Z284ever

I've never been a believer in this theory. The only feature Mustang lacks is IRS when compared to the Camaro. But then again, Camaro lacks nav, 5 star frontal crash, interior lighting options, a Track Pack and (for some) a DOHC V8 when compared to Mustang.

To say that a sporty, V8 equipped, 2+2, with an intimate cockpit
CANNOT come in much under 3900 pounds unless common features are sacrificed or cost is exorbitant is simply untrue.

HAZ-Matt

"Even the F430 Scud has an Alcantara and carbin fiber lined interior"

Well partly lined anyway...

Big Als Z

How about instead of all this Ferrari ****, you just focus on the damn car!!
CUT THE WEIGHT OUT OF THE CAR!!
If the chassis is super strong, then make thinner floor pans.
Cut off the 50lbs of mufflers after the axle. Ive heard the SLP LM system, its not that loud or raspy since it only replaces the axle back.
two piece rotors for at least teh front
forged wheels
Aluminum control arms for the rear lower section.
Hollow sway bars front and rear
Thinner, lighter seats
NONE OF THAT involved carbon fiber or any sort of exotic materials. None of that involves removing body pannels.
Some of that is done already on GM vehicles, especially on performance vehicles. Cobalt SS, Corvette, etc etc.
Will the cost go up? Yes, but will it be that much? None of this is ok for a Z28?
GM needs to go back and redo the car, much like Holden is doing for the VF. Holden is working on trying to lighten the car up as much as possible. Why cant GM get behind it?



Yeah, but Nav isnt standard ont he Mustang, so that is worthless weight, as is some of that other stuff, but everything else matches what I said.
200lbs could be cut otu of this car if GM had the money to make it happen. Holden is already trying.

Z284ever

I wouldn't get nav either, I was just commenting on the point about features.

I suppose it's possible to throw crazy money at the Camaro to save 200 pounds. But that's not really a very efficient way to take weight out. And it probably won't make much business sense either. There are better ways to reduce mass, and for the 5th gen, that ship has sailed.
I'll be watching with interest what Holden is able to do with the VF. My guess is that any weight reductions will be modest.

Koz2

Yes, there are things that can be done to lighten the car. Will the public go for it?

Thinner floor pans --> more interior noise.
Louder lighter exhaust --> more noise in general (there are pass-by noise regulations that have to be met too)
Leightweight wheels/suspension --> more cost
Thin, light seats --> possibly less comfortable (GM already gets bashed for seat comfort and quality)

Now, I'll agree with you that if you're talking about a Z28, then those are all reasonable ideas for shedding weight, IMO. I had been coming at this thread more from the view of these changes being for all Camaros, 1LT on up. While the enthusiast may appreciate these changes, there's nothing stopping Joe Schmoe from going out and buying some lightweight wheels, or hacking off the exhaust (floorpans...well, he's probably stuck with those).

On the flip side, Sara Jane, the young professional who wants a cool looking new car isn't going to go for something that's loud and unrefined. While the V6 isn't selling a ton now, I *think* that's what GM is hoping will happen...and you aren't going to sell a bunch of 'rough around the edges' V6 Camaros to the general public.

So, do you potentially alienate a large customer base in order to appeal to a very small, specific base of enthusiasts (who will still find plenty of stuff to complain about anyway), or do you put out a product that can sell in higher volumes and let the aftermarket cater to the few enthusiasts?

Like I said, I like your ideas for the Z28, but think they would do more harm than good on the rest of the lineup.

Geoff Chadwick

They didnt. But it never made it to production, despite the effort behind it. Also notice the dual-mode hybrid truck fell flat on its face. Think we've seen the end of it? No. But the cost of the true hybrid system in a car (space and weight) far exceeds the benefits. The market wouldn't support it, so it went to the side.

So they shaved 800lb off a Camaro for a drift version. They ripped out the interior, sound insulation, crash safety structure from the bumpers, the glass is different, seats are different. There is so much different the only thing it shares is the styling lines and the unibody.
I agree with you on that. Remove all the sound insulation on the Z28. You will save about 100lb actually, far more than 20lb of even the 50lb estimates. But I think of the ZR1 as a "Corvette Z06 Superleggera" and the Z28 is the same way. It should be the hardcore version.
Cannot happen. Seats are extremely important in crash safety. However, compare the regular CTS seats versus the Recaro CTS-V seats. Removing heat and a few things could still get crash safety with a grippier seat that looked and felt the part while saving weight. Downside? Cost. But I agree a Z28 should get badass seats.
Loud enough it does not meet 50 state noise requirements. Thusly, too loud. Heck, the Z06's OEM bypass valves has a lot of townships and areas pissed off.

The Camaro does need improvement, and it does need to shed weight, and in a hurry. And it needs a better interior.

But we know your opinions on these things. Really. We know. You dont't need to keep making them.

Big Als Z

Because it was a 50-60k truck, and with people diving out of thier SUV's left and right, who would
1) buy an SUV
2) one that cost 2x the base price of a Tahoe and
3) got slightly better gas milage, but nothing compared to CUV's that could replace it ie Traverse vs Tahoe.

And BULL**** to the cost of the true hyrbid system....the cost due to the lack of one is probably hurting them more then it would to implement something across the board.
Old GM thinking, and IMO, anyone that works for GM that thinks like that should be fired. You might not agree with the cost advantage, but you have to follow the sales and technological perception you get from it.

If they can cut 800, why cant GM cut 100? You said that the sound insulation is 100lbs, and I only want to remove half. I dont want ti to sound like a tin box, but I would a certain amount in.
Combine that with the rest of the light weight additions, you could probably cut another 100lbs, cutting the weight handicap to the Mustang greatly. Imagine a 3750lbs Camaro SS? And then maybe up the power a touch, enhance the suspension and steering? the 2011 GT would look like a dud, and GM would look smart by keeping ahead of the pack.
And then that could be carried further by the Z28. 500hp Z28 carring 3700lbs could keep up with a 3900lbs GT500...for now anyway.


Cost reguarding the SS could throw it off, but cant possibly be that much, especially when the Mustang gets a price hike to cover the costs of the new stuff.
Id love to weight a CTS-V Recaro vs a Camaro SS's seat.

Most states say 100dB's @ 1000rpm. Bypass doesnt open up to 3500rpm. They have zero ground to stand on.
Ill keep saying it as long as there will always be

1fastdog

I haven't really looked at the fed regs regarding noise levels allowed, but I believe it's 72 dB @ 35mph... and there are other regs for different speeds and throttle openings...

Intake sound can also fit into meeting regs. There is also a tolereance level for customer satisfaction. Where a performance mided customer might like an unsilenced intake characteristic, others might view a louder intake as a design flaw.

The butterfly option exhaust for vettes, as an example, is a solution to meet fed, local, and customer expectations.

A quick look at the intake muffler chambers added to the intake tract is but one example of meeting the regs.

Motorcycles and heavier duty vehicles get a higher db floor in the regs.

1fastdog

Ah... but the tolerance can be swung by the target market regarding price floor and "refinement" expectations held by the majority of that target group.

Interior sound level was an area of dissatisfaction for some 5th gen Z06 buyers... as was a preferance for the hatch roofline over the notch rear roofline.

At least consider that money is always an object in a vehicle purchase. Really lightweight content is cost possible but not necessarily justified in the mind of the greater target group. The largest market for a "Superlegerra" has to be tempered to meet "must have" parameters.

Even among brands that one might think there's an audience for a "no holds barred" performance offering there can be head scratcher outcomes. The Ferrari California has found greater acceptance than the 430 Scuderia. Ferrari has not dropped out of doing auto shows because their market is unaffected by the present economic situation. Merely "building it" does not ensure "they will come".

IMO, the upcomming 458 Italia will move some units for Ferrari. It has the performance and it looks more like a Ferrari "should" than the Cali or 599.

You see, even in market where the brand equity is superb, hitting the note that will sell the most is a tough play.