the base car to be compared with the best of the usual suspects in the sport coupe segment. It's an opportunity, not something to avoid!
Think about it. Other than maybe the Cobalt SS, when was the last time Chevy did a car with anything other than a V8 which most people would say is truly satisfying and fun to drive......
jg views the V6 Camaro as a throw-away car that will give it a bad reputation. On the contrary, I see a V6 Camaro being the ultimate opportunity for Chevrolet to bump up its reputation. We're not talking about saddling the car with a thrashy Ecotec for goodness sake...or the truck-based V6 the Mustang is saddled with....a smooth, sophisticated, comfortable and fun to drive V6 Camaro would do so much more for the car than "just another V8." It would show the versatility of the car and allow the base car to be compared with the best of the usual suspects in the sport coupe segment. It's an opportunity, not something to avoid!
Think about it. Other than maybe the Cobalt SS, when was the last time Chevy did a car with anything other than a V8 which most people would say is truly satisfying and fun to drive......
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
If GM want Camaro to appeal to the non-core group, then the refined 3.6L HFV6 might win over a few non-GM owners. A turbo 3.6L would be absolutely nuts.
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From: Jersey Shore
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Considering that people buy up 100k 3.5 V6 Chargers for mid 20's, Im sure that Chevy could sell a 3.6 V6 making 280-300hp with 6spd auto or manual, with the total handling package, price it at 23.9k, and win. HP a-plenty for everyone yet still civil on the road, a great compeditor against 350Z's and RX8's, that would be a deal considering that 4 years ago you couldnt touch 300hp unless you had a V8 and over 28k.
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From: Oakland, California
Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
I don't think anyone has said "every pimply-faced high school kid should be able to buy one". Let's not get crazy here. My problem is with the "V8 only" mentality.
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
jg views the V6 Camaro as a throw-away car that will give it a bad reputation. On the contrary, I see a V6 Camaro being the ultimate opportunity for Chevrolet to bump up its reputation. We're not talking about saddling the car with a thrashy Ecotec for goodness sake...or the truck-based V6 the Mustang is saddled with....a smooth, sophisticated, comfortable and fun to drive V6 Camaro would do so much more for the car than "just another V8." It would show the versatility of the car and allow the base car to be compared with the best of the usual suspects in the sport coupe segment. It's an opportunity, not something to avoid!
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
Think about it. Other than maybe the Cobalt SS, when was the last time Chevy did a car with anything other than a V8 which most people would say is truly satisfying and fun to drive......
However I will agree with you. This is why I have always said that GM needs to build an SS version of the Aveo. I think they can easily do a supercharged or turbo version and sell it for under $20k. In fact I can't see why they can't do it for under $15k. It could become the ultimate pocket rocket, improve Aveo's image and sales, and give twentysomethings their own Generation Z halo car. (Go to town with the option list like Scion, etc.) However, Camaro needs not be that car.
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Re: AE on the Camaro:it's about the V6.
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
Considering that people buy up 100k 3.5 V6 Chargers for mid 20's, Im sure that Chevy could sell a 3.6 V6 making 280-300hp with 6spd auto or manual, with the total handling package, price it at 23.9k, and win. HP a-plenty for everyone yet still civil on the road, a great compeditor against 350Z's and RX8's, that would be a deal considering that 4 years ago you couldnt touch 300hp unless you had a V8 and over 28k.