do you think all the trash that ford is talking about the deceased camaro will...

Do you think all the trash that ford is talking about the deceased camaro will speed up its resurrection? Ive read a few different articles on the new mustang and here and there ford will bring up a comment on how the camaro is gone because it sucked or something. They talk on why the went retro instead of modern and they reply: "we went retro simply because the guys across town decided to go modern, and they're gone now..."(well something along those lines) and they continue to go on saying, "There's simply no meaningful reason to hook your claw into a Firebird or a Camaro, simply because there is no Firebird or Camaro left in those vehicles." And these words came from J Mays... also they claim that the mustang is the most famous nameplate in America...and so on and so forth. And I read different things along the same lines in other mags and articles... Im just wondering since the mustang is getting so much positive publicity and shoving gm's face in it if the executives at GM will wake up and make the next camaro/firebird a priority or at least put it on their "to do" list for the near(not 2-4 years from now but near)future. Im not hurting to buy a new car right now because Im happy with mine and can beat most any car on the road, but pretty soon the mustang is going to be faster then even the LS1 and I dont want to have to mod the hell outta my car to keep up! Please GM, do something!!:mad:

I hope so.

We should probably start a thread were we can reference deragatory Camaro quotes from FORD guys(engineers, execs and such). We should then e-mail copies of these quotes to any and all GM execs in hopes that it pisses them off!! :mad:

Why bother? They chose to discontinue it, and now they're reaping the rewards, or lack thereof. I hope they feel ashamed but I suspect they are totally oblivious as to what is going wrong. Casually kill one of your most recognized and beloved brands without a second thought and without any consultation with your customers and then expect the people to migrate to FWD sedans and SUV's? Great ideas! Great ideas for going out of business.

Trash talk between camps has been thrown back and forth since Camaro's debut in '67...it's nothing new. I remember an article in Car and Driver I believe in the '80's, IROC Z vs. 5.0 where GM engineers proclaimed the 5.0 the "best damn Fairmont ever." And so it goes...trash talk from Ford isn't going to put the wheels in motion, or get them moving faster. Sales will.

I find it funny that they say one of the reasons they went retro is because Camaro went modern and was gone.

Well, I got news for them... Mustang wasn't retro (yes we could debate there are some cues, and there are, but the current Stang is not a full blown retro-mobile) and it was/is pretty darn successful.

That has to be the lamest excuse Ive heard yet for bad retro styling.... "IMO" of course ;)

Originally posted by Darth Xed
I find it funny that they say one of the reasons they went retro is because Camaro went modern and was gone.

Well, I got news for them... Mustang wasn't retro (yes we could debate there are some cues, and there are, but the current Stang is not a full blown retro-mobile) and it was/is pretty darn successful.

That has to be the lamest excuse Ive heard yet for bad retro styling.... "IMO" of course ;)

OMG!!! Darth had a Freudian slip... Mustang and "not retro" together! Even if it wasn't about the '05's!
Darth - I am warning you now that I have bookmarked, saved-as, and screen-captured that post for future reference in our "retro" conversations!!! LOL!!! :D
J/K!

Seriously, I do agree with you - the '02 Mustang was not retro in my eyes at all, no more than any other model, so for a Ford guy to insinuate that it was is wrong.

However, I posted a few days ago that I could see virtually nothing in an F4 that reminded me of an F1. Maybe that is what the Ford guy in this article (a link would be great BTW) should have said in some way. The F4 lost the significant styling and design cues that linked it to it's 1st gen. Like you guys have said, the car has evolved, and the links may be seen through the evolution from one car to the next, but not everyone in the world knows what all 4 gens of F-body looked like and what cues changed on each one. Anybody can look at a Mustang and see 1st gen in it - instantly bonding them as common family at a sheer glance. Recognition is very important in this modern car world - we all know that.

Originally posted by ProudPony
OMG!!! Darth had a Freudian slip... Mustang and "not retro" together! Even if it wasn't about the '05's!
Darth - I am warning you now that I have bookmarked, saved-as, and screen-captured that post for future reference in our "retro" conversations!!! LOL!!! :D
J/K!

:o :D LOL!



Seriously, I do agree with you - the '02 Mustang was not retro in my eyes at all, no more than any other model, so for a Ford guy to insinuate that it was is wrong.

However, I posted a few days ago that I could see virtually nothing in an F4 that reminded me of an F1. Maybe that is what the Ford guy in this article (a link would be great BTW) should have said in some way. The F4 lost the significant styling and design cues that linked it to it's 1st gen. Like you guys have said, the car has evolved, and the links may be seen through the evolution from one car to the next, but not everyone in the world knows what all 4 gens of F-body looked like and what cues changed on each one. Anybody can look at a Mustang and see 1st gen in it - instantly bonding them as common family at a sheer glance. Recognition is very important in this modern car world - we all know that.

I guess you could counter my following arguement with "Time have changed" , but the F3 and, really F2 didn't have obvious styling cues taken from the F1 either, and both were madly successful... :)

And, by the same arguement, neither did the 79-93 Mustang! :D

I read the same article (Automobile Magazine, February 2003, on stands now) and it's amazing how 2 different people can read the same thing and come away with 2 different angles to what was printed.

1st of all, J. Mays does not call Mustang retro. Although in this interview it was hinted at, in other interviews he doesn't call his work retro, and in the '05 Mustang's case, in my opinion he's right.

The point J. Mays was making in that article is that Mustang has never forgot it's heritage while Camaro has and that's what led to it's demise (basically the point alot of retro Camaro fans here have made many times over the past couple of years).

The "claws" comment in full context was this: You can go to a Mustang, and you can associate the '05 Mustang (as well as the current one and most all before it) to the original. I think his words were something like hooking it to it's heritage. Something he said you couldn't do with the Camaro, because it's designers was always trying to go more 'modern' at the expense of it's heritage, till there was nothing left.

It wasn't a slam by a long shot. It was him expressing his opinion as to why Mustang is more succesful than the now deceased Camaro.

He didn't say anything alot of you haven't already said in stronger terms, so let's loose the 'oh I'm so offended' act.

Ford's SVT boss, John Coletti, is the guy at Ford that takes pleasure in talking smack about GM (frequently pointing out in very colorful ways that you can't compare a 2003 Mustang to a 2003 Camaro... I think you catch his drift). Classic Coletti:

PUTC: Do you have any plans to counter the 8.1 liter engine that Chevrolet is showing in its Coolside II concept here at SEMA?

JC: There isn't a Chevy truck here that could tangle with our engines. And you can tell (Jon) Moss that I said that! Oh, and its got to be a production vehicle. Because if he wants to do prototype to prototype we can play that game too.

PUTC: Is it interesting to see (GM's) approach to the latest SS concept?

JC: Is it here? Or haven't they shown it yet?

I'll be honest with you. We have been waiting for somebody to come in and compete with the Lightning.

Colorful guy. :eek:

(the whole interview: http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/autoshows/sema2000/ford/coletti.html )

BTW: The hoopla surronding Mustang has made a difference. :D

I read an article complarig the svt cobra to a camaroSS. And they starting off giving props to chevy. They said that chevy was a good long lasting competator, gm built good, high quality cars. There'd be no market if GM and ford didnt produce the cars. There was a good lengthy paragraph just saying good things about the death of the camaro...

now obciously there have been alot of negative things said...
but I think as long as we keep the camaro alive, they'll do something to bring it back. Anyone remember the dodge stealth? Dont hear that name too much anymore, 8 years after its been taken off the market... I dont want that to happen with such a legend of a car!

That is why I said that Gm is looking like a losser in front of everybody who knows about the history of Mustang vs. Camaro

ot is a shame , and Ford is kicking sand in GM face with the new Mustang:rolleyes:

guionM - Thanks for the info on this "majic article"... I'll try to pick one up next time I'm in Wally-World.

Having not read it yet, I can only go on what's said in this thread, but your perception and interpretation of the comments sound more "realistic" for modern press material.

And BTW, I couldn't agree more about Coletti...
You could make a career out of following this guy around and quoting the smack he puts out! But I for one - LOVE IT! In the 10-years that SVT has been going now, they HAVE made a difference in Ford's perceived performance capabilities, and Coletti is no small part of that. What's most exciting about it is that (for the time being anyways) Bill Ford is writing checks to back Coletti's comments up! They seem to have a good chemistry together.

Unlike Lutz - with his fighter-jets and speed-laden history - Bill Ford has no "performance history", just a passion for the Mustang and Ford's racing heritage... as he should. He's letting Coletti do his performance talking for him. He is passionate about performance though, and especially the Mustang. It takes big brass ones to go on national TV and say "If I could have only one car, I'd want a red Mustang convertible - one with a throaty V8 and a great stereo." And FWIW - HE HIMSELF authorized and basically wrote the que-cards for those commercials. He refused to due them unless he got to say what he wanted to say, not what lawyers and script-writers told him to. He was interviewed and questioned about just that topic by Dateline back in July or August of last year I beleive.

I would have NEVER thought I'd see things like they are now between Ford and GM - never. Ford performance is on a major tear right now, and GM is taking over Truckville. :rolleyes:
Like I've said before... it's great to be on top again, but it's very bittersweet to be "performing" against no competition. :(

Originally posted by Z28Wilson
Trash talk between camps has been thrown back and forth since Camaro's debut in '67...it's nothing new. I remember an article in Car and Driver I believe in the '80's, IROC Z vs. 5.0 where GM engineers proclaimed the 5.0 the "best damn Fairmont ever." And so it goes...trash talk from Ford isn't going to put the wheels in motion, or get them moving faster. Sales will.

Yea but trash talking makes for some great innovations and compitition between the mustang and f-body... because GM can ALWAYS come back in the end and say, well our cars are faster than yours :p ...you talk trash and push us, we'll talk more and push harder... but now that we dont have the fbody anymore, GM has no way to defend itself, nothing to say...it just dropped out of the race and left no replacement...and ford is winner by default. I would hope this pissed someone besides me off

Originally posted by ProudPony
[BI ...would have NEVER thought I'd see things like they are now between Ford and GM - never. Ford performance is on a major tear right now, and GM is taking over Truckville. :rolleyes:
( [/B]

Trucksville? Thought Dodge was it's Mayor? :D

I dont have a link to the article so Ill just type it straight from the magazine....


DEFENDING THE PAST : J Mays wanted to echo the 1967-70 Mustang, and the critics be damned.

The new design of the Mustang unabashedly harks back to the Mustangs of the late 1960s, and although J Mays claims that those who've seen it love it, he does appear braced for a critical backlash. "By the way, I'm used to talking a complete beating on the whole retro thing," he says at the start of an interview in his new office at Ford's product development center. "So I could care less what you write, because our customers love this stuff." Nevertheless, he made his case for a new Mustang that references the old:
"Whan we set out to do this car, we said, well, there are a number of ways we can go. We can do a pure retro car, where we say we're doing a reissue, as we're doing with the GT40. We could do something a bit more like the Thunderbird, which is taking iconic cues off the vehicle but filling in the blacks with modern sheetmetal. Or we could just go modern.
"What we ended up doing was taking the same, or simular, route that we did with the Thunderbird. Which is to say, this car's going to have very modern surfacing on it; this car's going to have a very modern stance and wheel proportion; but we're going to keep the iconic cues and do a modern update of those. I can give you an argument for why we did that very simply: Because the guys across town decided to go modern and they're gone now."
"There's no meaningful reason to hook your claw into a Firebird or a Camaro, simply because there's no Firebird or Camaro left in those vehicles. They became something else. And they became something else because, apparently, then the design teams got a hold of them, they thought that history started with them, instead of history starting with a nameplate."
"I think that Mustang is arguably the most famous nameplate in America. The Chevy guys would probably say Corvette, but in terms of sheer passion for a high volume vehicle, it's Mustang. And the amount of equity built up over fourty years tells me that you owe that customer base, and the sons and daughters of that customer base, a vehicle that continues the story."
"The design DNA and visual makeup of the Mustang aren't something we have the luxury of throwing away. So we have to act as a curator i norder to preserve that but at the same time continue to update."

i think ford doesn't have any more cookies in their cookie jar,
****me so hungy****(cookie-monster)

"There's no meaningful reason to hook your claw into a Firebird or a Camaro, simply because there's no Firebird or Camaro left in those vehicles. They became something else. And they became something else because, apparently, then the design teams got a hold of them, they thought that history started with them, instead of history starting with a nameplate."

"There's no meaningful reason to hook your claw into a Firebird or a Camaro, simply because there's no Firebird or Camaro left in those vehicles. They became something else. And they became something else because, apparently, then the design teams got a hold of them, they thought that history started with them, instead of history starting with a nameplate."

The common denominator between all Camaro generations is PERFORMANCE. That is its heritage, that's all I expect.

I don't necessarily buy into the fact that you have to have 'x' amount of nameplate-specific cues to be successful. All you have to look at is the 2nd and 3rd Gen cars which really evolved away from the 1st Generation. The 4th I felt was a very natural progression from the 3rd and kept some of the things that made the 3rd successful. The problem was NOT just in the styling which I admit was not for everyone. The car's whole setup just did not appeal to people the same way it did in 1982. Low slung, low seating, etc. Camaro and Firebird, as great as I thought they were, just didn't adapt quite enough.

I like how F**d likes to talk **** like that, how about we do some, like how the other car was better and better performing like 3/4's or more of the time since the 66 Camaro introduction, and it beat them in sales enough too?! Besides the fact the GM took its own car out of the game like a buch of idiots, F**d had nothing to do with it. ;)

But amazingly, I have to agree with him on some things. The 4th Gen strayed way too much from the looks of the Camaro lookswise ext. and int. And what is up with the sound of the LS1?? From the 1st Gen-Third Gen, the dash was similar, flat top with big sporty round gauges. 4th Gen, high dash with big crease (try seeing your hood) and regular looking gauges that no Camaro had before besides 90-92 cars being not entirely round and not apart from each other. IMO the dash would've looked better in black or at least a few other colors. Exterior, the 4th Gens body has nothing to do with a Camaro besides the dimensions which are 2nd Gen-like, it is completey round space-style with no lines, sharp creases, or flares. Instead there's body intergration and gaps all over the place because of it. The only thing that ties it in with a Camaro is the LT1's somewhat Third Gen-like front bumper, and the LS1's 2nd Gen-like hood. The 2nd Gen was very different looking than the 1st Gen, its size was different, body was pretty different, and the bumpers were different. But, body creases and small cues were kept. When the Third Gen came along, they mixed the 1st and 2nd Gen with some new and got the Third Gen, and it was the looks winner. Thirds are the closest Gen to the 1st in dimensions and weight. The same body creases were kept, it was given a hood that looks like a larger 1st Gen hood, subtle later 2nd Gen cues in the taillights, front and rear bumpers, and new designs that still looked "Camaro." In 85 a small redesign was done to both bumpers, GFX, hood, and taillights to give it a more aerodynamic/cooler look although the early 1's were really nice too but it still kept that look, even 91-92 when the GFX were changed and a different spoiler was added. (I don't like 91-92's much and the 90's dash either though) Then the 4th Gen comes along and changed way too much as described before. And the Firebird LOL, it's even more difficult to find previous Gen's in than the Camaro for both LT1's and LS1's besides the wierd shaped taillights. When I saw 4th's new in 93, I pretty much knew what was gonna go on, and it turns out I was right. Like the F**d dude said, u need cues and ties to what the car is. I mean look how excited every1 is over the new "GTO." :rolleyes:

Just a couple of comments about John Coletti.....

I love hearing and reading his comments, he is the consummate car guy....he just happens to work for Ford.

And don't get so offended by what Coletti might say about Jon Moss...I understand that they are good friends.

ReznorZ28 - Thanks for taking the time to type all that in! I know that was a pain in the arse, but I appreciate it!

Originally posted by ReznorZ28
The new design of the Mustang unabashedly harks back to the Mustangs of the late 1960s, and although J Mays claims that those who've seen it love it, he does appear braced for a critical backlash. "By the way, I'm used to talking a complete beating on the whole retro thing," he says at the start of an interview in his new office at Ford's product development center. "So I could care less what you write, because our customers love this stuff."
BANK ON IT. I've said before, Ford has the research to show that these cars WILL SELL. The concepts were done almost a year ago, and we all know they haven't been sitting in a dark room in a bank vault. They have been researching customer response and tweaking details. I can not cite another car company that puts as much effort into giving the loyals what they want (if possible) than Ford has done with the Mustang. Since the car almost single-handedly pulled Ford through the recession in the early '90s -with NO advertising- they have really given the car it's due. Ford sponsors Mustang shows, sends factory reps and concepts to regional and national events, always has free handouts/posters/surveys, utilizes MCA, NMRA, and other big Mustang clubs for ideas, etc. It's mind-boggling that a company would do this for a bunch of enthusiasts - lots of which admittedly won't buy new! KUDOS to them for it too.



Originally posted by ReznorZ28 "What we ended up doing was taking the same, or simular, route that we did with the Thunderbird. Which is to say, this car's going to have very modern surfacing on it; this car's going to have a very modern stance and wheel proportion; but we're going to keep the iconic cues and do a modern update of those. I can give you an argument for why we did that very simply: Because the guys across town decided to go modern and they're gone now."
I have no idea how he can say that factually. It may be his hunch? I too speculate that the "loss of identity" hurt Camaro and Firebird sales, but I can't prove it. I do think that he is on the right track in acknowledging the styling cues that set the model apart. As was said before, the Vette still has them too, and it's still alive and doing well... so for 40+ year-old-cars, the Mustang and Vette are about it, eh? Coincidence?


Originally posted by ReznorZ28 "There's no meaningful reason to hook your claw into a Firebird or a Camaro, simply because there's no Firebird or Camaro left in those vehicles. They became something else. And they became something else because, apparently, when the design teams got a hold of them, they thought that history started with them, instead of history starting with a nameplate."
Hmmm... history beginning with the name... interesting concept.
This guy... MELIKES. :cool:

Originally posted by ReznorZ28 "I think that Mustang is arguably the most famous nameplate in America. The Chevy guys would probably say Corvette, but in terms of sheer passion for a high volume vehicle, it's Mustang. And the amount of equity built up over fourty years tells me that you owe that customer base, and the sons and daughters of that customer base, a vehicle that continues the story."
I recall a guy posting on this board a while back that said basically he wasn't so torn up about the Camaro being gone for himself... he already had one or two. What bugged him was that he couldn't buy a new one today, hold onto it for 16 years, and pass it down to his son like his dad did for him. He had a kid like 2 y/o, I beleive he said. This is where it hits home... the loyalty. I am SOOO glad to see Mays include the son/daughter thing in his equation, because I think it DEFINITELY accounts for lots of model loyalty and repeat buys, not to mention brand loyalty.

Originally posted by ReznorZ28 "The design DNA and visual makeup of the Mustang aren't something we have the luxury of throwing away. So we have to act as a curator in order to preserve that but at the same time continue to update."
Some of you guys have been asking the question... "What do you do after retro?" THERE'S THE ANSWER.
I don't think you emulate a '67 this year, and redesign to emulate a '70 three years from now, etc. I think there are almost as many possibilities to modernize the '05 concept in a few years as any other car out there... but the next iteration will likely have side scoops, hood scoops, running horse in the grill, and 3-bar taillamps... IN SOME VARIED FORM OR SHAPE, just like the '05 and the '65 both do! ;)

Overall, this interview sounds like Mays is rolling "right down my alley". I hope the guy does well for the Mustang. It certainly pleases me to hear that he has respect for it's past, and understands what it means to pass things on from generation to generation... in traits, cars, and relationships.

Originally posted by ReznorZ28
Because the guys across town decided to go modern and they're gone now."


This is the comment that I have the biggest problem with.
Several years ago..when F-body sales started going south...anyone that you might talk to from GM would blame it on Camaro's "forward" styling.

What an easy whipping boy that was, "we are sooo leading edge that we went too far". I always saw the 4th gen as more retro in a early '80s sort of way.

Merely adding a steeply raked windshield and pointy nose does not in and of itself give you a modern design. Modern proportions is a good starting point for modern design.

J Mays may be baiting us and GM with that and other comments.

He and Ford do retro well. I'd bet he'd like to see the next Camaro be retro. Ford will always out-retro Chevy.

But if Camaro comes out with a forward thinking, beautifully proportioned modern design, (with some heritage cues)....Mustang and J Mays have something to worry about.

Originally posted by Z284ever
But if Camaro comes out with a forward thinking, beautifully proportioned modern design, (with some heritage cues)....Mustang and J Mays have something to worry about.

Ford stole this guy from VW. He was also stolen from Audi.
Obviously, money talks to this guy.
Who's to say Lutz and crew don't pop open the piggy bank and steal him from Ford?

Imagine, sometime in 2006 -
Headline-
It's back!
It has refound it's roots and is back with a vengeance and the looks to boot!
Your NEW '07 Camaro - designed by J Mays, the guy who did the awesome Mustang back in '05 and the NewBeetle in 2000!!!
Stylishly reminiscent of the '67, yet with the rake, stance, and attitude of the '70 Z/28. It's all here, waiting to come roaring back into life right in your own driveway! The all-new '07 Camaro.

Hmmm...
Is it REALLY impossible... :p

Just food for thought... :cool:

Originally posted by IZ28
look how excited every1 is over the new "GTO." :rolleyes:

The ONLY reason people are excited is the F-body is gone.This is obvious,And it wouldnt be here if there "were" a F-body.
Anyone remember the GTO concept they had at the NAIAS back in 98-00?(I cant recall the year.GM knew the Camaro was going to die way back then.Tis wierd isnt it.

Actually GM has their own design guru, stolen from Chrysler (can't recall his name...Nesbitt?), who is/was neck deep in Camaro designs & Chevrolet heritage. He's the guy who had a hand in the PT Cruzer & some of Chrysler's other notable cars.

BTW, Audi & VW are the same company, along with Porsche. :)

Originally posted by ProudPony
Ford stole this guy from VW. He was also stolen from Audi.
Obviously, money talks to this guy.
Who's to say Lutz and crew don't pop open the piggy bank and steal him from Ford?

Imagine, sometime in 2006 -
Headline-
It's back!
It has refound it's roots and is back with a vengeance and the looks to boot!
Your NEW '07 Camaro - designed by J Mays, the guy who did the awesome Mustang back in '05 and the NewBeetle in 2000!!!
Stylishly reminiscent of the '67, yet with the rake, stance, and attitude of the '70 Z/28. It's all here, waiting to come roaring back into life right in your own driveway! The all-new '07 Camaro.

Hmmm...
Is it REALLY impossible... :p

Just food for thought... :cool:

It is possible. There are rumors that GM is considering snatching J Mays from Ford to replace Wayne Cherry as GM head of design when he retires.

Originally posted by guionM
Actually GM has their own design guru, stolen from Chrysler (can't recall his name...Nesbitt?),

If they were designing a new Camaro right now..Bryan Nesbitt would have a tremendous amount of influence over it's styling.

And what are his favorite Camaros? '67 and '68.

I like those 1st Gen years the best too. I hope he likes the Third's!! :D

I think GM should at least give john Cafaro a shot at it too...

He did the 93 Camaro and the 97 Corvette among other things....

No way is a 4th Gen designer getting his hands on another Camaro!!

RP told me once that the dude that designed the 4th Gen was the same guy who did the Third Gen, (that really amazed me) and it was not the name you just said, I don't recall who it was.

Originally posted by IZ28
No way is a 4th Gen designer getting his hands on another Camaro!!

RP told me once that the dude that designed the 4th Gen was the same guy who did the Third Gen, (that really amazed me) and it was not the name you just said, I don't recall who it was.


You are wrong. Do a web search on John Cafaro and you will see tons of articles about him designing the 4th gen, and the C5 Corvette.

Cafaro did the F4, the C5, the new Impala and now he's doing trucks.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Cafaro did the F4, the C5, the new Impala and now he's doing trucks.

You are right... I know he did Avalacnhe as well...

I generally like his work... I think he should get a shot at drawing up his ideas for a 5th Gen...

Originally posted by Z284ever
It is possible. There are rumors that GM is considering snatching J Mays from Ford to replace Wayne Cherry as GM head of design when he retires.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by IZ28
No way is a 4th Gen designer getting his hands on another Camaro!!

RP told me once that the dude that designed the 4th Gen was the same guy who did the Third Gen, (that really amazed me) and it was not the name you just said, I don't recall who it was.

I dont know about everone else, but I really liked the way the 4th gens looked... the lt1's had an uncanny resemlence to the 3rd gens but with an more modern look, which was refreshing. I also liked the facelift they recieved in 98... Im pretty much a lover of all years of camaros except the mid and late 2nd gen.

I wouldnt mind giving the 4th gen designer another chance, but he is going to have to design something very powerful looking, modern, yet timeless...something that is not going to look old fast...

:mad:
you guys should read that Bob Lutz said that the camaro will take a 30 year nap. no use debating this anymore give it a rest

I hope RP see's this post and repiles. Doh, I just can't recall the dudes name.

IMO, GM needs alot of NEW designers, or some from way back that know what they're doing.

IZ28: Jerry Palmer / Bill Porter / Roger Hughet / John Schinella, was it any of those?

it was,,,,,,,,,,,,,D*R*U*M*R*O*L*L,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Jerry Palmer.

Exactly Z284!! That's the name I was thinking of/told by RP. :)

People... Jerry Palmer DID NOT design the 4th gen Camaro.

Jerry Palmer did the 1982 Camaro, and the 1987 Beretta among others...

See link:

http://www.corvettemuseum.com/library-archives/hof/palmer.shtml

For the ump-teenth time, JOHN CAFARO did the design of the 1993 Camaro and the 1997 Corvette...

Well, they should have had him design the 4th Gen too. :) :D

But I'm sure RP said in the E-Mail it was him. Maybe they worked together on it?? I know he doesn't work for GM anymore though, I wish. I also like the design of C4's the best out of all of them.

Jerry Palmer = 3rd Gen

John Cafaro = 4th gen

Originally posted by Z284ever
Jerry Palmer = 3rd Gen

John Cafaro = 4th gen

Now we know who needs to be made a saint and who needs to be drawn & quartered! :p

Originally posted by danno02SS
The common denominator between all Camaro generations is PERFORMANCE. That is its heritage, that's all I expect. :bow: Hell Yeah!:metal:

That is what the next GTO is. Thats not the way to do it.

Originally posted by kizz
Now we know who needs to be made a saint and who needs to be drawn & quartered! :p

You'd be drawing & quartering the wrong guy.

John Cafaro worked for studio boss Chuck Jordan. It was Jordan's idea to stop everything in the studio, and take a design complete 4th generation Camaro, and graft the lay flat windshield on.

Yes, the reason the engine compartment looks like it was done as an afterthought is because.... it was!

Freezing the design studio may have also contributed to the years of delay of the C5 Corvette. If it wasn't for the delay & the cost of the change ($20,000,000 :eek: ) Corvette may have been in a position to continue towards production when GM began cancelling and delaying programs in the very early 90s, which killed Corvette more than once.

Ironically, his decision also contributed to the final decision to suspend the F4 before an F5 was ready.

(In case you're wondering, the windshield on the initial F4 was similar to the F3)

J Mays strikes me as a very pretentious man who is having to constantly blow smoke up Ford's posterior in order to keep his job. Aside from the 021C, what car has he actually designed? (The 2002 1955 Thunderbird and 2004.5 1964.5 Mustang do not count as being designed by him).

Originally posted by cmc
J Mays strikes me as a very pretentious man who is having to constantly blow smoke up Ford's posterior in order to keep his job. Aside from the 021C, what car has he actually designed? (The 2002 1955 Thunderbird and 2004.5 1964.5 Mustang do not count as being designed by him).

Judging by the reaction of not just Mustang fans, the press (including the non automotive guys) & the designer community, but also the seemingly unnaimous decision of Camaro fans and members here who have seen the car, he seems to have made the Mustang design a showstopper, that has alot of people considering jumping ship.

I'd say he designed the Mustang very well.

Seems by all who've seen it, he also designed the new F150s very well too. ;)