Time for some "Fuel and Ignition" stickies - ideas????

Probably a good idea to post some links to, or do some original writeups on FAQ topics like:

-4th Gen fuel pump install - "by the book"
-4th Gen fuel pump install - "cut a hole"
-Racetronix fuel pump install instructions (they don't seem to provide any???)
-injector sizing
-injector part numbers/sizes
-fule pump part numbers/capacity

Any other suggestions for topics are welcome. Any links to the above topics will be considered for inclusion. If you have an original writeup you would like to contribute, let me know.

I would like to see something on injector sizing.

I'm pretty sure I have the Racetronix instructions at home. If I scanned them to contribute to the board do you think this would cause potential copyright issues?

I don't know about the Racetronix instructions. I guess one of us could ask for permission. You would have to do it, because at least one person at Racetronix doesn't care too much for me.

I would like to see what injector brand/type fits the best in the rail and manifold itself. ie. accel, msd, venom, delphi, bosch, Ford ect. and what the general consensus is on that particular brand.

Jeff

spark plug chart.......a good one.

I'm not smart enough to write it though........your lucky I can even read/write period :D

Probably a good idea to post some links to, or do some original writeups on FAQ topics like:

-Racetronix fuel pump install instructions (they don't seem to provide any???)...

We have included instructions with our FLT1 harness and pump assembly for a number of years now.

We do not like people posting our instructions on the net. One reason is that we want customers to come to us so we know they are getting the latest revision.

If a valued customer is missing the instructions all they have to do is e-mail support@racetronix.com with their contact info, vendor name and product number and we will send them what they require in PDF format.

I guess one of us could ask for permission. You would have to do it, because at least one person at Racetronix doesn't care too much for me.

There is nobody here that has a problem with you Injuneer. If you care to explain why you think this you can e-mail us about it.

There is nobody here that has a problem with you Injuneer. If you care to explain why you think this you can e-mail us about it.

E-mail sent.

-fuel line size and type vs max HP @ X PSI
-fuel injector Duty cycle @ max Pulse Width @ X RPM
-fuel injector MAX HP @ X RPM @ X PSI
-brake specific fuel consumption calculator
-fuel consumptions calculator GPH via inj size & PW @ X RPM
-dual factory pump y-block install instructions
-lets get crazy here what do different fuel filters flow????

You would have to do it, because at least one person at Racetronix doesn't care too much for me.

if it makes you feel better...
I hate your guts!
:p

Damn, now there are two people who don't like me. :) :) :) :)

Here is the best trap door fuel pump install i could find. http://www.geocities.com/formulapower2/fuelpump.html
No one individual has contributed more to my passion of cars than Injuneer so love him or hate him we all need him. Hope this doesn't sound like sucking up.:):):):)

Disregard my comments around Racetronix... we have worked it out.

We do not like people posting our instructions on the net. One reason is that we want customers to come to us so we know they are getting the latest revision.

If a valued customer is missing the instructions all they have to do is e-mail support@racetronix.com with their contact info, vendor name and product number and we will send them what they require in PDF format.



Do you think it would be possible if you could post the latest version on the net? The only reason I ask is that I have come across past posts where customers have been in a bind where they needed to get their Racetronix pumps installed promptly, but were unable to get ahold of someone at Racetronix to get the instructions. If you posted the directions here and maybe updated it whenever a revision is made, it might make it easier for existing and future customers of your pumps.

Something for modifying fuel rails/hard lines for AN fittings. Style and part# for compression fittings for adapting hard lines to braided lines.

Common fuel system setups. Everyone is always asking about parallel versus series and where to mount the regulator, filters, etc.

-fuel line size and type vs max HP @ X PSI
-fuel injector Duty cycle @ max Pulse Width @ X RPM
-fuel injector MAX HP @ X RPM @ X PSI
-brake specific fuel consumption calculator
-fuel consumptions calculator GPH via inj size & PW @ X RPM
-dual factory pump y-block install instructions
-lets get crazy here what do different fuel filters flow????

I think this would be very helpful.

YES, we need a sticky!

I am new to this forum, but have worked on my Mustang quite a bit. But as I get older, my memory and what I know seem to get confused, so a sticky would be a great place to look for all info for injectors, sizing, pressure, etc.

Most of the posts when I did a search was for 'what size with this engine' (injuneer answered this), 'what brand and why', and 'matched set and why'

Not having replaced my fuel pump (yet) I assume that you have to drop the tank to do it 'by the book'. Unless it is radically different than my Mustang (two straps, two or three hose clamps) dropping the tank is cake.... as long as you take care to run it almost empty first.

Problem with dropping the 4th Gen fuel tank is the exhaust system and the rear axle assembly are both in the way. Its made even worse by a crooked fill pipe that is very difficult to maneuver out of the fender. I think it might be a bit more difficult than "a piece of cake"..... :D

Now that everyone has come up with those great ideas...... who is going to write them up?

Well...now that you point them out, I see the muffler and pipes all in the way. Funny how you only see things a certain way sometimes.

Guess I better start reading on cutting a hole... I know i will need to upgrade my fuel pump for the new engine and future mods...

Maybe its just me...but I would rather take abunch of stuff apart rather than cut a hole in my car

It seems like butchering your car, but its not that bad if you patch it up right. It's a hell of a lot easier unless you need the tank out for another reason. The only thing i ran into was that it was kind of difficult to reach the fuel line disconnects which are kind of around the corner from the hole.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/kevinblownta/hatch.jpg

Well.... since I am involved with upgrading my car anyway... at what point do 255 lph in tank pumps become not enough?

Realistically, how much power can you make before the in tank pump starts to cause a dangerous lean condition? 500 hp? 600 hp?

And I like the aluminum plate over the hole, with aluminum rivets. No rust, and just put some RTV under it to keep water out. Plus, it is fairly easy to remove if needed in the future.

FYI, my alldata manual states that to R&R the fuel pump is 4.6 hours. Hell, if you do the engine the easy way, you can have it and the k member out in less time than that.

Well.... since I am involved with upgrading my car anyway... at what point do 255 lph in tank pumps become not enough?

Realistically, how much power can you make before the in tank pump starts to cause a dangerous lean condition? 500 hp? 600 hp?

And I like the aluminum plate over the hole, with aluminum rivets. No rust, and just put some RTV under it to keep water out. Plus, it is fairly easy to remove if needed in the future.

FYI, my alldata manual states that to R&R the fuel pump is 4.6 hours. Hell, if you do the engine the easy way, you can have it and the k member out in less time than that.

According to the retailers, one good in-tank pump getting full voltage is supposedly good to ~500 hp NA, the stock lines supposedly can support ~700 hp with two in-tank pumps. Blower cars gulp more fuel than NA and, depending on how much power they're making, have more fuel demand. Some tricks to get more out of a system include boosting the voltage to the pump with electronics, getting full voltage to the pump by using larger gauge wiring direct from the alternator, or possibly boosting fuel pressure.

Actually, I just used some 8-32 button head allen screws holding my SS plate down. You dont get much thread in the sheetmetal, but it was easy to gun the tap through there and it was almost as easy as rivits. Now that I'm getting ready to upgrade it again, I'm glad it's screws.

Has anyone ever used a pre-fab door, like the one that Competition Engineering makes... its only a 6"x6" opening? Would the pump/bucket assembly fit through that?

http://www.competitionengineering.com/catalog/CategoryDisplay.asp?CatCode=10071

http://www.competitionengineering.com/catalog/images/85700_part.jpg

I suppose the cutout would be easier even if the muffler was out of the way, after looking (or trying to see) all the pipes and such. I never thought the Mustang would be called 'easy' to replace the fuel pump, but I did it in less than an hour in the driveway.

Time to fire up the plasma cutter... oh, wait... theres gas below the trunk floor. What did you use to cut the hole out with?

Somewhere in my assortment of screws and such are some 10/32 rivet nuts... the go in a hole in sheetmetal like rivets, but when you pull the 'rivet shaft' out, there are threads left inside.

[quote=Injuneer;5218390]Has anyone ever used a pre-fab door, like the one that Competition Engineering makes... its only a 6"x6" opening? Would the pump/bucket assembly fit through that?

It wouldnt be possible to get to the line disconnects and stuff and the lines stick pretty far out the sending unit - I dont think you could use it for this application, although something similar in a larger size might work.

dbrockma:

You'll end up using tin snips. There is very little clearance between the sheet metal and the top of the fuel tank.

Time to fire up the plasma cutter... oh, wait... theres gas below the trunk floor. What did you use to cut the hole out with?



I used a 4" grinder with a cutting wheel. It takes about two or three minutes to do. I should have drilled the corners first, but I forgot to.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/kevinblownta/panel1.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/kevinblownta/panel2.jpg

Another good question.... why 4 lines instead of 3? You only need one pressure and one return, and one vapor, right?

My alldata manual shows only 3 lines from the pump and 3 lines out of the cap.

On the stock system, one goes to the vent, one to the carbon canister, one for fuel and one for return.

Makes sense... I wonder why my alldata manual only shows and describes 3.

Here is a link to an older sticky that has a lot of good info on dual walbro, wiring, parts, and general fuel info.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433880&highlight=pic+of+my+dual+walbro

Some tricks to get more out of a system include ...boosting fuel pressure.

Actually no, I don't think that will help increase the hp possibility for a pump... only injectors. You can up the psi at the regulator (so less gas returns to the tank) to increase the amount of fuel that goes through an injector of a given size, but messing with the regulator does not affect the amount of gas a pump can actually push through the lines.

A pump's maximum flow/delivery is relatively unaffected by the fuel pressure regulator.

Now voltage is a different matter entirely, but you alrady covered that one (hot-wire feed from alt, better ground strap, volt booster like Casper's Electronics sells to up the alternator voltage 10% to the entire car when 70+% throttle is useful, as would be a boost-a-pump design upping voltage just to the pump).



My siggestions for a sticky: the formula for converting injector ratings for different pressures. :)

Also, maybe a mention that injector rating has nothing to do with hp/fuel demands under nitrous as it does with turbos and blowers that get their additional fueling through the injectors. Nitrous wet kits depend on pump and lines only... not injectors. ;)

Oh yeah... and the difference between EV1 and EV6 injector bodies, as well as the diff between USCAR and ummm, the "other" injector connector style.

lastly... I'd suggest a link to shoebox's site for fuel pump schematics and locations.

Actually no, I don't think that will help increase the hp possibility for a pump... only injectors. You can up the psi at the regulator (so less gas returns to the tank) to increase the amount of fuel that goes through an injector of a given size, but messing with the regulator does not affect the amount of gas a pump can actually push through the lines.

A pump's maximum flow/delivery is relatively unaffected by the fuel pressure regulator.

Now voltage is a different matter entirely, but you alrady covered that one (hot-wire feed from alt, better ground strap, volt booster like Casper's Electronics sells to up the alternator voltage 10% to the entire car when 70+% throttle is useful, as would be a boost-a-pump design upping voltage just to the pump).



My siggestions for a sticky: the formula for converting injector ratings for different pressures. :)

Also, maybe a mention that injector rating has nothing to do with hp/fuel demands under nitrous as it does with turbos and blowers that get their additional fueling through the injectors. Nitrous wet kits depend on pump and lines only... not injectors. ;)

Oh yeah... and the difference between EV1 and EV6 injector bodies, as well as the diff between USCAR and ummm, the "other" injector connector style.

lastly... I'd suggest a link to shoebox's site for fuel pump schematics and locations.

I agree with that - but thats what I meant in the first place. I should have been more specific - I was referring to the system and not the pump itself.

I agree with that - but thats what I meant in the first place. I should have been more specific - I was referring to the system and not the pump itself.

I figured as much... just thought I'd clarify for those who read this later. ;)

Actually no, I don't think that will help increase the hp possibility for a pump... only injectors. You can up the psi at the regulator (so less gas returns to the tank) to increase the amount of fuel that goes through an injector of a given size, but messing with the regulator does not affect the amount of gas a pump can actually push through the lines.

A pump's maximum flow/delivery is relatively unaffected by the fuel pressure regulator.

The system pressure has an effect on pump performance. The pump has a flow curve, that generally shows that as discharge pressure increases, flow rate decreases. As a result, increasing the system pressure can reduce the HP level the pump can support, if the flow vs pressure curve is steep enough. You may be bypassing less, to keep the pressure higher, but the pump output may fall off more the the bypass reduction saves.

True, however as you said, increased line pressure decreases fuel pump flow rates / efficiency... increasing line pressure doesn't benefit the pump in any way. If your pump is maxed out, increasing line pressure won't do squat... you need to up the voltage or go to another pump.

Here's a great comparison of pump flow rates (in lph) accross various line pressures... at various voltages. This graph/link may be a good inclusion for the sticky. :)

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm
Note: the link above is comparing Dodge Stealth / Mitsu 3000GT pumps. Due to their turbo set up, the fuel rail pressure will be 43psi + boost (so the 43psi differential between the rail pressure and the manifold pressure is kept constant... to keep the injectors accurate).

Beyond about 30psi of boost (74psi total rail pressure) you have to consider injector lock up in a NA application, though the turbo guys can get away with it since the differential pressure (which the solenoid has to open the pintal against) is still only 43psi. Upping a rail pressure to the same 74psi in a NA application is way more risky and not reccomended.

As you can see from the graphs, upping the voltage can be better than going to a bigger pump... hense the benefit of a hotwire/ground upgrade and a voltage booster.

Upping a stock LT1's rail pressure by 10psi (to 53psi) reduces the PUMP's flow rate by ~5%... though the injectors get an 11% increase in fuel flow:

FRold(NewP/OldP)^0.5 = 24(53/43)^0.5 = 26.6 psi

So yes, pressure can up fuel delivery though small injectors, but only until the pump can't keep up or the pressure gets so high the injector solenoids can't open against the rail pressure (estimates range what that max is... but ~80psi is usually tossed around as scarey :)).

At 20psi increase, the injector increase is 21% more fuel through the injectors, while max fuel flow from the pump is reduced only about 8%... so there will be a point where the most fuel can be pushed through injectors and pump... but I'd personally prefer a 43psi system with less back-pressure on the pump and the max fuel flow being controlled by the injectors... you never want your pump to limit fuel flow since the PCM doesn't control it nearly as effectively as injectors.

If your pump was at max flow and a pressure increase in the rails (say under boost or from an adj regulator) you will be starving the system, however no system should EVER be at that point or you were already in trouble... the pump should always be able to supply more fuel than the rails/injectors can deliver or else pressure will drop off and you risk lean conditions with a slight voltage drop. A 5% loss in pump flow shouldn't affect your fuel system unless you were already in trouble... a rail pressure change should never be enough to reduce pump preformance enough to kill an engine if set up right, but it does have a large effect on injector delivery rates which is why I generally assume a) injector-killing pressures will be avoided anyway, so max pump loses shouldn't exceed ~10% and b) there should be significant excess fuel flow from the pump to keep the injectors/rails well feed and pressurized... implying a small fuel flow reduction shuold be tolerated fairly well anyway.

I've also had a feeling (though no actual data) that pump life is shortened by higher rail pressures... but it's just a hunch.

Now voltage is a different matter entirely, but you alrady covered that one (hot-wire feed from alt, better ground strap, volt booster like Casper's Electronics sells to up the alternator voltage 10% to the entire car when 70+% throttle is useful, as would be a boost-a-pump design upping voltage just to the pump).

Avoid Casper's Volt Blaster like the plauge. Been chasing down a miss/rev limit at 5500rpms on my 396 build up.

Speed Secrets took The Silver Dragon out for some logging and tracked down the cause in no time flat. At 62% throttle (TPS) the alternator was putting out 13.6v as expected.... the next frame showed the miss, a 0% TPS reading, and a system voltage of 15.6v.

Even without triggering a code (DTC) for voltage out of range (16.5v is the code trigger point I belive), the high voltage played havoc with the TPS readings. Also, the sensor malfuction prevented the engine from going into PE mode (for obvious reasons... the PCM assigned TPS to 0%).

I removed the voltage blaster on their reccomendation and now the TPS can go all the way to 100% without problems.

While the voltage gain may help the ignition, fuel pump, and headlights (yes, you can tell when the Volt Blaster kicks in when driving at night)... it takes a dump on engine sensors. Why do sensors fail to register correctly at voltages that don't throw a code? I dunno... go figure.

For the sticky: Until GM releases a 0-5v TPS that can handle a 16v input...DON'T use a system voltage over 15 volts! 14.x volts seems fine. If you need more fuel pump voltage after installing a hot-wire upgrade... use a direct boost-a-pump system. Same goes for ignition... if you need more juice either close the gap a touch or get a hotter coil.

For the 93's (reprinted GM code sheets in Howell Engineering Developments manual), DTC 53 for system over voltage is 17.1 V for 2 seconds.

The PCM supplies the regulated 5 V reference. It would appear the source can not operate at the high voltages you were using. What happened to the other devices that use the PCM regulated 5 V reference, like MAP, coolant temp, etc?