Here's my situation. I'm planning a TT build of the LT1 currently in my 83 z28. while looking at all the room i have for turbos, piping ect, i found little room for an efficient fmic, so i'm going to go with an awic, they're better anyways. now, being the lazy person i am, i like the best of both worlds. TT or not, i want my air conditioning. Now's where it gets interesting. Since i work as a tech at a carrier transicold dealer, i have access to any form of a/c stuff imaginable. I'm thinking of adding my awic idea directly to my a/c, kinda like the killer chiller, but not, and way better. I want to add a separate a/c high side circuit to directly chill the coolant in the reservoir for my awic. think of it like how a drinking fountain works. crappy warm water in, cooled to ridiculously low temps, shot back out (in this case, to the charge cooler). thinking about using r404 as a refrigerant. it's used in all otr refer trailers now and can cool to about -20 quite well. how sick would that be? running intake temps well below freezing. think of how much boost can be run compared to a (no offense) crappy air to air. or how much extra advance you can run? i wouldn't be surprised if i could run up to 17-18* advance. Even the fog from the condensing air can be taken beneficial the same way water injection is. I can't think of any real bad side effects from running this low IAT's except during warm up, but you can turn your a/c off for that, and during wot runs.

 

With this idea, you sound like a very ambition person to me.

I think the law of diminishing returns comes into play with this (i.e. -100 degree IAT's doesn't just mean you'd double your timing)
The more BTDC you fire, the less prone detonation from hot air is because there's less cylinder pressure. Your air charge would be much more dense (and therefore more volatile) so you might actually have to run less timing. Every 30 degreed F drop in IAT = 1 more psi of manifold pressure.
Just a thought.

 

PS there is tons of room for a great front mount on a 3rd gen!

Sounds like a great idea!

Jay

 

the whole point is that fmic's suck compared to a properly done awic. now, connect it to a bitchin a/c and it works even better. it's outlandish because that's exactly the point of this thread, but it has been done. if you've ever seen the "killer chiller", it's essentially what i want to do, but not as good. they're running it inline on the low side of the system with their evaporator and causing all sorts of superheat problems, but they are running about 50* intake temps and some people are running 12-15lbs boost with 17* timing. although i would be running a denser, and therefore more potent charge, there i not enough heat build up to cause detonation like a fmic would have. Also, where does this 30* equal 1psi come from? every 30* drop=1psi, or 1 more psi you can run? unless you have a pt chart or other reference, I'll have to call bs. I fully understand the fact that decreasing iat's to -100* doesn't mean doubling my timing, but don't take me as a fool, 17-18* timing is very possible under boost, you just don't realize what can be done with the proper equipment. fmic's are laughable junk, save it for your girlfriend's honda. an awic is the only logical approach for effectively cooling an intake charge, and chilling the water with your a/c makes perfect sense to boost its performance. now "mike gyver", grow some ***** and think outside the box for once, or think about changing your name. i think "The Polygamist Camaro" has a good tone to it.

 

Methanol injection /thread

 

Damn!!Take it down a few thousand feet.

 

Ya really! I just read all that, dont come on here talking about something you think will work and ask for opinions and when people give them you tell them to grow *****?

From what i see is most of the people in this thread have a turbo'd LT1 and I look at yours and see a bolt on stock lt1...hmmm

Jay

 

sorry, i tend to have a short fuse once first blood is drawn. Yes, i do ask for others' opinions, but i don't take kindly to insults when i mean no harm. I was just posting something i thought would be neat. As far as my car goes I will be the first person to tell you my camaro isn't turbo'd or supercharged, but it doesn't have to be to visit this forum. I'm planning on TT'ing it in the future, and thats exactly what was outlined in the OP. I apologize again for being harsh and direct, but my comment stands for Gyver to grow a pair and think outside the box, however mean it may sound. I am thinking outside the box with what i plan to do with my car, and i think it would be really cool to see it done. I was only wondering what some other people thought about my idea.

 

so you want to use a AC system to cool your intake charge

how much more power are you going to make due to the super cool air charge?

how much power is it going to take to turn that AC compressor at max engine speed? Im assuming that you are going to lock the AC clutch up so that it can run at WOT or it wont cool anything

how much extra heat is going to be made by the AC system that will then be transferred to the cooling system?

if something like that would work...how many WOT 4th gear runs will it make before the whole system is heat soaked?

if the AC sysem in the car can only cool a low volume of air down to 45*-50* deg...how is it going to cool 1200cfm to 20*

 

It comes directly from Active Radiators website, makers of high quality intercoolers...

In most cases returning the air to within 90% or so of ambient is just fine for eliminating any hotair related detonation issues. To most people it's not worth fabricating a refridgerant system to supercool their intake charge when you can just turn up the boost 2 psi to compensate.
An air-to-air IC is one non-moving part that just sits there and does it job, needless to say a water-to-air system is heavier and much more complicated, You seem like a smart enough guy that we shouldn't have to weigh obvious pros and cons for you.

Nothing in my original post was in any way derogitory.
If you can't conduct yourself in a civil manner, you'll find that myself and most other people on this forum will not take their time to add their opinions, or textbook basics, to your topic.

 

In my idea, the a/c system uses the refrigerant to cool down coolant, then put into a high eff water to air. if the return water is too hot, it can be directed to a mini cooler with it's own fan before going back to the cooling reservoir. I'm exaggerating with 20* intake temps, it would end up being around 45-50. there's alot of different refrigeration techniques that can be used to chill coolant down to super low temps really well. one way is not to use r134a. it works good for cooling down a car cabin, but not for what i want to do. I'll probably use r404a. it's a blended refrigerant with a better low temp rating. it's used on the newer refer units i work on. I'm not too sure how much extra power this will give me, but the cooler charge and extra timing advance should give me alot. I've heard an a/c compressor takes anywhere from 7 to 10 hp to turn, but the loss is negligible to the extra power made. the extra heat made by the a/c system would be only a little more than stock. the condenser has a fixed efficiency and can only shed so much heat. the extra heat comes from r404 having a broader heat range than r134a. the a/c compressor will turn off at wot, and the coolant can continue to run through the cooler until a certain temp is reached. then the compressor is forced on. I agree that an air to air that can cool an intake charge to within 10% of ambient (or at least thats what i thought you meant) drastically reduces the chance of detonation, but it's hard pressed to find one that has anything above 65-70% efficiency. when designing a turbo system, boost is a by-product of careful selection of the turbocharger by comparing a compressor map to necessary engine air intake for the hp you want to make. by reducing the intake temp, you have the ability to run a denser charge and more timing advance, more power for the same boost. By just upping your boost a few psi, you risk running your turbocharger outside it's designed range of max efficiency. Plus, you may have to pull even more timing because now that the turbo is running outside the area of it's max efficiency, it's making your intake temps even higher, with a CAC that isn't that efficient to begin with. Not to mention a less dense charge. The complexity is a downfall as well as it's weight, but that's a con i'm willing to live with. Just switching to an aftermarket k member can offset the weight. I apologize for earlier, I got out of hand. Wont happen again.