R.i.p. Z/28

At the risk of fear mongering, there's an interview with Bob Lutz where he directly addresses a higher performance Camaro. There's another thread discussing it, but I figured I'd post it here since it directly mentions what we all assumed was the Z/28.

Key Quote:
“I get letters from people saying they heard we were going to add a supercharged 600-hp V-8 to the Camaro lineup, and I write back saying ‘Sorry, with new (corporate average fuel economy) standards (for 2020), we aren’t going to do it.”
The new minimum CAFE standard of 35 mpg (6.7 L/100 km) in 2020 and additional pressure from California and 15 other states to limit carbon dioxide is part of what may force Chrysler LLC to jettison its Viper high-performance model. Chrysler said this week it was examining options for its Viper business, including a sale.

“Setting lower CO2 limits would equal setting CAFE at 43 mpg (5.5 L/100 km),” Lutz says. “This is why the sale of the Dodge Viper by Chrysler makes sense, because anyone selling fewer than 50,000 vehicles annually would be exempt (from fuel-economy requirements).

“So if someone else bought Viper, they could sell to capacity, but Chrysler couldn’t. This is why we are concerned about Corvette.

“The reason California set the exemption for less than 50,000 units is that it would mean the Hollywood folks could keep driving their Lamborghinis and Ferraris.”

Based on the 50,000-unit exemption “Porsche could sell 11-mpg (21.4 L/100 km) Cayennes, but we couldn’t sell 20-mpg (11.8 L/100 km) Chevy Tahoes,” Lutz adds.


I hope this makes everyone as mad as it does me - and not at GM, but at the people and their representatives who agree to these stupid regulations. They will kill the automotive industry if given the chance, and destroy manufacturing in this country in the process all because of a knee-jerk solution to an questionable problem.

Thread:
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632428

Original Article:
http://wardsauto.com/ar/lutz_break_testing_080829/

This doesn't necessarily mean that a Z/28 type model is dead, just that it definitely won't take the supercharger with ridiculous horsepower route. It could still go on a diet with a suspension upgrade and possibly a mild bump in power, like 20 or so. I will keep faith for a while longer yet.

Lutz also said the Zeta platform was dead a couple years ago. CAFE standards could still change if we get some decent representatives.

The amount of whining on this forum complaining about a supercharged 550+hp Z28 probably didn't help either. Thanks ****ers! Instead of getting something special and godly powerful we get one choice, Vanilla. Definitely picking up a Vette now if this is true. At least I won't have to wait 3-4 years for it now.

The Z28 name was gone before.

It came back. And it will again. :cool:

It only means it won't get the 600+hp LS9 reserved for the ZR1. :rolleyes:

I'd rather have the Z28 be a lighter version of the SS with maybe an exhaust and suspension upgrade. 440HP 6.2L at 3700lbs. > 550HP S/C 6.2L at 4100lbs.

I'd rather have the Z28 be a lighter version of the SS with maybe an exhaust and suspension upgrade. 440HP 6.2L at 3700lbs. > 550HP S/C 6.2L at 4100lbs.Yeah you couldn't do that on your own, the suspension and exhaust? The car isn't getting lighter so I wish people would quit asking for that.

Its only logical to kill the Z28 in order to save the Corvette. Take your SS Camaro to your local speed shop if you want 500+hp, because you arent getting it from GM.

It only means it won't get the 600+hp LS9 reserved for the ZR1. :rolleyes:

It never was..

so i dont exactly get these cafe ratings... its manditory that they meet them, or they have to pay a gas guzzler tax if they dont?

The amount of whining on this forum complaining about a supercharged 550+hp Z28 probably didn't help either. Thanks ****ers! Instead of getting something special and godly powerful we get one choice, Vanilla. Definitely picking up a Vette now if this is true. At least I won't have to wait 3-4 years for it now.

Yeah, I'm sure GM was watching CZ28.com and they were just waiting to punish us.

[Bob Lutz]: "I swear if I hear one more thread on CZ28 with those damn enthusiasts whining about GM making a 550 HP Z28, I'm cancelling the damn car."

Hey, it's how billion dollar businesses make their decisions. Search the internet looking for whiney enthusiasts, and if they whine too much, punish them.

:think:

...I hope this makes everyone as mad as it does me - and not at GM, but at the people and their representatives who agree to these stupid regulations. They will kill the automotive industry if given the chance, and destroy manufacturing in this country in the process all because of a knee-jerk solution to an questionable problem....


Unfortunately the only presidential candidate who understood this was Mit Romney, and the bigots kept him out. Hope for 2012 or 1016, maybe CAFE can still be amended in time.

He's just saying there isn't going to be a 600 hp supercharged V8 version of the Camaro. He cites CAFE in 2020.

He's not saying there won't be a Z28 and there is a long time between now and 2020. Because if you just take the known Camaro SS w/ LS3 at 422hp and 23 mph HWY it too would not make the CAFE rules for 2020, neither would the Z06 or ZR1. But there is a reason why the A in CAFE is for average. With an army of smaller high MPG vehicles like Volt in full production by then GM can offset the full size trucks, SUV's, Vettes and maybe a Camaro by then.

On the Z28 front there is still room for it in the Camaro linup without being force fed.

I agree with the above entry.

Plus, if GM doesn't make it the way you want it, the aftermarket should be plentiful. Trust me on this one.

Originally Posted by Fbodfather

Look -- we don't talk about future product plans --

Do you think we'd take a hallowed name such as Z28 and put it on something else???????

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT'S NOT DEAD???????????


http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5491939&postcount=98

Straight from the horses mouth. As others have said, it's not dead, just being refocused/put on hold. SilverSS makes a great point about GM bringing out smaller, fuel efficient vehicles first to offset less fuel efficient vehicle like a Z/28 that might be in the pipeline.

Yeah, I'm sure GM was watching CZ28.com and they were just waiting to punish us.

[Bob Lutz]: "I swear if I hear one more thread on CZ28 with those damn enthusiasts whining about GM making a 550 HP Z28, I'm cancelling the damn car."

Hey, it's how billion dollar businesses make their decisions. Search the internet looking for whiney enthusiasts, and if they whine too much, punish them.

:think:Yeah because we don't have a higher up in Gm that posts on here all the time, or had members of this forum go up to Detroit to give their impression and insight into what the Camaro should be and active in the process of getting this thing to market. Yeah your right they obviously don't listen to anything we say on here.:rolleyes:

Yeah because we don't have a higher up in Gm that posts on here all the time, or had members of this forum go up to Detroit to give their impression and insight into what the Camaro should be and active in the process of getting this thing to market. Yeah your right they obviously don't listen to anything we say on here.:rolleyes:I believe CIVIC was being sarcastic. :p

I'd love to see a Z28 that runs on gas/electricity.

Anything under 50% throttle is pure juice and over 50% it uses juice and gas. That would boost fuel economy...with a weight penalty. :(

I'd love to see a Z28 that runs on gas/electricity.

Anything under 50% throttle is pure juice and over 50% it uses juice and gas. That would boost fuel economy...with a weight penalty. :(

Now that would be a changeup... Z/28 known to 8 cylinder combustion monster to be tame to a gentle plug in hybrid version. Gutsy but I like it.

Yeah because we don't have a higher up in Gm that posts on here all the time, or had members of this forum go up to Detroit to give their impression and insight into what the Camaro should be and active in the process of getting this thing to market. Yeah your right they obviously don't listen to anything we say on here.:rolleyes:

Right. :rolleyes: Here's your quote smart guy:

The amount of whining on this forum complaining about a supercharged 550+hp Z28 probably didn't help either. Thanks ****ers! Instead of getting something special and godly powerful we get one choice, Vanilla. Definitely picking up a Vette now if this is true. At least I won't have to wait 3-4 years for it now.

So what you're saying that GM is watching CZ28, saw people complaining about a supercharged 550+ HP Z28, and decided NOT to make it available for sale because they didn't like the "whiners" on CZ28? Yeah that's a realistic statement. I'm so sorry if you're offended that I think your statement is far from reality and downright stupid.

"Yep - damn those whiners on CZ28! Let's give 'em one choice - VANILLA. Yeah that'll teach those bastards. Damn Camaro enthusiasts with their crazy Camaro enthusiasm...." - Bob Lutz (in his chateau while sipping fancy wine in his fancy robe, laughing in a sinister tone)

They just need to take an SS, remove a bunch of the luxury items, drop in the LS7, and call it the Z/28.

The only thing I read is that there won't be a 600 HP, supercharged Z/28.

He didn't say there wouldn't be a Z/28.

They just need to take an SS, remove a bunch of the luxury items, drop in the LS7, and call it the Z/28.

Put this guy in charge...

They just need to take an SS, remove a bunch of the luxury items, drop in the LS7, and call it the Z/28.

:metal:

That's what I've been sayin' too!

They just need to take an SS, remove a bunch of the luxury items, drop in the LS7, and call it the Z/28.

I would be ecstatic about an SS just with the LS7 in it instead of the LS3 as the Z28.

I know I going to hold out until the official, final word is given about the Z28 before I purchase any new car.

I agree with the above entry.

Plus, if GM doesn't make it the way you want it, the aftermarket should be plentiful. Trust me on this one.
It makes sense.
Why should GM put all this money into developing more power and holding a warranty to it when Roush, Saleen, etc. will do it anyways. We could all get more out of the car if GM put that money to making it lighter.

:)

Lutz also said the Zeta platform was dead a couple years ago.

Bob Lutz has never.... and I repeat....N-E-V-E-R... said the Zeta platform was dead. Wherever you got that info, you need to throw it back in the garbage pile it came from.


The amount of whining on this forum complaining about a supercharged 550+hp Z28 probably didn't help either. Thanks ****ers! Instead of getting something special and godly powerful we get one choice, Vanilla.

Calling a 420+ horsepower car "vanilla" is downright silly. I'd wager that's a bit more horsepower than anything you're driving now.

so i dont exactly get these cafe ratings... its manditory that they meet them, or they have to pay a gas guzzler tax if they dont?

It's the combined corperate average mpg of all vehicles a car company sells.

Each vehicle is tested and rated at a certain mpg rating. This number is NOT any of the numbers on your window sticker from the EPA. This is a number by a different agency that is actually on the pretty high side as far as fuel economy ratings go.

The other side of the equasion is how many vehicles are sold. In a company that sells, say, a million vehicles per year, a car that sells at a rate of 200,000 per year is going to have 10 times the impact on the company's CAFE rating than a vehicle in the same company that sells 20,000.

In a company like General Motors that sold 3.87 million vehicles last year, the 8,700 Corvette Z06s sold had pretty much no impact on GM's CAFE numbers, while the Impala that sold at least 250,000 models last year is going to impact GM's CAFE like a SOB.

The "Gas Guzzler Tax" is a totally different animal with nothing to do with CAFE. The "Guzzler Tax" is a tax applied to any car (trucks are exempt) that gets a combined EPA fuel economy below 22.5 mpg combined. American made cars that fall into that void are cars like SRT8-anything from Chrysler, Vipers, the now defunct Ford GT, the Shelby GT 500 and it's mega-powered spinoffs. These vehicles get hit with the tax, yet, these vehicles also sell in such miniscule numbers that they have virturally zero impact on CAFE standards.

Light trucks and SUVs don't pay a Gas Guzzler's tax, but their fuel economy (or lack thereof) will have a humongous impact on fuel economy since that is well more than half of what US automakers sell domestically.... and hence, the panic. Trucks had their own CAFE numbers to meet, but the new regs combine both cars and trucks together when figuring out future CAFE regs.

In 2007, all vehicles sold in the US averaged just under 21 mpg (cars alone were nearly 30!). If the issue was moving only cars to 40 mpg in 12 years, that would be no problem (despite how much resistance you see). But throw trucks in the mix, and it becomes a major problem.

It's easy to blame legislators because they are a collective, faceless organization. But the real problem is that 99.9% of the public don't understand anything about automobiles more than getting in and driving... and that goes for the officials we vote for as well. This goes for BOTH political parties and BOTH ends of the political spectrum (only a moron would overlook that).

But the fact is that we do have an oil addiction that essentially makes us borrow money from China to pay for oil we get from places that either don't like us or are unstable and are 1 coup away from turning against us. The obvious way around CAFE that would take the pressure off of car manufacturers is a gas tax that keeps gasoline at $4 or even $5 per gallon (perhaps using the money to pay off our catostrophic debt to China and other countries that's funding us). But that idea is essentially political suicide. The only other way is through CAFE, and IMO, it's the worst choice of the necessary evils.

The hawks are for it because less imported oil increases our security (as long as oil companies get more money to make up the loss via higher prices). Treehuggers love it because they think it means less pollution. Legislatures and Congress love it because it's an easy way to appeal to their own constituents on both sides.

This was probably a $50 answer to a $1 question, so, sorry if I went on a rampage. :)

This was probably a $50 answer to a $1 question, so, sorry if I went on a rampage. :)

that was an awesome answer to something i had never understood. That explains everything, thanks a ton. :yes:

Its only logical to kill the Z28 in order to save the Corvette. Take your SS Camaro to your local speed shop if you want 500+hp, because you arent getting it from GM.







mmmmmmmmmmm............no. Kill a Z28 to save a Corvette?


again I state: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........no

Put this guy in charge...


well -- we love HuJass-- but trust me - putting an LS7 in a Camaro would price it out of site...............there are other ways to do a Z28.....


All: it ain't dead! It's on hold. We must rethink EVERY entry -- car/truck/crossover -- simply go look at the sales figures for July and August - if that isn't a 'reality slap in the face' -- nothing is!

At the risk of fear mongering, there's an interview with Bob Lutz where he directly addresses a higher performance Camaro. There's another thread discussing it, but I figured I'd post it here since it directly mentions what we all assumed was the Z/28.

Key Quote:
“I get letters from people saying they heard we were going to add a supercharged 600-hp V-8 to the Camaro lineup, and I write back saying ‘Sorry, with new (corporate average fuel economy) standards (for 2020), we aren’t going to do it.”
The new minimum CAFE standard of 35 mpg (6.7 L/100 km) in 2020 and additional pressure from California and 15 other states to limit carbon dioxide is part of what may force Chrysler LLC to jettison its Viper high-performance model. Chrysler said this week it was examining options for its Viper business, including a sale.

“Setting lower CO2 limits would equal setting CAFE at 43 mpg (5.5 L/100 km),” Lutz says. “This is why the sale of the Dodge Viper by Chrysler makes sense, because anyone selling fewer than 50,000 vehicles annually would be exempt (from fuel-economy requirements).

“So if someone else bought Viper, they could sell to capacity, but Chrysler couldn’t. This is why we are concerned about Corvette.

“The reason California set the exemption for less than 50,000 units is that it would mean the Hollywood folks could keep driving their Lamborghinis and Ferraris.”

Based on the 50,000-unit exemption “Porsche could sell 11-mpg (21.4 L/100 km) Cayennes, but we couldn’t sell 20-mpg (11.8 L/100 km) Chevy Tahoes,” Lutz adds.


I hope this makes everyone as mad as it does me - and not at GM, but at the people and their representatives who agree to these stupid regulations. They will kill the automotive industry if given the chance, and destroy manufacturing in this country in the process all because of a knee-jerk solution to an questionable problem.

Thread:
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632428

Original Article:
http://wardsauto.com/ar/lutz_break_testing_080829/

We can thank the good old democratic Congress and the wacko environmentalists for this ridiculously high CAFE standards!

well -- we love HuJass-- but trust me - putting an LS7 in a Camaro would price it out of site...............there are other ways to do a Z28.....


All: it ain't dead! It's on hold. We must rethink EVERY entry -- car/truck/crossover -- simply go look at the sales figures for July and August - if that isn't a 'reality slap in the face' -- nothing is!

well there it is... straight from the horses mouth
/thread
as a matter of fact, i believe thats sig worthy

i understand in these troubling times sir...just makes me sick those arrogant pricks who own mustangs have the advantage....

ps:in response to mr camaro above

well -- we love HuJass-- but trust me - putting an LS7 in a Camaro would price it out of site...............there are other ways to do a Z28.....

Scott,
How much more is the LS7 vs. the LS3 in terms of cost (GM's cost, not retail)?

If it is so much more, I could only surmise that the LS9 or LSA is significantly more than that, right?

So what's left as another Z/28 engine option?

Scott,
How much more is the LS7 vs. the LS3 in terms of cost (GM's cost, not retail)?

If it is so much more, I could only surmise that the LS9 or LSA is significantly more than that, right?

So what's left as another Z/28 engine option?

i think the LSA is cheaper.

i think the LSA is cheaper.

Anyone know why the LSA is less? Logically it seems like the LS7 would be less. But that's just me. I'm probably missing something or simply don't know enough about the LSA motor to understand why it's less.

Anyone know why the LSA is less? Logically it seems like the LS7 would be less. But that's just me. I'm probably missing something or simply don't know enough about the LSA motor to understand why it's less.LS7 is hand built, LSA's aren't. More expensive parts used for LS7.

So after the recession and when sales improve enough that GM would consider a monster motor Camaro, maybe the Z28 will come off hold, unless GM is in negotiations with the Federal Government for a chunk of that $50 billion loan.

i dont know if the LSA is done this way, but i konw that the LS7 is built by hand, thus increasing the motors price considerably. Not to mention, again im not sure the LSA has this or not, but the LS7 has Titanium all through that thing, rods, etc.. so cost of materials are also higher. or that would be my 2 guesses off the top of my head.


I know the Z/28 is not dead... I know its on hold... and for now thats fine by me, as im not yet ready to buy (promised the next car is the wife's to choose, and she's going for a G8 I think) and when I am ready, I'm hoping to find my beloved Z/28 on lots agian.

well -- we love HuJass-- but trust me - putting an LS7 in a Camaro would price it out of site...............there are other ways to do a Z28.....


All: it ain't dead! It's on hold. We must rethink EVERY entry -- car/truck/crossover -- simply go look at the sales figures for July and August - if that isn't a 'reality slap in the face' -- nothing is!

Thanks for chiming in, Scott!! I was hoping the Z/28 wasn't dead, although CAFE has been burning me up for quite sometime and I've therefore had some doubts. Your post also makes me think GM has something special in mind for the car when they decide to green light it and that's also encouraging. Thanks!

More expensive parts used for LS7.

I think this is probably the biggest factor. The LS7 has a lot of more exotic stuff like titanium rods, titanium pushrods and valve springs, titanium intake valves, sodium filled exhaust valves, etc.

well couldn't they make a "working man's" version of the LS7? Call it the WM7.

well couldn't they make a "working man's" version of the LS7? Call it the WM7.What's wrong with an LSA supercharged motor? It makes more Hp and more Tq across the board, pulley change and your approaching 600+hp.

What's wrong with an LSA supercharged motor? It makes more Hp and more Tq across the board, pulley change and your approaching 600+hp.

FYI: Unless it gets titanium rods and forged pistons, a pulley change will equal cracked pistons and bent rods.

The LSA is pretty well maxed out from the factory. The LSA is not the LS9.

well couldn't they make a "working man's" version of the LS7? Call it the WM7.

I'm right with you on this. I think the LS7 is amazing, but if I couldn't get it in a Camaro from the factory, it would still be cool to have some kind of 7.0 liter engine in the car.

Just having a modern, ls-based 427 cu. in. motor in the Camaro from the factory would freaking rock.

Its still months before the SS becomes available, maybe we'll have a hint on the Z by then.

well couldn't they make a "working man's" version of the LS7? Call it the WM7.

I think that is called the LS3 and it sounds like we are lucky to have it.

FWIW, The current Hot Rod has a GM crate engine thrash in a 69 Chevelle. They priced the LS3 crate motor at $6200, whereas the LS7 was about $13k.

GM Performance Parts does offer an upgraded hot cam version of the LS3 with 480hp. Perhaps if they can get it to pass 50-state emissions that version could be used in a Z/28 Camaro. However personally I rather see the LSA. :D

The Sky is falling, he Sky is falling!!!

Good Lord folks, read what is being said not what you think is being said. So, Mr. Lutz pooh-poohed the Supercharged vesion of the car. He didn't say there won't be a Z28.

And Scott is right on target. This is a tough time for the auto industry. Everything is up for review. It still doesn't mean the possibility of a Z28 is dead. There is still hope here.

I would also encourage everyone to get a bit more realistic in what you expect for a Vehicle sold to the General Public. With all of the pressure on to make safer and more environmentally friendly vehicles, quite literally we will all have to rethink our perceived needs.

To be competitive, GM won't be putting out the types of vehicles we saw in the late '70s and early '80s. It would be suicide.

However, we also won't see Lambroghini's for $40,000 either. It ain't gonna happen.

I agree with one of the posters I read today, what would be so terrible if you had a high performance vehicle with hybrid technologies or other emerging technologies which was capable of 30+ mpg?????

That, to me at least, would be the equivalent of the Manhattan Project (if you don't know what that was - I suggest you GOOGLE it).

Just think 0-60 in 5.0 seconds and a sub 13 sec quarter mile and 32 mpg. Sounds darn good to me.

FYI: Unless it gets titanium rods and forged pistons, a pulley change will equal cracked pistons and bent rods.

The LSA is pretty well maxed out from the factory. The LSA is not the LS9.
It wasn't maxed out during testing where they supposedly changed the pulley out on the Z28 and were pumping over 600hp thru it.

FYI: Unless it gets titanium rods and forged pistons, a pulley change will equal cracked pistons and bent rods.

The LSA is pretty well maxed out from the factory. The LSA is not the LS9.

i don't think titanium rods would be NECESSARY, some regular forged H beam or I beam rods would be fine, but i agree, those hyper pistons and powdered metal rods are a weak link for sure. i don't know why anyone would want an LSA in a Z28, i think they are already pushing the components as it is in the LSA in standard form.

I think that is called the LS3 and it sounds like we are lucky to have it.

Not really. Yes we are VERY lucky to have the LS3. (that's the motor that I personally was hoping for) But it is not the same as a 427 CID lump. I think that if they used less expensive parts in the "Working Man's LS7" they could easily produce a reliable 450hp 7 liter engine that they could use in the Camaro (and even in the G8 GXP and various Caddys)

It wasn't maxed out during testing where they supposedly changed the pulley out on the Z28 and were pumping over 600hp thru it.

with hyper pistons and powdered metal rods, that is just playing with fire. i still can't fathom how gm would cut corners like that and not offer a real bottom end on a boosted car. and a caddi at that!!

I'd rather they spend the $$ on lightening and suspension/brake upgrades......I'll make it go fast.....

That, to me at least, would be the equivalent of the Manhattan Project (if you don't know what that was - I suggest you GOOGLE it).

Just think 0-60 in 5.0 seconds and a sub 13 sec quarter mile and 32 mpg. Sounds darn good to me.

your saying a sub 13 second hybrid camaro is the equivalent to secretly building and testing an Atom Bomb? are you for reals?

Not really. Yes we are VERY lucky to have the LS3. (that's the motor that I personally was hoping for) But it is not the same as a 427 CID lump. I think that if they used less expensive parts in the "Working Man's LS7" they could easily produce a reliable 450hp 7 liter engine that they could use in the Camaro (and even in the G8 GXP and various Caddys)
FWIW - The LS7 puts out 505hp. A cam swap in the LS3 and you have 480hp. We really don't need a 7 liter small block to improve upon the "base" Camaro SS.
:p

your saying a sub 13 second hybrid camaro is the equivalent to secretly building and testing an Atom Bomb? are you for reals?

of course it's the same!! how do you not see it?? :lol: :lol:

FWIW - The LS7 puts out 505hp. A cam swap in the LS3 and you have 480hp. We really don't need a 7 liter small block to improve upon the "base" Camaro SS.
:p

I know the LS7 puts out 505hp, I was saying that if they had to use cheaper parts and mass produce it instead of hand build it, then they could produce a 7 liter that puts out at LEAST 450hp reliably. THEN you can cam swap and you are right back up there with the Z06 version.;) But honestly, not too many of us are willing to swap cams in a brand new car with a powertrain warranty. I'd rather GM build the 450hp for me. (and I'm pulling 450hp out of my ass by the way, it could realisticly be more)

your saying a sub 13 second hybrid camaro is the equivalent to secretly building and testing an Atom Bomb? are you for reals?

Of course I am exaggerating a bit here. However, the need to rethink what and how we reach the perfomance levels we really want is going to take a major rethink on the part of the industry and the consumer.

To me after over 100 years of Gasoline powered autos, this is going to be a huge change for the General Public. Is it tantamount to the Manhattan Project and the rush to solve the energy Crisis? Perhaps and Perhaps not?

Where will we be in 10 years. God forbid we end up with some of the junk we had to endure in the past. 170 HP Z28's with a strangled 305, Iron Duke 4 Cylinders - come to mind here.

Like it or not the way we think about automobiles is and will continue to change. Will they be Hybrids? Fuel Cell? Turbos? Diesels? Plug In's? There will be some interesting vehicles onthe Market in the not-too-distant future.

If you don't like that .... Sorry..... I won't however, engage in name calling or insulting people.

I know the LS7 puts out 505hp, I was saying that if they had to use cheaper parts and mass produce it instead of hand build it, then they could produce a 7 liter that puts out at LEAST 450hp reliably. THEN you can cam swap and you are right back up there with the Z06 version.;) But honestly, not too many of us are willing to swap cams in a brand new car with a powertrain warranty. I'd rather GM build the 450hp for me. (and I'm pulling 450hp out of my ass by the way, it could realisticly be more)

And what I am saying is GM already builds a crate motor version of the LS3 with the cam swap (LS376/480) that puts out 480hp. It actually retails for about the same price as the regular 430hp LS3 crate motor. Just certify that engine for 50-state emissions and you have almost LS7 power for 1/3 of the price. ;)

Of course I am exaggerating a bit here. However, the need to rethink what and how we reach the perfomance levels we really want is going to take a major rethink on the part of the industry and the consumer.

To me after over 100 years of Gasoline powered autos, this is going to be a huge change for the General Public. Is it tantamount to the Manhattan Project and the rush to solve the energy Crisis? Perhaps and Perhaps not?

Where will we be in 10 years. God forbid we end up with some of the junk we had to endure in the past. 170 HP Z28's with a strangled 305, Iron Duke 4 Cylinders - come to mind here.

Like it or not the way we think about automobiles is and will continue to change. Will they be Hybrids? Fuel Cell? Turbos? Diesels? Plug In's? There will be some interesting vehicles onthe Market in the not-too-distant future.

If you don't like that .... Sorry..... I won't however, engage in name calling or insulting people.


John? Is that you?

Charlie from the ICC....

Of course I am exaggerating a bit here. However, the need to rethink what and how we reach the perfomance levels we really want is going to take a major rethink on the part of the industry and the consumer.

To me after over 100 years of Gasoline powered autos, this is going to be a huge change for the General Public. Is it tantamount to the Manhattan Project and the rush to solve the energy Crisis? Perhaps and Perhaps not?

Where will we be in 10 years. God forbid we end up with some of the junk we had to endure in the past. 170 HP Z28's with a strangled 305, Iron Duke 4 Cylinders - come to mind here.

Like it or not the way we think about automobiles is and will continue to change. Will they be Hybrids? Fuel Cell? Turbos? Diesels? Plug In's? There will be some interesting vehicles onthe Market in the not-too-distant future.

If you don't like that .... Sorry..... I won't however, engage in name calling or insulting people.

who's name calling or insulting people??

And what I am saying is GM already builds a crate motor version of the LS3 with the cam swap (LS376/480) that puts out 480hp. It actually retails for about the same price as the regular 430hp LS3 crate motor. Just certify that engine for 50-state emissions and you have almost LS7 power for 1/3 of the price. ;)
closer to 1/2 the price.

And what I am saying is GM already builds a crate motor version of the LS3 with the cam swap (LS376/480) that puts out 480hp. It actually retails for about the same price as the regular 430hp LS3 crate motor. Just certify that engine for 50-state emissions and you have almost LS7 power for 1/3 of the price. ;)


*light goes on over CJ's head*
oh, I get ya now. I'm all for it.

who's name calling or insulting people??

Didn't say anyone was or wasn't name calling. I have seen many conversations on these message sites go that route.

Just saying I won't go there.

I try to be as respectful as I can when posting my comments. Just the way I am.

Didn't say anyone was or wasn't name calling. I have seen many conversations on these message sites go that route.

Not on this one! :cool:

Just saying I won't go there.

I try to be as respectful as I can when posting my comments. Just the way I am.

You are going to fit right in. :cz28:

Not on this one! :cool:



You are going to fit right in. :cz28:

Thank you!. I just had to say that since it was one of my first posts on here.

By the way, I am looking forward to meeting some of you at Indy. I will be there along with several members of our Camaro Club.

closer to 1/2 the price.You're right. I was thinking about the old MSRP for the LS7. :D

Of course I am exaggerating a bit here. However, the need to rethink what and how we reach the perfomance levels we really want is going to take a major rethink on the part of the industry and the consumer.

To me after over 100 years of Gasoline powered autos, this is going to be a huge change for the General Public. Is it tantamount to the Manhattan Project and the rush to solve the energy Crisis? Perhaps and Perhaps not?

Where will we be in 10 years. God forbid we end up with some of the junk we had to endure in the past. 170 HP Z28's with a strangled 305, Iron Duke 4 Cylinders - come to mind here.

Like it or not the way we think about automobiles is and will continue to change. Will they be Hybrids? Fuel Cell? Turbos? Diesels? Plug In's? There will be some interesting vehicles onthe Market in the not-too-distant future......

of course alternative means of transportation will change the world in some way, but a i doubt a hybrid camaro is the answer to the worlds problems. I think they need to raise the standards of trucks and SUVs more.and i think they should apply the CAFE standards to the luxury brands as well.

Scott,
How much more is the LS7 vs. the LS3 in terms of cost (GM's cost, not retail)?

If it is so much more, I could only surmise that the LS9 or LSA is significantly more than that, right?

So what's left as another Z/28 engine option?



Seriously?

I can't say publicly -- but I'll say this: your teeth would hurt if I told you.

You cannot believe the difference in price. (go try and order a shortblock LS7 thru a GM dealer -- and know that the 'internal' price isn't much less!) (remember -- they're hand built.............)

Maybe the Z28 will be the turbo 4 cylinder....

I should not even joke like that:(

I'll say it again.......spend the $$ on making it lighter .... I'll make the LS3 faster, thank you.

I want lighter suspension members, lighter (read: aluminum, hydroformed) suspension and engine cradles, the loss of extraneous options, FWIW, anything that adds weight and no performance enhancement (i.e. body mods), etc... (Don't the "High Mileage" versions of the small cars and now some trucks use aluminum suspension members to achieve their goal?)

I want titanium mufflers; at the very least...the whole system if possible.

I want even better brakes...or at least cross drilled rotors with better pads.

I want a better shock and spring package...lowered, if at all possible. Add in a more aggressive alignment spec too.

I want forged wheels... <19" will work for me...

I want more (race) supportive seats.

Is that too much to ask?

I'll say it again.......spend the $$ on making it lighter .... I'll make the LS3 faster, thank you.

I want lighter suspension members, lighter (read: aluminum, hydroformed) suspension and engine cradles, the loss of extraneous options, FWIW, anything that adds weight and no performance enhancement (i.e. body mods), etc... (Don't the "High Mileage" versions of the small cars and now some trucks use aluminum suspension members to achieve their goal?)

I want titanium mufflers; at the very least...the whole system if possible.

I want even better brakes...or at least cross drilled rotors with better pads.

I want a better shock and spring package...lowered, if at all possible. Add in a more aggressive alignment spec too.

I want forged wheels... <19" will work for me...

I want more (race) supportive seats.

Is that too much to ask?


Doug, you know I want the exact same thing as you, bud. Maybe I need someone to help me see how it could materialize though.

And how much weight could this car possibly lose when compared to an SS? 25 pounds? 50?

You know, we were talking about discipline in the other thread, regarding names. Can this car we're getting, actually be turned into a Z/28?

And how much weight could this car possibly lose when compared to an SS? 25 pounds? 50?

You know, we were talking about discipline in the other thread, regarding names. Can this car we're getting, actually be turned into a Z/28?

Not Doug, but seeing as the Camaro already has an aluminum hood, I'm not sure if adding a carbonfiber one would save that much weight. Ligher rims could help some, and perhaps an aluminum trunk lid if it already isn't aluminum.

Why not simply use the 480hp hot cam version of the LS3, add a free flowing exhaust (GM has already hinted a dealer installed version will be available), bigger brakes, sway bars etc? Heck with the hot cam LS3, exhaust and a better intake, GM should be able to make north of 500hp. :D

The only problem I see is all these options will be available at the GM Parts counter and anyone with deep pockets would be able to turn their SS into a Z/28. But then, perhaps that's what GM wants. ;)

Maybe the Z28 will be the turbo 4 cylinder....

I should not even joke like that:(

Wouldn't bother me if the performance was there. Afterall, the first generation was a small displacement Trans Am style roadracer. I mean, the original was "only" a 302 in the days when 350 cubes and up was the norm for performance cars with most of the "serious" ones being 390 cubes and up.

They just need to take an SS, remove a bunch of the luxury items, drop in the LS7, and call it the Z/28.
this I agree with!

well -- we love HuJass-- but trust me - putting an LS7 in a Camaro would price it out of site...............there are other ways to do a Z28.....


All: it ain't dead! It's on hold. We must rethink EVERY entry -- car/truck/crossover -- simply go look at the sales figures for July and August - if that isn't a 'reality slap in the face' -- nothing is!
Keep the block... heads and size perse... Loose all the exotics and assemble it via a production line. let the aftermarket take care of the rest.. but having a 7L there... will help a ton!

Why not simply use the 480hp hot cam version of the LS3, add a free flowing exhaust (GM has already hinted a dealer installed version will be available), bigger brakes, sway bars etc? Heck with the hot cam LS3, exhaust and a better intake, GM should be able to make north of 500hp. :D

The problem isn't with the power, it's with the weight. If they can make it lighter AND more powerful, by all means go ahead, but I'd take the same 422 horse LS3 in a Z28 that equals the V6 car in terms of curb weight. The question is whether or not that's even possible.

Why not buy a GTO and transplant the engine?

The problem isn't with the power, it's with the weight. If they can make it lighter AND more powerful, by all means go ahead, but I'd take the same 422 horse LS3 in a Z28 that equals the V6 car in terms of curb weight. The question is whether or not that's even possible.


Precisely my view. At this point, I'm *almost* ready to write this gen off regarding it's appropriateness for a Z/28 package, and wait for Alpha.

Losing enough weight to deliver a "proper" Z/28, would essentially require a total re-engineering of Zeta. And I'd doubt GM would give this architecture much more than two nickels to rub together at this point.

On the flip side, I believe General Motors will soon start investing heavily, both in money and manpower, in Alpha. This will be GM's new Global RWD Program. Smaller and lighter than Zeta or Sigma. And they plan to go toe to toe with the best in the world with it. No excuses.

The problem isn't with the power, it's with the weight. If they can make it lighter AND more powerful, by all means go ahead, but I'd take the same 422 horse LS3 in a Z28 that equals the V6 car in terms of curb weight. The question is whether or not that's even possible.


Camaro SS Auto 3913 lbs
Camaro v6 LT Auto 3750 lbs
- 163 lbs.

Camaro SS Manual 3860 lbs
Camaro v6 LT Manual 3741 lbs
- 119 lbs.

-GM/Chevy.com

That's not a very big difference in curb weight. I'd say if GM already builds one Camaro at that weight there could be a potential to get a Z28 there. Send the Camaro to Z06 school. Slim down the glass and get the balsa wood.

Everyone probably has a certain curb weight number in their head like many do for HP. Yours is certainly more possible than say 3600 lbs for Zeta.

Has the high curb weight caused some to make concessions like we do saying that $3.65 gas is a good price!

Has the high curb weight caused some to make concessions like we do saying that $3.65 gas is a good price!

Interesting. In a word, yes.

I figure if GM can't give me a 3500 pound Camaro, they could split the difference and give me a ~3700 pound Z28. Certainly not ideal mind you, but given the architecture we're working with, I would say that is acceptable and would probably renew my interest -- especially considering the alternative of a supercharged car well north of 2 tons.

Precisely my view. At this point, I'm *almost* ready to write this gen off regarding it's appropriateness for a Z/28 package, and wait for Alpha.

Losing enough weight to deliver a "proper" Z/28, would essentially require a total re-engineering of Zeta. And I'd doubt GM would give this architecture much more than two nickels to rub together at this point.

On the flip side, I believe General Motors will soon start investing heavily, both in money and manpower, in Alpha. This will be GM's new Global RWD Program. Smaller and lighter than Zeta or Sigma. And they plan to go toe to toe with the best in the world with it. No excuses.

Aren't you making a huge assumption that the next gen Camaro will even be on Alpha? Up to this point its been nothing but speculation, most of it on your part.

I'd rather live with the 5th gen for a while before selling it down the river as you have. Everything indicates that GM fully intends to give buyers the opportunity to personalize and accessorize this Camaro more than any other in history. Even if there is no Z/28 (which I don't believe will happen), this Camaro is still going to out perform every one that preceded it. :p

Aren't you making a huge assumption that the next gen Camaro will even be on Alpha?

Nope. If there is a next Camaro -- it will be on Alpha.

I'd rather live with the 5th gen for a while before selling it down the river as you have.

Your choice Jeff and with my blessing.

Actually, my feeling is that a whole segment of buyers have been sold down the river here. I guess it's all how you look at things.

Okay, we KNOW the weight of the car now. We KNOW what it looks like. We KNOW how much horse power it will make (give or take a few ponies). We also KNOW (at least most of us) that the Camaro isn't going to LOOSE 300 pounds between now and next April. Can we stop beating the dead horse and either embrace the new Camaro for what it is? The best handling, fastest production Camao in history. (although heavy) Or move on?
Can't we be more constructive with our bitching and try and get GM to use a REAL blue (like Electron, or Stryker) instead of that pantywaiste Aqua Blue?

Okay, we KNOW the weight of the car now. We KNOW what it looks like. We KNOW how much horse power it will make (give or take a few ponies). We also KNOW (at least most of us) that the Camaro isn't going to LOOSE 300 pounds between now and next April. Can we stop beating the dead horse and either embrace the new Camaro for what it is? The best handling, fastest production Camao in history. (although heavy) Or move on?
Can't we be more constructive with our bitching and try and get GM to use a REAL blue (like Electron, or Stryker) instead of that pantywaiste Aqua Blue?The usual suspects on this forum would bitch if they won the lottery about having to pay the taxes on it. I guess they can't see their constant whining isn't helping get anything accomplished. The gave us a Camaro again after 7 long ass years and before they've even drivin it they're moaning about every detail. I agree with the color choices argument, give us electron blue!

A consumer has the right to complain....
They are the ones buying or not buying the product.

The new Ferarri 599 is 4000 pounds and I would bet that you couldnt tell by driving it (610hp V12/47-53 front/rear weight ratio).

A consumer has the right to complain....
They are the ones buying or not buying the product.

I agree. But complaining about things that WILL NOT CHANGE like weight just get's old. Complain about something that isn't set in stone yet. Like that hideous Aqua Blue. It worked for the Torque gauge didn't it? But all the bitching in the world will NOT change the weight of the new Camaro. The Zeta platform will produce car weighing what the Camaro will weigh. Deal with it or wait for the Alpha platform.

I will now begin production of my new million dollar idea!

I will make replacement badges! Peel off those nasty SS badges and stick on my shiny new Z28 ones!

GENIUS!

Muhahahah... :lol:

I agree. But complaining about things that WILL NOT CHANGE like weight just get's old. Complain about something that isn't set in stone yet. Like that hideous Aqua Blue. It worked for the Torque gauge didn't it? But all the bitching in the world will NOT change the weight of the new Camaro. The Zeta platform will produce car weighing what the Camaro will weigh. Deal with it or wait for the Alpha platform.

You are soooo funny!

Deal with the Aqua Blue and stop bitching about it!

Ohhh...this may inspire another blog entry...

:D

You are soooo funny!

Deal with the Aqua Blue and stop bitching about it!

NO. Its not too late for GM to change a color. The weight however..;)

NO. Its not too late for GM to change a color. The weight however..;)

There is as much likelihood of changing the color palette and this point, as there is losing 500 pounds.

DEAL WITH IT! Or go buy a Mustang.....



Ooooh, that felt good. :D

The usual suspects on this forum would bitch if they won the lottery about having to pay the taxes on it. I guess they can't see their constant whining isn't helping get anything accomplished. The gave us a Camaro again after 7 long ass years and before they've even drivin it they're moaning about every detail. I agree with the color choices argument, give us electron blue!

Electron Blue!!!!!! Are you a Camaro enthusiast?! Go buy a Mustang! Accept it EXACTLY as it is and stopyerbitchin'. :lol:

There is as much likelihood of changing the color palette and this point, as there is losing 500 pounds.

DEAL WITH IT! Or go buy a Mustang.....



Ooooh, that felt good. :D


Uh....no. I don't WANT a Mustang. I want the new Camaro. The big fat pig that it is. ;) Maybe you should heed your own advise and get a Mustang yourself if you are soooooooo concerned about weight. Or better yet, get a Solstice or Sky and drop in the LS3. They weigh LESS than 3,000 lbs. AND they come in a hideous blue too.

Electron Blue!!!!!! Are you a Camaro enthusiast?! Go buy a Mustang! Accept it EXACTLY as it is and stopyerbitchin'. :lol:

Hey, at least we can paint the new Camaro and be completely happy with it. What are you going to do? Strip it down to shave weight?

Uh....no. I don't WANT a Mustang. I want the new Camaro. The big fat pig that it is. ;) Maybe you should heed your own advise and get a Mustang yourself if you are soooooooo concerned about weight. Or better yet, get a Solstice or Sky and drop in the LS3. They weigh LESS than 3,000 lbs. AND they come in a hideous blue too.

I see that you have not yet been completely assimilated into the collective. Resistance is futile. I want you ----RIGHT NOW---to pick up your pom-poms and give us a big cheer for Aqua Blue.

If you don't, then you're not a Camaro enthusiast and you should go buy a Mustang.

:lol: :lol:

Electron Blue!!!!!! Are you a Camaro enthusiast?! Go buy a Mustang! Accept it EXACTLY as it is and stopyerbitchin'. :lol:Electron Blue is one of the best color blues GM ever used on a vehicle, I don't care if it was on a vette or not, the color is awesome. I would like it on my 4,000lb Z28.

I see that you have not yet been completely assimilated into the collective. Resistance is futile. I want you ----RIGHT NOW---to pick up your pom-poms and give us a big cheer for Aqua Blue.

If you don't, then you're not a Camaro enthusiast and you should go buy a Mustang.

:lol: :lol:Well the good thing about color choices is they change year to year, unfortunately for you the weight isn't, if anything it will only gain weight during it's life cycle. :lol:

Well the good thing about color choices is they change year to year, unfortunately for you the weight isn't, if anything it will only gain weight during it's life cycle. :lol:


Lifecycle? You've got to be kidding me. Don't hold your breathe for any changes. It is what it is - colors and all. Maybe the next gen will get a new shade of blue for you....

I see that you have not yet been completely assimilated into the collective. Resistance is futile. I want you ----RIGHT NOW---to pick up your pom-poms and give us a big cheer for Aqua Blue.

If you don't, then you're not a Camaro enthusiast and you should go buy a Mustang.

:lol: :lol:

:lol::lol: I gotcher pom poms right here. :D

Perhaps we should just start referring to the Camaro's weight in "stone". Does 271 stone sound lighter? :p

I will now begin production of my new million dollar idea!

I will make replacement badges! Peel off those nasty SS badges and stick on my shiny new Z28 ones!

GENIUS!

Muhahahah... :lol:

:mad: You Stole My Idea!!

Actually, I want a Berlinetta.....I drove a boatload of them between 1979-1986, I liked them. I'm just gonna get a couple of '86 Berlinetta emblems (gosh I hope Chevy/GM still has them...maybe I should buy them now:think:)
and carefully apply them to my 2011 Camaro. I'll need one for the dashboard, too - so I'll believe it's a Berlinetta while I'm driving it... works for me.

There will be a Z-28......Just not until 2011 or 2012, or whenever GM/Chevy plans on releasing it. I am just so glad they brought this car back. My gosh, a Camaro with the little trunk again, 4 wheel disc brakes, independent suspension, dual exhausts, a SIX speed automatic

:mad: You Stole My Idea!!

Actually, I want a Berlinetta.....I drove a boatload of them between 1979-1986, I liked them. I'm just gonna get a couple of '86 Berlinetta emblems (gosh I hope Chevy/GM still has them...maybe I should buy them now:think:)
and carefully apply them to my 2011 Camaro. I'll need one for the dashboard, too - so I'll believe it's a Berlinetta while I'm driving it... works for me.

There will be a Z-28......Just not until 2011 or 2012, or whenever GM/Chevy plans on releasing it. I am just so glad they brought this car back. My gosh, a Camaro with the little trunk again, 4 wheel disc brakes, independent suspension, dual exhausts, a SIX speed automatic

I'll bet dollars to donuts that if we get a Republican congress again soon you'll see the Z28 a heck of lot sooner. ;)

weight can change for the z28, if it ever comes out. As said by another member, all it has to do is go to z's (z06) school... They are both Z's.

I think (and its a tricky word) it can be done w/o getting into the corvette price range.

Loosing 200lbs would get the manual into the 3650 territory which is just a tad heavier than the lt1 ever was.

remove some of the sound deadening, use a thinner carpet, loose the torque gauge and some of those creature comforts that do not appeal to the enthusiast... a simple radio.. p/w, p/l, p/s and a/c its all that is needed for a daily driver.

There is an option for the z06 where there are no side airbags and such. So a few things could be done to conserve weight. And I am NOT asking for an aluminum chassis... What about strictly eliminating the sunroof for the z28, that they all come manuals...No spare tire?

Lifecycle? You've got to be kidding me. Don't hold your breathe for any changes. It is what it is - colors and all. Maybe the next gen will get a new shade of blue for you....

STOP right now! The colors do change from your to year. Less popular ones sometimes get dropped and new ones added. Even the low budget 4th gen had color changes after GM stopped spending money on it. Hugger orange, Pewter, Monterey Maroon, Sunset Orange.... :lol:

...loose the torque gauge and some of those creature comforts that do not appeal to the enthusiast...
FYI, the torque gauge has been dropped across the board. :p

I'll bet dollars to donuts that if we get a Republican congress again soon you'll see the Z28 a heck of lot sooner. ;)

Yea because CAFE is ALL the Democrats doing over the last 1.5 years they've had the majority....... :think:

STOP right now! The colors do change from your to year. Less popular ones sometimes get dropped and new ones added. Even the low budget 4th gen had color changes after GM stopped spending money on it. Hugger orange, Pewter, Monterey Maroon, Sunset Orange.... :lol:

What I'm saying is, that I don't expect lots (if any) changes, MCE's, or anything like that for this car. I don't expect this particulat car to last very long or to have very much money allocated towards any changes for it.

Seriously?

I can't say publicly -- but I'll say this: your teeth would hurt if I told you.

You cannot believe the difference in price. (go try and order a shortblock LS7 thru a GM dealer -- and know that the 'internal' price isn't much less!) (remember -- they're hand built.............)

"internal price isn't much less"? What are you smoking??

And when you take into consideration the blower, two coolers, extra ducting, extra fead, etc... you can't seriously argue that the LS7 is a more expensive engine. It may be close, because of the volume and labor cost of the LS7, but it's clearly the LS9.

But neither one is even close to what you pay for a LS7 at a dealership.

Finally, this whole argument about cost is kind of silly...because even if you bought a brand new LS7 from a dealership - with huge markup - and put it in an SS, it would still be less than a GT500. It's not like the package would be outrageously expensive and nobody would buy it.

"internal price isn't much less"? What are you smoking??

And when you take into consideration the blower, two coolers, extra ducting, extra fead, etc... you can't seriously argue that the LS7 is a more expensive engine. It may be close, because of the volume and labor cost of the LS7, but it's clearly the LS9.

But neither one is even close to what you pay for a LS7 at a dealership.

.......


Hey there Einstein....you do know that Scott knows more about this than you'll ever dream....right?? :think:

Besides, go back and read what he wrote....he was talking about the cost of an LS7 short block and it's retail versus internal cost.....

So put down our own doobie and read what he actually said.... :o

Hey there Einstein....you do know that Scott knows more about this than you'll ever dream....right?? :think:

Besides, go back and read what he wrote....he was talking about the cost of an LS7 short block and it's retail versus internal cost.....


Considering you don't know who I am, that doesn't carry much weight.

Companies don't talk in terms of short block costs. The transfer pricing within the company is in engines dressed as they leave the engine plant. I'm talking about the internal cost of the two engines. I know what an average V8 costs to produce, I know the incremental cost for the LS7 features, and I know the incremental cost for the LS9 features.

I also know what kind of markup gets put onto an engine before you buy it at the dealership.

To say it costs GM $16k to produce an LS7 is just wrong. Not trying to be insulting...but wtf.

dude, you really need to check yourself, and your facts. Thats all im gonna say.

Considering you don't know who I am, that doesn't carry much weight.

Companies don't talk in terms of short block costs. The transfer pricing within the company is in engines dressed as they leave the engine plant. I'm talking about the internal cost of the two engines. I know what an average V8 costs to produce, I know the incremental cost for the LS7 features, and I know the incremental cost for the LS9 features.

I also know what kind of markup gets put onto an engine before you buy it at the dealership.

To say it costs GM $16k to produce an LS7 is just wrong. Not trying to be insulting...but wtf.

So Katech charging over $21k to over $29k for engines that don't have 100k mile warranties is even more unbelievable....right?? :rolleyes:

http://www.katechengines.com/street_performance/engine_packages.php

So Katech charging over $21k to over $29k for engines that don't have 100k mile warranties is even more unbelievable....right?? :rolleyes:


No, that's believable. You can pay $50k for a one-off drag engine, too.

That has zero to do with what it costs GM to manufacture an engine, though.

Do you have a concept of what the engine in your car costs? That's a better question than yours.

What I'm saying is, that I don't expect lots (if any) changes, MCE's, or anything like that for this car. I don't expect this particulat car to last very long or to have very much money allocated towards any changes for it.

OK? :think:

I won't say the 5th gen will last as long as the 4th gen but that's just the nature of how long production cars last these days. IF GM has most programs on hold including the C7 for numerous reasons then I'd say they will ride this gen Camaro for a bit longer than you seem to think. If they don't have a replacement Alpha or not they arn't likely to just drop the Camaro line w/o replacement. In fact I think they've said if the Camaro dies again it won't be on hiatus.

That being said, color changes are just normal yearly updates for any car and are not expensive. GM will still make improvements on this car as they do on any vehicle. That won't change.

IF GM has most programs on hold including the C7 for numerous reasons then I'd say they will ride this gen Camaro for a bit longer than you seem to think. If they don't have a replacement Alpha or not they arn't likely to just drop the Camaro line w/o replacement.

My feeling is that this particular program is simply unsustainable by GM for very long. I wonder what the cost numbers are, to run the Oshawa line for 50-60,000 Camaros --- when it was built for 400,000 Zetas? Oh yeah, Zeta. I'm sure control arms, bushings, steering columns, etc, don't have the same unit cost from suppliers when you only order less than 20% of the originally planned volume.

By 2011, the most fuel sipping Camaro will be more than 5 mpg below CAFE standards. 7 MPG below the year after. 8 MPG below the year after that, and so on. That's for the V6 mind you. That's going to be a BIG problem for someone.

When Alpha comes online, it will need Chevy to give it the volume which Zeta never realized. If there is a Camaro on Alpha, GM will need to bring it quickly, for cost reasons, CAFE reasons, and consumer acceptance reasons.

Yeah, they might throw a new color on the 5th gen in meantime - I was just having some fun with those guys.

Yea because CAFE is ALL the Democrats doing over the last 1.5 years they've had the majority....... :think:

Uh no, not all of CAFE is because of the last 1.5 years. But the NEW proposed standards HAVE come up in the last 1.5 years. The standards that are strangling automakers. Thank Nancy Peloci and her miniuns of tree hugging nut bags for trying to stifle the American auto industry.:mad::yes:
Perhaps Scott could enlighten in a more politically correct way. Me, I don't HAVE to say nice things about that Moonbat Peloci.

No, that's believable. You can pay $50k for a one-off drag engine, too.

That has zero to do with what it costs GM to manufacture an engine, though.

Do you have a concept of what the engine in your car costs? That's a better question than yours.

So hand built engines have nothing in common?

I have plenty of insight of what things cost...you seem to think that GM can magicaly hand build engines for less than half of what it takes a private company......all the while providing warranties, paying benefits, etc.....right.:lol:

Considering you don't know who I am

No offense intended, but are we supposed to? If we do, fill us in. :) We do know who Scott Settlemire is, which is why it is easy to trust what he says. If we didn't know him, we would question is words as well. Nothing personal. We just have to consider the familiarity of the source.

Uh no, not all of CAFE is because of the last 1.5 years. But the NEW proposed standards HAVE come up in the last 1.5 years. The standards that are strangling automakers. Thank Nancy Peloci and her miniuns of tree hugging nut bags for trying to stifle the American auto industry.:mad::yes:
Perhaps Scott could enlighten in a more politically correct way. Me, I don't HAVE to say nice things about that Moonbat Peloci.

CAFE is here to stay, regardless of who might be in the WH.

The big 3 are spending/going to spend tens of billions of dollars on a completely different product mix and manufacturing capability. The genie is already out of the bottle here.

And for now, this all seems to match what consumers are wanting.

CAFE is here to stay, regardless of who might be in the WH.

The big 3 are spending/going to spend tens of billions of dollars on a completely different product mix and manufacturing capability. The genie is already out of the bottle here.

And for now, this all seems to match what consumers are wanting.
Yep, hybrids are today's pet rock. :D

Yep, hybrids are today's pet rock. :D

Very true. A true plug in is the future. Anyone have any strong feelings on Compressed Natural Gas? From what I know, it would keep our beloved internal cumbustion and not effect horse power output. (the hp part I'm not sure about). It's cheap, its plentiful, and its AMERICAN. No import needed. I would think that would throw future MPG mandates on it's ear.

Very true. A true plug in is the future. Anyone have any strong feelings on Compressed Natural Gas? From what I know, it would keep our beloved internal cumbustion and not effect horse power output. (the hp part I'm not sure about). It's cheap, its plentiful, and its AMERICAN. No import needed. I would think that would throw future MPG mandates on it's ear.
On the downside, CNG has half the range of gasoline and takes longer to refuel. I have experience with LPG conversions (many years ago) and they also have some benefit.

IMHO, hydrogen fuel cells are the future. However I think they're still a ways off from replacing the ICE.

Found a site about CNG (Compressed Natural Gas)
www.cngnow.com

No offense intended, but are we supposed to? If we do, fill us in. :) We do know who Scott Settlemire is, which is why it is easy to trust what he says. If we didn't know him, we would question is words as well. Nothing personal. We just have to consider the familiarity of the source.

Just some faceless guy who makes engines. I don't know who Scott Settlemire is, but I'm sure he normally knows what he's talking about. I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is pretty far out of left field....costing GM $16k, or whatever, for that engine.

Just some faceless guy who makes engines. I don't know who Scott Settlemire is, but I'm sure he normally knows what he's talking about. I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is pretty far out of left field....costing GM $16k, or whatever, for that engine.

Scott Settlemire WORKS for GM and is a Major Player in the Camaro. ;) He is THE MAN when it comes to Camaro insider stuff. Period. His handle is Fbodfather for a reason.

http://www.moheet.com/image/52/225-300/525498.jpg

google?!?! Ever heard of it?

http://wiki.gmnext.com/wiki/index.php/Scott_Settlemire

My feeling is that this particular program is simply unsustainable by GM for very long. I wonder what the cost numbers are, to run the Oshawa line for 50-60,000 Camaros --- when it was built for 400,000 Zetas? Oh yeah, Zeta. I'm sure control arms, bushings, steering columns, etc, don't have the same unit cost from suppliers when you only order less than 20% of the originally planned volume.

By 2011, the most fuel sipping Camaro will be more than 5 mpg below CAFE standards. 7 MPG below the year after. 8 MPG below the year after that, and so on. That's for the V6 mind you. That's going to be a BIG problem for someone.

When Alpha comes online, it will need Chevy to give it the volume which Zeta never realized. If there is a Camaro on Alpha, GM will need to bring it quickly, for cost reasons, CAFE reasons, and consumer acceptance reasons.

Yeah, they might throw a new color on the 5th gen in meantime - I was just having some fun with those guys.


It's all very plausable but I'd have to think GM thought this throught before going forward with the Camaro at Oshawa. GM is no stranger to beating up on the suppliers if they need to cut back orders by say 80% and still hold the price. The economy isn't good enough for many to say no.

CAFE is still and average across the board. IF GM feels that they will have enough fuel sipping little cars and the Volt to sell in 2011 and beyond that it can offset the Camaro/Vette then this won't be as big of a deal as it seems now. Not every vehicle sold has to have better mpg than CAFE. We both know it would be in GM's best interest for itself and the Camaro to get the mpg up as high as possible but it's not a do or die kind of option.

I thought you were being facetious about the colors.... ;)

Just some faceless guy who makes engines. I don't know who Scott Settlemire is, but I'm sure he normally knows what he's talking about. I'm not trying to be a dick, but this is pretty far out of left field....costing GM $16k, or whatever, for that engine.

Well many more people here know Scott than you or me so let's just leave that alone.
Obviously GM, the company where Scott works and the Camaro team of which he is a part of looked at these engine options for the Camaro and maybe for a Z28. The engine price of the LS7 no matter what it is was obviously deemed to be too expensive to be used. End of story. There is no debate. Rest assured that Scott wouldn't use the phrase "will make your teeth hurt" if it price difference was close. Again this goes back to knowing him. They have to look at the big picture and there is far more to this than just swapping in a LS7 under a tree in someone’s yard. Which is still a great option for those still bent on having it...

Thanks for the link - he's obviously a very knowledgeable guy. But I don't see that he's an engineer or an engine guy. Or that he's been a part of an engine operation. We have product managers at our company, too. I mean, you can compare this engine to the Viper engine or the GT engine. $16k isn't even in the ballpark...and it's crazy to say a dealership charges roughly what it costs them. The markup I've seen over the years has made me puke. I could probably guess the cost of this engine +- $500 dollars, and it's a long way from $16k.

Not being a dick or insulting anybody...just telling you my view.

Thanks for the link - he's obviously a very knowledgeable guy. But I don't see that he's an engineer or an engine guy. Or that he's been a part of an engine operation. We have product managers at our company, too. I mean, you can compare this engine to the Viper engine or the GT engine. $16k isn't even in the ballpark...and it's crazy to say a dealership charges roughly what it costs them. The markup I've seen over the years has made me puke. I could probably guess the cost of this engine +- $500 dollars, and it's a long way from $16k.

Not being a dick or insulting anybody...just telling you my view.

:no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

Geez, with all the production experience Scott has, and his intimate involvement with the Fourth Gen and the work on promoting the Fifth Gen, how can you say something like that. My goodness.

And Yeah I am somewhat new to this board. But I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

I like turnips. :barf:

Not being a dick or insulting anybody...just telling you my view.

Fair enough, but don't let your judgment be clouded, Scott doesn't make things up and he is far from your average project manager type of person at GM. I have heard people say that there is no one in GM like him and I believe it.

He's a good friend of many and many people rely on him for facts and solid data, including myself. You should try to meet him one day if you can.

No big deal, it is hard to explain how significant of a person Scott really is in the Camaro world to someone who doesn't know.

Fair enough, but don't let your judgment be clouded, Scott doesn't make things up and he is far from your average project manager type of person at GM. I have heard people say that there is no one in GM like him and I believe it.

He's a good friend of many and many people rely on him for facts and solid data, including myself. You should try to meet him one day if you can.

No big deal, it is hard to explain how significant of a person Scott really is in the Camaro world to someone who doesn't know.

I have had the good fortune to meet Scott and sit and chat with him for a few hours recently. Jason, you are absolutely 100% correct. There are not many like him within GM, and I deal with a lot of those folks all the time(professionally).

It is hard for people, sometimes to understand that he has to protect the interests of GM, which is no small feat these days. His candor and open communication with the Camaro community is something which we should appreciate.

I'll shut up now and watch from the corner.

i read some of the posts not all of them and i got to say its kinda funny to see how some of you guys get worked up.

id rather see a slightly higher horsepower engine then the ss and some weight reduction. maybe for a z28 they could use composite doors, fender,trunk lid, and hood and lose the independent suspension and go for a strait axle. maybe they could lose some weight in other places that im unaware of as well. yah it might cost more like 45-50k but i mean whats sounds better a 450hp car thats light weight maybe 34-3500 after a diet if possible or a 550 car that weighs 41-4200 pounds.

and i know the strait axle may seem like a step back for some but to others it probably not. i mean lets face it most people who would buy a 550 hp gas guzzling car are going to enthusiasts and racers. im sure most drag racers would rather have a strait axle.

No big deal, it is hard to explain how significant of a person Scott really is in the Camaro world to someone who doesn't know.

That's cool - I don't mean any disrespect. I'll just say that my experience with 'specialized' engine programs and dealership parts markup are very different from what Scott described...and leave it at that.

Who knows, maybe GM has actually mismanaged their business so much that it actually costs them several times what a hand-built Viper engine or GT engine does. I don't know how you'd pull that off, but more power to them.

And to clarify, I'm a huge fan of the LS7 engine.

id rather see a slightly higher horsepower engine then the ss and some weight reduction. maybe for a z28 they could use composite doors, fender,trunk lid, and hood and lose the independent suspension and go for a strait axle. maybe they could lose some weight in other places that im unaware of as well. yah it might cost more like 45-50k but i mean whats sounds better a 450hp car thats light weight maybe 34-3500 after a diet if possible or a 550 car that weighs 41-4200 pounds.

My head hurts :bang:

It's all very plausable but I'd have to think GM thought this throught before going forward with the Camaro at Oshawa. GM is no stranger to beating up on the suppliers if they need to cut back orders by say 80% and still hold the price. The economy isn't good enough for many to say no.

CAFE is still and average across the board. IF GM feels that they will have enough fuel sipping little cars and the Volt to sell in 2011 and beyond that it can offset the Camaro/Vette then this won't be as big of a deal as it seems now. Not every vehicle sold has to have better mpg than CAFE. We both know it would be in GM's best interest for itself and the Camaro to get the mpg up as high as possible but it's not a do or die kind of option.

I thought you were being facetious about the colors.... ;)

Is the "Gas Guzzler" threshold changing? Right now it's 22.5 MPG.

So I'm not so sure if it's as simple as selling X many Aveos for every one Camaro and then all is good. Imagine for a moment if the threshold does go up - which I'm pretty sure it will. Not only would Camaro be eating up all of those Aveo and Cobalt CAFE mpg credits, (Volt's contribution won't be significant for years), it would also be slapped with a "Gas Guzzler" tax.
Do you think Camaro's traditional audience is willing to pay - oh, say an extra 1000 bucks in tax? Would GM be willing or even capable of absorbing that? I'd think no on both counts.

Like I said, the further down the road we get, the tougher the picture gets for this car.

Is the "Gas Guzzler" threshold changing? Right now it's 22.5 MPG.

So I'm not so sure if it's as simple as selling X many Aveos for every one Camaro and then all is good. Imagine for a moment if the threshold does go up - which I'm pretty sure it will. Not only would Camaro be eating up all of those Aveo and Cobalt CAFE mpg credits, (Volt's contribution won't be significant for years), it would also be slapped with a "Gas Guzzler" tax.
Do you think Camaro's traditional audience is willing to pay - oh, say an extra 1000 bucks in tax? Would GM be willing or even capable of absorbing that? I'd think no on both counts.

Like I said, the further down the road we get, the tougher the picture gets for this car.

+1

im sure almost any car GM makes, they will need it on the positive side of the MPG scale to offset the trucks.

Fair enough, but don't let your judgment be clouded, Scott doesn't make things up ... many people rely on him for facts and solid data, including myself.

http://camaro5.com/forums/images/smilies/word.gif

...I may be a long-time lurker and first-time poster, but I've learned a thing or two in the year-plus I've been reading this forum. And one of those things is this: if Scott says it, you can damn sure bet your ASS it's legit. And for that I say "Bravo, Scott, BRAVO."

I'll just point out on page 10 that GM has announced a 550HP LSA-based Cadillac CTS-V Coupe.

Given that, if I was Bob Lutz, I wouldn't say a word about a possible cheaper Chevy version with the same engine.

http://camaro5.com/forums/images/smilies/word.gif

...I may be a long-time lurker and first-time poster, but I've learned a thing or two in the year-plus I've been reading this forum. And one of those things is this: if Scott says it, you can damn sure bet your ASS it's legit. And for that I say "Bravo, Scott, BRAVO."

Scott also said "big honkin V8" but all that was offered is the same ol small block.

Scott also said "forget everything you thought you knew about engines" when the v8 was being discussed/speculated about and in the end it was exactly what everyone already thought with a small variation (L99) being the only difference.

Scott also said "big honkin V8" but all that was offered is the same ol small block.

Scott also said "forget everything you thought you knew about engines" when the v8 was being discussed/speculated about and in the end it was exactly what everyone already thought with a small variation (L99) being the only difference.

i too was a lil disapointed and when pressed about the weight of the vehicle all we got was "keep the faith"

i agree with you on the "Big Honkin V8" part.I was expecting a larger engine (maybe a poor mans LS7 with an iron block and less exotic internals) to possibly take the place of my galaxie, torque is king when you need to push weight of some of these cars! but i guess a small block can still make decent power if you wind it out enough.

Scott also said "big honkin V8" but all that was offered is the same ol small block.

Scott also said "forget everything you thought you knew about engines" when the v8 was being discussed/speculated about and in the end it was exactly what everyone already thought with a small variation (L99) being the only difference.

At what part of the Camaro's developement were these quotes made? Keep in mind that budgets get changed during the developement of a vehicle. Not to mention Gas jumping up in price. This car has been in the works for over 3 years. Look what all has changed since then. Stricter CAFE standards, Higher Gas Prices, an economy that has seen better days. How narrow minded would GM be to stick with a "big honking V8" if that was thier initial plan given those unforseen changes? Sometimes consessions have to be made to fit a changing market from what was originally planned.;)

:rolleyes:

And another thing...

Keep in mind that the information any one person can give is only as accurate in the end as the corporation allows it to be. What I mean is this: when Scott said "big honkin' V8" (I'm still waiting on a thread-link, by the way) I'm sure that was the plan at the time. What GM does or does not allow to actually make it to production really doesn't have any bearing on the accuracy of the information at the time Scott gives it to us. I repeat: if he says it, you can bet your ass it's legit (at least at the time that he says it).

As mentioned above, things can change and can and probably will continue to change. This is true especially in the automotive industry. Anyone who knows anything about the business should already be well aware of this.

Drastic sweeping changes to the economy impacted everything. Again, you all are aware of this because it impacts each and everyone one of us. The automotive industry is not immune to this and was hit pretty hard on a global level and changes had to be made, which directly correlates to the subject of this very thread.

Considering that fact, what Scott says can be considered accurate at the time it is said. This is how anything works with anyone, really. If the facts change like they do, that doesn't make him wrong so there so need to pick apart his every word and then try to call him on it later as he has no reason to lie to anyone, especially us here.

Funny story about his role and misunderstandings...

He actually got direct hate mail for "canceling" the Camaro. I find that funny because people think he made the decision and he is GM. On the contrary, he helped keep it alive for a LOT longer than it was supposed to be. He also helped make the 35th Anniversary package happen with little to no budget...years after the car was supposed to be done. And people blame him. :lol:

I was with him the day the car was canceled (blog entry here (http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/blog.php?b=54)) and believe me, he was far from happy about the decision that he fought against for longer than anyone else would.

I think we are all lucky to have someone like Scott feeding us the information that he has been throughout the whole development of the Camaro. I've pm'ed Scott in the past with questions, and he has been nothing but nice and very easy to talk to. Lets not bite the hand that feeds us by picking apart stuff he says. Scott deserves the utmost respect and I personally feel like there have been times in the past where he may have put his ass on the line to give up that little bit of information so that we would all keep the faith.

In light of Congress proposing to bailout the automotive industry, and planning to do so before the elections this November; perhaps a supercharged V8 will be back on the table. ;)

Coming from someone who's butted heads with Scott alot lately - hell, not lately, for the past dozen years actually - he's the only one at GM who's got the balls to actually get out with folks and interact the way he does. And I said just that to him last time we got together.

Can I honestly say that 100% of the info he dispenses to us is always correct? No. But that's not the point. The point is that while many at GM are cowering in their cubicles - not wanting to get involved, not wanting to expose themselves, not wanting to risk their careers - Scott embraces the opposite.

Scott, when I see you at Indy, your chardonay on the rocks is on me.....

Coming from someone who's butted heads with Scott alot lately - hell, not lately, for the past dozen years actually - he's the only one at GM who's got the balls to actually get out with folks and interact the way he does. And I said just that to him last time we got together.

Can I honestly say that 100% of the info he dispenses to us is always correct? No. But that's not the point. The point is that while many at GM are cowering in their cubicles - not wanting to get involved, not wanting to expose themselves, not wanting to risk their careers - Scott embraces the opposite.

Scott, when I see you at Indy, your chardonay on the rocks is on me.....


Amen to that.

When I have looked at Scott's postings on here and other boards, all I have seen is his willingness to share what he can at any given time during all of this.

You are 100% correct, he is one of the few who takes the time to talk, listen, debate, and celebrate with the enthusiast community.

He also, tends to keep us grounded in the realities of the marketplace and the engineering requirements needed to bring this car to the street.

This is something, I personally find refreshing in this brutal business.

Let's face a certain reality here. When a major manufacturer brings a product to market, they are doing their best to try and make it something which will please the consumer, is safe, meets all of the various mandated requirements, and still make money for the company. Will everyone be happy with every aspect. No.... and that is okay.

The success of any given product, will be based on what we as consumers want at any given time. Any of the vehicles produced by teh General are intended to satisfy the consumer. They are huge gambles on the part of GM.

during my entire career, I have watched the highs and the lows of the auto iundustry. The mindest has changed during the last 15 years as the competition has forced change in, what I regard, as a positive way.

Better quality, better economy, better safety, better reliability, and competitive designs. It adds up to a win for us as consumers.

We, the general public, have the right to decide what suits our needs. We have been blessed here in North America, to have a very diverse and interesting mix of vehicles from which we can make our decisions.

Where else in the world, do we have such a rich selection of transportation options????? It makes me gald to be living in an age where we can enjoy our various life experiences.

To me, I am glad we have this type of vehicle, which we can elect to purchase.

Now, I need to get to a responsible dealer, and place my order for a red jewel tintcoat, SS/RS... Six Speed Manual......Leather interior.

Scott also said "big honkin V8" but all that was offered is the same ol small block.


You really seem to have an axe to grind with Scott. I expect that particular statement was made when many here were expecting or just assuming that we were getting the 5.3L. If a 6.2L in a ~$30k coupe doesn't qualify as a "big honkin" V8 then I don't know what does. It is significantly larger engine than anything in its class except the 6.1L SRT8 Challenger and we all know what one of those costs.

My head hurts :bang:

your head may hurt but lets face it your not gona get a 550 supercharged engine and i my self have said this 100 times and ill stick with it. it seems more realistic to me for them to do some weight reduction and increase horse power slightly like they did on the z06. the idea seams far more plausible then them taken the engine (whether its detuned or not) from there 107k halo car to put in the camaro. even though my example might have been a little on the extreme. how do you even price something like that.

okay you can buy a camaro with that engine for 50k and re tune the engine and a pulley and few other mods and be at the vets level so i doubt it be 50k compared to a 107k zr1 i doubt 50k is a realistic price for that car. so what 65-70 k for it? at that point why even get the camaro when you can get a z06. and most of you who are complaining about not getting probably couldn't afford it even if they did build im not trying to be a jerk but lets be realistic here.

bang your head up against a wall all you want about my earlier statement but like i said your idea of geting a supercharged halo camaro is more far fetched considering all aspects of what would go into it and then pricing it. gm has use the same concept with the corvette with weight reduction and increasing horsepower so a z28 based on this idea is not far fetched even if i did take it a little to the extreme.

Is the "Gas Guzzler" threshold changing? Right now it's 22.5 MPG.

So I'm not so sure if it's as simple as selling X many Aveos for every one Camaro and then all is good. Imagine for a moment if the threshold does go up - which I'm pretty sure it will. Not only would Camaro be eating up all of those Aveo and Cobalt CAFE mpg credits, (Volt's contribution won't be significant for years), it would also be slapped with a "Gas Guzzler" tax.
Do you think Camaro's traditional audience is willing to pay - oh, say an extra 1000 bucks in tax? Would GM be willing or even capable of absorbing that? I'd think no on both counts.

Like I said, the further down the road we get, the tougher the picture gets for this car.


I'm not sure if the gas guzzler tax is changing. One would think but things are less than certain in Detroit and D.C. especially on this front. Gas guzzler is different than CAFE in that it directly affects the Camaro and Mustang/Challenger/Genesis for that matter.

I agree no Camaro or any new car buyer owner would want to pay a gas guzzler tax. GM will/does have some work to do to bring up the mpg and we’ll have to see what that is once the car goes on sale.

However when would an Alpha based Camaro even be ready? I think we agree programs like that if started are probably on hold right now. I still think the 5th Gen Camaro lasts 4-5 years.

Forget the big honkin v8. I want the Z-28 to be ALL carbon-fiber (frame, body, wheels, EVERYTHING) with 2 solid-fuel rocket boosters where those ugly reverse lights are. Who cares for practicality anyway? I'm not going backwards in a rocket, right? 12-speed manumatic transmission engineered by NASA (obviously, with the rocket boosters), any color I want, baby seal skin interior, cigar humidor where that god-awful torque gauge cluster is, and all of that for $40k. Or just less than a Corvette. Is that too much to ask? If GM doesn't offer a carbon-fiber ROCKET with "Z-28" on the side...I'll probably just buy the V6.

EDIT - did some research - solid rocket boosters are surprisingly heavy. Totally negates the carbon fiber Camaro, or Carbomaro-F, for short (notice the "F"-reference!). Replace the boosters with pneumatic holding tanks. Power the Z-28 with pressurized air from all the hot-air complaints blowing around these forums. I'll just need a place to plug in my laptop to load up a "Z-28" or "weight reduction" thread when the Carbomaro-F needs refueling.

Forget the big honkin v8. I want the Z-28 to be ALL carbon-fiber (frame, body, wheels, EVERYTHING) with 2 solid-fuel rocket boosters where those ugly reverse lights are. Who cares for practicality anyway? I'm not going backwards in a rocket, right? 12-speed manumatic transmission engineered by NASA (obviously, with the rocket boosters), any color I want, baby seal skin interior, cigar humidor where that god-awful torque gauge cluster is, and all of that for $40k. Or just less than a Corvette. Is that too much to ask? If GM doesn't offer a carbon-fiber ROCKET with "Z-28" on the side...I'll probably just buy the V6.

EDIT - did some research - solid rocket boosters are surprisingly heavy. Totally negates the carbon fiber Camaro, or Carbomaro-F, for short (notice the "F"-reference!). Replace the boosters with pneumatic holding tanks. Power the Z-28 with pressurized air from all the hot-air complaints blowing around these forums. I'll just need a place to plug in my laptop to load up a "Z-28" or "weight reduction" thread when the Carbomaro-F needs refueling.

Gee, what about the six pot ceramic Brembos????

Carbon Fibre F-1 engineered Suspension Components??

AWD?????

$40k is way too much to pay for something like this...... Needs to be closer to $30k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If a 6.2L in a ~$30k coupe doesn't qualify as a "big honkin" V8 then I don't know what does.

+1 :cool:

your head may hurt but lets face it your not gona get a 550 supercharged engine and i my self have said this 100 times and ill stick with it.

95grncamaro
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 10
:think: 100=10? :no:

I'm not sure if the gas guzzler tax is changing. One would think but things are less than certain in Detroit and D.C. especially on this front. Gas guzzler is different than CAFE in that it directly affects the Camaro and Mustang/Challenger/Genesis for that matter.

I agree no Camaro or any new car buyer owner would want to pay a gas guzzler tax. GM will/does have some work to do to bring up the mpg and we’ll have to see what that is once the car goes on sale.

However when would an Alpha based Camaro even be ready? I think we agree programs like that if started are probably on hold right now. I still think the 5th Gen Camaro lasts 4-5 years.


This Camaro had a projected 5 year lifecyle - before new CAFE, before the implosion of Zeta, before $4 gas.

On a related note, it appears that Alpha is a top priority at Cadillac right now. And if they can get the resources, many at GM want to speed up it's release. Although a recent report had Alpha coming in late 2010, I think that's unrealistic. It's possible that Alpha could be here by MY '12.

In light of Congress proposing to bailout the automotive industry, and planning to do so before the elections this November; perhaps a supercharged V8 will be back on the table. ;)

I'm sure that would be the first thing on the agenda, sure. :|

Nothing gives the perception of "I'm spending money responsibly and working hard toward fuel economy goals" more than adding a nuclear reactor under the hood of Camaro, especially when you're fighting CAFE standards. :lol:

Personally i really don't care about a 600 hp Camaro. I want a Camaro because it's affordable. 400 hp is plenty. I am more interested in miles per gallon than racing around the streets. I don't even care about having a ZR1. Given the choice i'd take the base Vette. I'd rather have them put the money in making the V6 Camaro, and regular V8 as good as they can, because those are the cars the public is actually going to buy, as opposed to the few thousand per year that might buy a Super Camaro.

your head may hurt but lets face it your not gona get a 550 supercharged engine and i my self have said this 100 times and ill stick with it. it seems more realistic to me for them to do some weight reduction and increase horse power slightly like they did on the z06. the idea seams far more plausible then them taken the engine (whether its detuned or not) from there 107k halo car to put in the camaro. even though my example might have been a little on the extreme. how do you even price something like that.

okay you can buy a camaro with that engine for 50k and re tune the engine and a pulley and few other mods and be at the vets level so i doubt it be 50k compared to a 107k zr1 i doubt 50k is a realistic price for that car. so what 65-70 k for it? at that point why even get the camaro when you can get a z06. and most of you who are complaining about not getting probably couldn't afford it even if they did build im not trying to be a jerk but lets be realistic here.

bang your head up against a wall all you want about my earlier statement but like i said your idea of geting a supercharged halo camaro is more far fetched considering all aspects of what would go into it and then pricing it. gm has use the same concept with the corvette with weight reduction and increasing horsepower so a z28 based on this idea is not far fetched even if i did take it a little to the extreme.

A few points:
---The banging head was in response to the 500lb weight reduction fantasy (just my opinion of course :))that has already been beaten to death on this board. I think I've already made my case for a supercharged 550hp Camaro and I try not to use absolutely every post of mine as a soapbox for my opinion on it....unlike SOME of those with the "Camaro is an overweight pig" or the "The Z28 should be a lightweight" opinions. If it would have been cheap or realistic to substantially drop the weight, don't you think it would have been done? Really, it's getting very, very tiresome :tired:

--- Not sure where you've said a 550hp supercharged engine isn't going to happen "100 times". Definitely not in the 5th Gen area were you've only posted twice. Maybe it was in the lounge where 70% of your posts are?
---The 556HP engine some people (like me) are talking about is the same LSA used in the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V, not the 638HP LS9 used in the ZR1.
---As far as possible pricing for an LSA powered Camaro IF (which I know is very questionable right now) it were to be made, I'd guess/hope not much more than $45,000 considering that:
-The 6 Cylinder CTS is just under $35,000 with an "expected" price for the LSA powered CTS-V to be $60,000.
-The Camaro's price is expected to be "close" to that of a comparable Mustang. The V6 mustang is just under $20,000, tack on the $25K jump between the 6 Cyl CTS and the LSA CTS-V and you get $45K. The GT500 is just under $43K.

Oh, and by the way....I CAN realistically afford it.

A few points:
---The banging head was in response to the 500lb weight reduction fantasy (just my opinion of course :))that has already been beaten to death on this board. I think I've already made my case for a supercharged 550hp Camaro and I try not to use absolutely every post of mine as a soapbox for my opinion on it....unlike SOME of those with the "Camaro is an overweight pig" or the "The Z28 should be a lightweight" opinions. If it would have been cheap or realistic to substantially drop the weight, don't you think it would have been done? Really, it's getting very, very tiresome :tired:

--- Not sure where you've said a 550hp supercharged engine isn't going to happen "100 times". Definitely not in the 5th Gen area were you've only posted twice. Maybe it was in the lounge where 70% of your posts are?
---The 556HP engine some people (like me) are talking about is the same LSA used in the 2009 Cadillac CTS-V, not the 638HP LS9 used in the ZR1.
---As far as pricing possible pricing for an LSA powered Camaro IF (which I know is very questionable right now) it were to be made I'd guess/hope not much more than $45,000 considering that:
-The 6 Cylinder CTS is just under $35,000 with an "expected" price for the LSA powered CTS-V to be $60,000.
-The Camaro's price is expected to be "close" to that of a comparable Mustang. The V6 mustang is just under $20,000, tack on the $25K jump between the 6 Cyl CTS and the LSA CTS-V and you get $45K. The GT500 is just under $43K.

Oh, and by the way....I CAN realistically afford it.:bow:

X2 Ron!!