Some other interesting tidbits from "The Plan"

Other than the revelations about Saturn and Pontiac mentioned in GM's plan, I found these things interesting:

One year ago, GMAC was able to provide either installment or lease financing for nearly half of GM retail sales. That number has fallen to 6% today.

The Plan includes introducing this market’s smallest 4-passenger vehicle, achieving higher fuel economy than the 2-passenger Smart Fortwo, the most fuel-efficient non-hybrid vehicle in the U.S. market today.

In the Plan, further shifts to smaller displacement gas engines will occur—8-cylinder engines are replaced by 6-cylinder engines, 6-cylinder engines are replaced by 4-cylinder engines. More extensive use of turbo-charging is enabling the shift to smaller displacement engines, providing better fuel economy with normal operations but offering power in reserve for emergency situations. 4-cylinder engine usage, for example, will increase by 42% by 2012, and fuel-saving 6-speed automatic transmission volume will increase by 400%, to over 90% of GM’s U.S. automatic transmission sales volume.

The company’s product plan includes additional vehicles utilizing Volt’s extended-range electric vehicle system

I don't like this part of the plan, since this type of legislation leads to classic cars getting scrapped:

In addition, policies or incentives would be particularly helpful that promote ... tax credits for scrapping older, higher carbon-emitting vehicles.

I'm suprised at this list, a lot of these were sold off YEARS ago:

• Implementing “self-help” actions to improve liquidity by $20B before the end of 2009
o Significant asset sales completed or underway
- GMAC (51%)
- Allison Transmission
- Suzuki
- Isuzu
- Fuji Heavy Industries
- Electromotive Division
- AC Delco (in process)
- HUMMER (in process)
- Strasbourg Powertrain Facility (in process)

In the Plan, further shifts to smaller displacement gas engines will occur—8-cylinder engines are replaced by 6-cylinder engines, 6-cylinder engines are replaced by 4-cylinder engines. More extensive use of turbo-charging is enabling the shift to smaller displacement engines, providing better fuel economy with normal operations but offering power in reserve for emergency situations. 4-cylinder engine usage, for example, will increase by 42% by 2012, and fuel-saving 6-speed automatic transmission volume will increase by 400%, to over 90% of GM’s U.S. automatic transmission sales volume.


Does this include all V8s? I do like the mention of more extensive use of turbo-charging though, and the 400% increase of 6-spd autos

Does this include all V8s? I do like the mention of more extensive use of turbo-charging though, and the 400% increase of 6-spd autos

GM are probably behind Ford on this front.

Does this include all V8s? I do like the mention of more extensive use of turbo-charging though, and the 400% increase of 6-spd autos

Trucks have to have V8's. Caddy's have to have V8's. Corvettes have to have V8's. Camaro's are not going anywhere anytime soon.

You will have your V8.

Trucks have to have V8's. Caddy's have to have V8's. Corvettes have to have V8's. Camaro's are not going anywhere anytime soon.

You will have your V8.

That's what I would like to think, but trucks can have diesels, Corvettes *could* have turbo V6s :sad:, same with Camaros and Caddy's.

I'd like to think that's not the case, but it could be possible.

The LS engines will be around for a long time, but it's obviously not "the future".

If I were to speculate, GM will scale back on V8 development in favor of worldwide engines. Maybe when they get back into the black they develop a OHC V8 for luxury/performance applications.

I really don't think the government should have it's hands in GM's product plans. It is just gonna make the domestic automakers competitive disadvantage even worse because now they will have to stick to this plan where Toyota or whoever can build what the market demands when they want to. Larger vehicles, more powerful, premium vehicles are more profitable, and someone will build them as long as there is a market for them.

What's sad is this whole mess we are in was not even created by an oil shortage...but by investors playing the oil markets with borrowed money. Funny how the price of oil tanked as soon as the credit market froze and no one could borrow money to invest wildly.

This ****in' BS again. Didn't the "Crusher Camaro" prove this to be crap. WTF? "In addition, policies or incentives would be particularly helpful that promote ... tax credits for scrapping older, higher carbon-emitting vehicles."

I really don't think the government should have it's hands in GM's product plans. It is just gonna make the domestic automakers competitive disadvantage even worse because now they will have to stick to this plan where Toyota or whoever can build what the market demands when they want to. Larger vehicles, more powerful, premium vehicles are more profitable, and someone will build them as long as there is a market for them.

What's sad is this whole mess we are in was not even created by an oil shortage...but by investors playing the oil markets with borrowed money. Funny how the price of oil tanked as soon as the credit market froze and no one could borrow money to invest wildly.

This is what they want...to put the big 3 out of business...But what do I know, I've only been sayin' this forever! They want to literally cripple the American icons..."In the Plan, further shifts to smaller displacement gas engines will occur—8-cylinder engines are replaced by 6-cylinder engines"....We are ***ed folks...****ed!!! This is utter and comlete BS on a ****ing shingle with a side of creamed **** casserole....enjoy!! Might as well have a nice hot cup of urine to wash it down? Sorry the urine purifier is broke at this time....

I really don't think the government should have it's hands in GM's product plans. It is just gonna make the domestic automakers competitive disadvantage even worse because now they will have to stick to this plan where Toyota or whoever can build what the market demands when they want to. Larger vehicles, more powerful, premium vehicles are more profitable, and someone will build them as long as there is a market for them.

What's sad is this whole mess we are in was not even created by an oil shortage...but by investors playing the oil markets with borrowed money. Funny how the price of oil tanked as soon as the credit market froze and no one could borrow money to invest wildly.

Just read a good article on CNN this morning. Plays into your concerns for government meddling. See here: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/02/nerad.auto/index.html

Trucks have to have V8's.

The new trucks have been shelved.

Caddy's have to have V8's.

The current plan as I know it only calls for V8s in the V-Series Caddys.

Corvettes have to have V8's.

Motor Trend has already entertained the idea of a 3.6L CORPORATE Corvette

Camaro's are not going anywhere anytime soon.

You will have your V8.

If GME gets it's way (and they are a big influence on Alpha) The F6 might not feature a V8.

I certainly hope you're right about everything you said and I'm wrong. But I'm scared nonetheless.

could someone elaborate on this part? How does it relate to classic cars like the op said?

In addition, policies or incentives would be particularly helpful that promote ... tax credits for scrapping older, higher carbon-emitting vehicles.

could someone elaborate on this part? How does it relate to classic cars like the op said?

This legislation has been done in the past. When done poorly, the cars are bought by the government for a certain amount, and then sent directly to the crusher.

This means that the little old ladies that own the 1970 Camaros and don't know what they have destroy these classics. It also means that the good parts from more modern cars get destroyed - (e.g. B body spindles and disks, LT1 engines, steering boxes, etc.). Also, parts that could be used to keep other cars running well (owned by lower income people) are destroyed.

I really don't think the government should have it's hands in GM's product plans..

But the bottom line is if you are going to someone for a bailout, they have every right to put conditions on the money they give you.

If the government (or even individuals) have to supply loans or more accurate "co-sign" for a loan, they can apply guidelines on the money or the borrower can go somewhere else.

The release said "scrapping", not crushing.
In this day & age, I cannot believe that all the environmentally conscious people would want to see all these cars go into a junk yard and sit.
"Recycling" is the new buzz word lately. I would believe that these older cars would be stripped of their useable parts and the rest would be recycled.

And I would hope that a salvage yard would have the smarts to either convince the little old lady who brings in a clean '70 Camaro for salvage to either sell it herself or sell it to him so that it could be saved.

Yeah...but placing restaints on the company you are bailing out that make it not competitive is shooting yourself in the foot if you expect the loan to be repaid. People will buy what they want...the question is..will GM be allowed to make what they want. I mean...how many people go in Chevy dealerships and say..."Man, there is just not enough really small 40mpg cars here":(

But the bottom line is if you are going to someone for a bailout, they have every right to put conditions on the money they give you.

If the government (or even individuals) have to supply loans or more accurate "co-sign" for a loan, they can apply guidelines on the money or the borrower can go somewhere else.

The release said "scrapping", not crushing.
In this day & age, I cannot believe that all the environmentally conscious people would want to see all these cars go into a junk yard and sit.
"Recycling" is the new buzz word lately. I would believe that these older cars would be stripped of their useable parts and the rest would be recycled.

And I would hope that a salvage yard would have the smarts to either convince the little old lady who brings in a clean '70 Camaro for salvage to either sell it herself or sell it to him so that it could be saved.

To some scrapping = crushing. The "environmentalists" want to prevent these cars from EVER getting back on the road, so they insist that the cars be crushed and melted down. They don't realize that this is an inefficient use of the materials since it takes energy to crush and melt the cars down. In the long run, it is more environmentally efficient to reuse as many parts as possible as many times as possible to get the most life out of it before it has to be melted down.

I really don't think the government should have it's hands in GM's product plans.

If they weren't getting a loan from the government I would agree. But just like a small business applying for a loan they need a business plan. In this case, since the funds are public...it is the government's duty to enforce the business plan to help ensure the public's funds aren't wasted.

This is what they want...to put the big 3 out of business...But what do I know, I've only been sayin' this forever! They want to literally cripple the American icons..."In the Plan, further shifts to smaller displacement gas engines will occur—8-cylinder engines are replaced by 6-cylinder engines"....We are ***ed folks...****ed!!! This is utter and comlete BS on a ****ing shingle with a side of creamed **** casserole....enjoy!! Might as well have a nice hot cup of urine to wash it down? Sorry the urine purifier is broke at this time....

Look at the power these smaller engines are putting out today!! 300HP from a 3.6L Camaro, that is more than any V8 Camaro from the mid 70's though mid 90's.

260HP from the 2.0L LNF, that is as much or more than Fords 2v 4.6L. V8's just aren't needed anymore to make 250-300HP

Yeah...but placing restaints on the company you are bailing out that make it not competitive is shooting yourself in the foot if you expect the loan to be repaid. People will buy what they want...the question is..will GM be allowed to make what they want. I mean...how many people go in Chevy dealerships and say..."Man, there is just not enough really small 40mpg cars here":(

Mini is the only automaker whos sale were up in November. Whats going to happen when gas goes back up over $4 sometime in 2009 and again it is only foreign automaker that offer 40mpg cars. That will be the final nail in the coffin for the big 3. This price dip to $1.99 is a blessing for Detroit, it will buy them at least another year to unload sub 30mpg cars.

Look at the power these smaller engines are putting out today!! 300HP from a 3.6L Camaro, that is more than any V8 Camaro from the mid 70's though mid 90's.

260HP from the 2.0L LNF, that is as much or more than Fords 2v 4.6L. V8's just aren't needed anymore to make 250-300HP


Mini is the only automaker whos sale were up in November. Whats going to happen when gas goes back up over $4 sometime in 2009 and again it is only foreign automaker that offer 40mpg cars. That will be the final nail in the coffin for the big 3. This price dip to $1.99 is a blessing for Detroit, it will buy them at least another year to unload sub 30mpg cars.
I don't care IF they made a 1000 hp. I have zero interest in ANY car without a V8. Nor do I have ANY interest, in anything foreign....This is all about putting the big 3 out of business.This is complete BS! I would never buy a ****ing POS mini!

I absolutely agree that GM should have to present a workable business plan, and the loan should be contingent on GM sticking to that plan for some preset number of years. If GM diverts from the plan, then the balance of the loan should be due immediately. And if things turn around within the outlines of the plan before the preset number of years are up, they should have no problem repaying it. :)

Mini is the only automaker whos sale were up in November. Whats going to happen when gas goes back up over $4 sometime in 2009 and again it is only foreign automaker that offer 40mpg cars. That will be the final nail in the coffin for the big 3. This price dip to $1.99 is a blessing for Detroit, it will buy them at least another year to unload sub 30mpg cars.

Mini is a niche brand..and fuel economy is not it's main selling point. While people do want fuel economy...most people who can afford what a new car runs today also are not going to compromise the size and features they expect for an extra 5-6 mpg. The ones who do care about fuel economy already have purchases geared towards that.

I also think we will not see another gas price spike for a while. You have to keep in mind, the last price spike was not caused by a shortage (no one was waiting for oil anywhere)...it was caused by influx of investors into oil markets investing with borrow money in commodities. Since the supply of oil is fairly static, when you have 10x the investors trying to buy oil futures, the price can go now where but up. Now that the credit markets have frozen and adjusted, there will be less investment money in these markets for the forseeable future. This is why OPEC cutting oil production does not matter.

I don't care IF they made a 1000 hp. I have zero interest in ANY car without a V8. Nor do I have ANY interest, in anything foreign....This is all about putting the big 3 out of business.This is complete BS! I would never buy a ****ing POS mini!
Consider this... I hope to God within my lifetime that hydrogen/electric cars will replace the antiquated ICE. As long as it performs like a musclecar should, does it really matters how it is propelled down the road?

Consider this... I hope to God within my lifetime that hydrogen/electric cars will replace the antiquated ICE. As long as it performs like a musclecar should, does it really matters how it is propelled down the road?

Well, ideally, I'd like it to sound good too.

:shrug:

Consider this... I hope to God within my lifetime that hydrogen/electric cars will replace the antiquated ICE. As long as it performs like a musclecar should, does it really matters how it is propelled down the road?

To ME it matters, and I don't think the ICE is antequated. GM pioneered and perfected the V8 engine, everyone copies it. And yet they'll be strangled, while the other bastards will be able to produce whatever they want! It's BS! I hope to God that NEVER happens. IF it does......well I'll just keep it to myself! There is a reason why gas powered nitros are better too. The electric ones suck ASS!! Whoever it was that came up with this "plan", to phase out V8's, should be thrown out on their ass (shot was a bit harsh)!! They should resign from GM immediately....and move to france with johnny deep!!

Well, ideally, I'd like it to sound good too.

:shrug:Agreed. Ironically artificial engine sound may be required to be standard on all electric vehicles some day. The blind community is already complaining that hybrids are too quiet in electric mode and are dangerous on city streets. Watch for legislation to follow once EVs become more common.

Can you imagine being able to dial in your engine sound and have your car sound like an Formula 1 racer one minute and a burbling big block hemi the next? Sound crazy? I recall at least one electric car manufacturer is already planning for this. (Can't remember exactly which one off the top of my head.) Don't worry, its electronically tied to the throttle so it "revs-up" at the appropriate times. ;)

Agreed. Ironically artificial engine sound may be required to be standard on all electric vehicles some day. The blind community is already complaining that hybrids are too quiet in electric mode and are dangerous on city streets. Watch for legislation to follow once EVs become more common.

Can you imagine being able to dial in your engine sound and have your car sound like an Formula 1 racer one minute and a burbling big block hemi the next? Sound crazy? I recall at least one electric car manufacturer is already planning for this. (Can't remember exactly which one off the top of my head.) Don't worry, its electronically tied to the throttle so it "revs-up" at the appropriate times. ;)

Don't be so sure. Next step will be, the sound of your phony engine will be a noise violation! Anyway why would you want to hear the phony sounds of something that to you is antiquated? What for? Me, I'd rather just have the real thing!! I never thaught it would happen, but this country WILL fall....Just a matter of time now!! I predict my interest in cars will have to take a back seat, to my interest in weaponry!!

Don't be so sure. Next step will be, the sound of your phony engine will be a noise violation! Anyway why would you want to hear the phony sounds of something that to you is antiquated? What for? Me, I'd rather just have the real thing!! I never thaught it would happen, but this country WILL fall....Just a matter of time now!! I predict my interest in cars will have to take a back seat, to my interest in weaponry!!You're missing the point. :rolleyes:

Tell me, do you get as upset when you see a GEICO commerical? ;)

I don't care IF they made a 1000 hp. I have zero interest in ANY car without a V8. Nor do I have ANY interest, in anything foreign....This is all about putting the big 3 out of business.This is complete BS! I would never buy a ****ing POS mini!

Well then I guess they better start working on smaller V8's. You are used to a world where if you wanted 250-350HP it had to come from a V8. Today V8's are for the 350HP+ market and that market is much smaller than the 250HP-350HP market which can be filled by smaller more fuel efficient Turbo I4's and V6's. Once all vehicle engines have Direct injection and HCCI, V8s will only be for the 400HP+ crowd.


I also think we will not see another gas price spike for a while. You have to keep in mind, the last price spike was not caused by a shortage (no one was waiting for oil anywhere)...it was caused by influx of investors into oil markets investing with borrow money in commodities. Since the supply of oil is fairly static, when you have 10x the investors trying to buy oil futures, the price can go now where but up. Now that the credit markets have frozen and adjusted, there will be less investment money in these markets for the forseeable future. This is why OPEC cutting oil production does not matter.

Just wait until that credit market opens back up again. Weakening dollar and a production drop predicted for later in 2009 will send prices back to the moon.

To ME it matters, and I don't think the ICE is antequated. GM pioneered and perfected the V8 engine, everyone copies it. And yet they'll be strangled, while the other bastards will be able to produce whatever they want! It's BS! I hope to God that NEVER happens. IF it does......well I'll just keep it to myself! There is a reason why gas powered nitros are better too. The electric ones suck ASS!! Whoever it was that came up with this "plan", to phase out V8's, should be shot!! They should resign from GM immediately....and move to france with johnny deep!!

The only thing keeping ICE alive is the lack of good batteries.

Just wait until that credit market opens back up again. Weakening dollar and a production drop predicted for later in 2009 will send prices back to the moon.


Would not bet on it..with the non oil friendly incoming administration.

The environmentalists have G.M. over a barrel and they know it. It has been talked about for months that a possible rescue plan would mandate a reduction in V8 availability for the big 3. I just hope this is not 1970 all over again.

Can you imagine being able to dial in your engine sound and have your car sound like an Formula 1 racer one minute and a burbling big block hemi the next? Sound crazy? I recall at least one electric car manufacturer is already planning for this. (Can't remember exactly which one off the top of my head.) Don't worry, its electronically tied to the throttle so it "revs-up" at the appropriate times. ;)

I can see the ricer's doing that now if they could...dude is that your civic?...It sounds like it's got a Supra motor?!...Yeah I just got it from iTunes...sweet brah.

You're missing the point. :rolleyes:

Tell me, do you get as upset when you see a GEICO commerical? ;)

I really don't watch much TV, anymore! However I do get this pissed, when I see ads for certain products/companies. Why did they get a huge bailout too? If so then I will now!

The environmentalists have G.M. over a barrel and they know it. It has been talked about for months that a possible rescue plan would mandate a reduction in V8 availability for the big 3. I just hope this is not 1970 all over again.

Months....? That's what this whole friggin' thing was all about! Why in hell do you think I've been trashing the BIAS media for so long. I saw this coming a mile away, it was all about crippling the big 3 in this very way, and putting them out of business....How yall can't see this, is beyond me..They blame America for everything, what better way to stick it to US, than to mandate away the very vehicles we cherish in this country.....vehicles that represent freedom to so many of US here in America!!! So you see, I really could care less about what foreign brands are doing. My hate for them, grew directly from the hate coming from their friends in the media towards GM!!

Well, ideally, I'd like it to sound good too.

:shrug:

The Grand National sounds pretty awesome. The Torana was set for 375hp and I bet they could get easily 425hp from it. Isnt Ford looking to do a 450hp TT V6 engine?

Not to mention GM has yet to release (to the public's eye ;)) the DI LSx engine. Or the 3V/cyl LSx. Or the twin cam in block LSx. Or the Variable Cam LSx.

GM powertrain has stuff up their sleeve to improve V8 fuel economy enough to buy them plenty more time. V8's will continue to get more rare, but they will still exist.

Not to mention Europe still has plenty of V8s, V10s and V12s despite higher fuel costs and regulations. They are just more expensive over there. We WILL STILL HAVE V8s.

GM pioneered and perfected the V8 engine
Pioneered?
Perfected?

Dude, relax a bit. The ICE of today is nowhere near perfect. Not to mention GMs v8's are very different than other manufacturers in terms of design and functionality. "Perfection" is all in the beholder. GMs engines rock - but I would hardly call them the perfect ICE.

Months....? That's what this whole friggin' thing was all about!

No. That is not what this whole thing is about. This is about the fact that GM, Ford, and Chrylser ran themselves into the ground and now they are begging for handouts. Yes the govt is biased. Yes the media is biased. I agree with you 100%. But GM messed up. We now get to pay the bills to fix them. And because the government is a group of people we as citizens elected to control our money - they get to put clauses onto our money as to what it is used for.

This conveniently includes more fuel efficient cars.

The only thing keeping ICE alive is the lack of good batteries.

And a cheap and abundant supply of Cobalt, Manganese, and Lithium in the Earth's crust to make those batteries cheaply. ;) :p

could someone elaborate on this part? How does it relate to classic cars like the op said?

If they can put an end to GM's further developement of the V8 ICE, because that's what europe thinks we should do! They can dam sure come to your home and collect that "gross polluter" you've been working on just for fun! Maybe you want to pass it on to your kids! Tough **** your ****ing beat...And while they're there, they might also decide you don't need to have all that firepower you have. This **** doesn't happen over night folks, it takes baby steps, but one at a time, they WILL persist until all of the evil (insert your favorite rides/guns/cheeseburgers) are eliminated. Do some searching for Hot Rod magazine's many articles on the Project "Crusher Camaro". IIRC it was chevron & politicians involved in the raping of the classic car hobby! They want to go after Hot Rodders, the 1st real recyclers. Imagine that, the people who care about the environment! Never mind the energy it takes to eliminate all these cars. A bunch of hypocrite bums they are.

Let them go bankrupt and rearrange. Then take the environmentalists and CAFE out of power. That's the only way the industry will rebound anytime soon. They need the handcuffs taken off by the idiots that believe in cars destroying the atmosphere and the global warming farse.

The Grand National sounds pretty awesome. The Torana was set for 375hp and I bet they could get easily 425hp from it. Isnt Ford looking to do a 450hp TT V6 engine?

Not to mention GM has yet to release (to the public's eye ;)) the DI LSx engine. Or the 3V/cyl LSx. Or the twin cam in block LSx. Or the Variable Cam LSx.

GM powertrain has stuff up their sleeve to improve V8 fuel economy enough to buy them plenty more time. V8's will continue to get more rare, but they will still exist.

Not to mention Europe still has plenty of V8s, V10s and V12s despite higher fuel costs and regulations. They are just more expensive over there. We WILL STILL HAVE V8s.


Pioneered?
Perfected?

Dude, relax a bit. The ICE of today is nowhere near perfect. Not to mention GMs v8's are very different than other manufacturers in terms of design and functionality. "Perfection" is all in the beholder. GMs engines rock - but I would hardly call them the perfect ICE.



No. That is not what this whole thing is about. This is about the fact that GM, Ford, and Chrylser ran themselves into the ground and now they are begging for handouts. Yes the govt is biased. Yes the media is biased. I agree with you 100%. But GM messed up. We now get to pay the bills to fix them. And because the government is a group of people we as citizens elected to control our money - they get to put clauses onto our money as to what it is used for.

This conveniently includes more fuel efficient cars.



And a cheap and abundant supply of Cobalt, Manganese, and Lithium in the Earth's crust to make those batteries cheaply. ;) :p
Sure even going back to the GNX's. They earned my respect, no doubt. I'm all for them using more FI, DI, VVT ICE's in the future. I don't even care about the electric stuff. Great, I love it, I want to see more of all that, so that people have more choices. I know about the twin cam & 3v LSx's. I think GM has the ability to produce the best stuff in the world, and their V8's is what ALOT of people really love and want. I hear the V8 is done and I'm livid, cuz it ain't done! IMHO it can get way more refinedwhich means more power, mpg, reliability. OK so GM screwed up, but IMO not with the products. It's with the people running the show, so get rid of them. Hell I could probably do a better job. I might as well say it, everyone under the dam sun thinks they know, yet I rarely IF ever hear anyone who cares as much about the companies future as me. Do the businessmen in charge? I'm not so sure some of them do. And as for the DC crooks....IF they want to push this electric car **** down our throats, they want to stimulate the economy all this BS. Energy independenc they say....Do something real, cut US all a check for say $30K (or whatever it costs) for each one of my homes, with the only stipulation being that I have to use it to install a solar system in my homes. Now an electric car might pique MY interest, without something like that, I have none!! Because now instead of paying for gas, my power bill will be friggin' skyhigh. This would help the middle class bigtime, by taking away one major bill everyone has to pay, and instead they'd be getting paid for all the power they get to sell! This would also stimulate the economy, because companies would have so much work installing these in homes across the country. So now suppose I decide I'd like to take a trip up to Jersey to see the snow? Now what I gotta plug in my car 20x before I get there? Doesn't sound like a fun trip to me. I'd rather drive than fly anywhere in this country. More fuel efficient cars...great, let's have em'. But don't give US gearheads the big FU!! You say that's NOT what it's all about, but I still disagree IMO that's exactly what all the legislation against the auto industry has always been about...I guess we'll all have to wait and see what is to become of our freedoms!

Let them go bankrupt and rearrange. Then take the environmentalists and CAFE out of power. That's the only way the industry will rebound anytime soon. They need the handcuffs taken off by the idiots that believe in cars destroying the atmosphere and the global warming farse.

They obviously need some rearanging, when they talk this blasphemy of eliminating V8's. I hate to break this to ya man, but the environmentalists have just been given full power, by a clueless voting public! Don't look now but the idiots are in charge.

I'm in complete agreement. Unfortunately most of that 52% of the voting public have no idea what they voted for, as these luntatics are going to be given even more power, a bailout will just prolong the obvious.

Months....? That's what this whole friggin' thing was all about! Why in hell do you think I've been trashing the BIAS media for so long. I saw this coming a mile away, it was all about crippling the big 3 in this very way, and putting them out of business....How yall can't see this, is beyond me..They blame America for everything, what better way to stick it to US, than to mandate away the very vehicles we cherish in this country.....vehicles that represent freedom to so many of US here in America!!! So you see, I really could care less about what foreign brands are doing. My hate for them, grew directly from the hate coming from their friends in the media towards GM!!

When talking about a bailout in terms on limits of V8's, months. Everyone knows that the bias against big SUV's has been going on for years, but there were no bailout plans years ago. Politicians see no need for large V8's in regular passenger cars, and who can blame them when they see high performance V6's doing the same job with better gas mileage. The new F150 from what I read does not even come available with a V6. Unfortunately they control the purse strings and have the right to call the shots when it is the taxpayers money involved.

And I see no need for a ton of stuff they spend my tax $$$ on!! Maybe it's time to let go of the big income tax checks at the end of the year, and start working under the table?