GTO Judge

I have it from a couple of my best sources that we WILL see an uplevel GTO. Add to that the fact that SLP just tradmarked the Judge name, and there you have it........ Either SLP is developing a Judge, or GM and SLP are co-developing a Judge.

Within GM the Judge name is being used to decribe the uplevel GTO. But if SLP is doing something on their own, I guess it'll be called something else.

Also, according to these same sources. The C6 Z06 will get a 6.0L version of the Gen IV Aluminum block and will peg at least 450hp. While the GTO uplevel will get this same motor. It'll be more truck based.

What's the point of forming GMPD if they're going to go to SLP to have projects like this done?

No kidding, I hate SLP. GM needs to do more of this stuff itself.

Let me guess how this could play out.

-Slp comes out with a "Judge" package for the GTO. It will have several thousand dollars worth of ginger bread and be called "GTO JUDGE"

-GM says it sould not be called "GTO Judge".....but simply Pontiac Judge.

-As the Pontiac GTO gets neglected....Pontiac calls the Judge, "the ultimate Pontiac".

-The "ultimate" Judge's average out the door price goes to $45K...and those who really wanted a "GTO" don't want it anymore because GM has neglected it (to promote the JUDGE)and it is no longer desirable.

-GTO and "Judge" go on "hiatus".

And if GM really wanted to get technical on Judge heritage, the model they would use it on would be a stripped down, cheaper GTO.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Let me guess how this could play out.

-Slp comes out with a "Judge" package for the GTO. It will have several thousand dollars worth of ginger bread and be called "GTO JUDGE"

-GM says it sould not be called "GTO Judge".....but simply Pontiac Judge.

-As the Pontiac GTO gets neglected....Pontiac calls the Judge, "the ultimate Pontiac".

-The "ultimate" Judge's average out the door price goes to $45K...and those who really wanted a "GTO" don't want it anymore because GM has neglected it (to promote the JUDGE)and it is no longer desirable.

-GTO and "Judge" go on "hiatus".

Why not? This great marketing plan worked for Camaro. :rolleyes:

Personally I think that would be pretty bad *ss, even though I don't think it would sell. How many people in the market for a 45K$ car would go for something like an up-scale GTO? I for one would rather just spend 5K more and get the Corvette, and most other people would just get an SUV.

...that SLP is doing something on thier own.......with Pontiac using the GXP moniker I'd guess that Pontiac will do a GTOXP...EIEIO or something like that, and not use the Judge moniker...leaving for SLP's badge / hood and floormat treatment.;)

i just wish they would send the thing here.:mad:

Originally posted by Meccadeth
Personally I think that would be pretty bad *ss, even though I don't think it would sell. How many people in the market for a 45K$ car would go for something like an up-scale GTO? I for one would rather just spend 5K more and get the Corvette, and most other people would just get an SUV.

Look how many people paid $35,000+ for a $25,000 Z28 just to get a special hood, and maybe $2,000 worth of performance parts and badges that only marginally increased performance or handling.

What was that P.T. Barnum once said?

Originally posted by guionM
Look how many people paid $35,000+ for a $25,000 Z28 just to get a special hood, and maybe $2,000 worth of performance parts and badges that only marginally increased performance or handling.

What was that P.T. Barnum once said?

But $35K is in a different ballpark than $45K. Working class and lower-middle class people can afford $35K, this is where I think the GTO should be targetted. Upper-middle class people are looking for more style when in the market for a sports car. So if they look at a new Corvette next to an up-scale GTO, they would choose the Vette... unless their enthusiasts, in which case GM would sell Judges in the hundreds...
GTO Judge for $35K on the other hand...:D

Originally posted by Meccadeth
Upper-middle class people are looking for more style when in the market for a sports car. So if they look at a new Corvette next to an up-scale GTO, they would choose the Vette...

It's never that cut & dry. Vette & GTO seem to me to be in completely different markets. It's hardly a "this OR that" choice. I can see someone wanting to own both, for very different reasons.

Judge - This is a great name for a car sub-model. I personally like its implied authority. The problem arises when people get curious and try to research where the name came from. Will anyone today really care about that old show? I doubt it.

Pete McCarthy verfied NO Judge for 04. Maybe 05, but I still *really* doubt it. SLP aftermarket, maybe. That doesn't count as far as I'm concerned.

GT

Not again, not SLP again. :doh: GM, lets not have this overpriced, not worth the cost, SS BS again. You can't add the extra power and change the appearance yourselves?? Come on now, really.

Originally posted by Doug Harden, Pres CICC
...that SLP is doing something on thier own.......with Pontiac using the GXP moniker I'd guess that Pontiac will do a GTOXP...EIEIO or something like that, and not use the Judge moniker...leaving for SLP's badge / hood and floormat treatment.;)

And hopefully Pontiac can come up with something better than this "XP" moniker--GTO GXP or GTOXP doesn't sound good to me. Sounds like a Microsoft product :mad:, not a classic muscle car reborn. There have got to be some hardcore GTO enthusiasts on here that can come up with something more relevant than XP (or Judge if that is infact going to SLP) to signify a special, high performance model...something with the same type of flare as Z06.

They're only bringing 18,000 of them over. Just let GMPD put LS6 heads on them all, say 375 hp, and call it a day. I agree with jrp4uc, let the damn division get some recoginition and let SLP play with damn Ford trucks.

I have to agree that this kinda negates the purpose of having GMPD around. I'm sure that when SLP comes out with their GTO package it will have the HSV boys in Oz laughing. But then again who knows what SLP might do. They did have an awesome real performance option in the 92 Firehawk. Maybe they can do something a little more involved like they did on that car with the new GTO. Hood, floor mat, badges, and key fob aren't going to cut it.

I think people would pay $45K for a 7.0L LS1 GTO or even a 440HP 6.3L LS1

Maybe they (GMPD) should revive the Bobcat name. from the glory days of Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac.
Don't know who owns the rights to the name? but it is relavent.
They could just call it the Bobcat GTO:cool:

You know guys, I only used that $45K number to make a point.

I pulled it out of thin air.........

Originally posted by jrp4uc
And hopefully Pontiac can come up with something better than this "XP" moniker--GTO GXP or GTOXP doesn't sound good to me. Sounds like a Microsoft product :mad:, not a classic muscle car reborn. There have got to be some hardcore GTO enthusiasts on here that can come up with something more relevant than XP (or Judge if that is infact going to SLP) to signify a special, high performance model...something with the same type of flare as Z06.

Much like Z/28 for Camaro.......GTO says it all.

Anything more is just superfluous.

Maybee SLP will just offer a "judge" package for any GTO's that come here..kinda like the Grand Prix performance package..it would save GM some $$$ if SLP designed a JUDGE package and who knows it might be worth 20 +HP??? all SLP or LS1 bolt on mods..:confused: who knows..

Does anyone really think that an SLP Judge will make the 18,000 GTOs per year more desirable? Because I don't.

First lets have a quick Judge history lesson.

The Judge was a LOW END GTO, designed to compete price wise with the lower cost and popular Road Runner. It was originally to be called T37...but DeLorean decided to tap into the prevalent lingo from the Laugh In Show.

Judge comes from the term....."Here come da Judge" .

The Judge DID NOT have any special performance options. Yes Virginia.....it was no faster than any other GOAT...it was just decontented and supposed to be cheaper than a regular GTO. Most people who bought them however, optioned them heavily, so there really wasn't much of a price advantage.

Do we really need SLP to pimp out a GTO....isn't just having a GTO enough.

"here come da judge, here come da judge" good show
if slp does anything to the gto it better be worth it no crap a$$ 20 horse
I vote for GTO HSV

So...if we want a real GTO Judge, one that is true to it's heritage....how about this.


Cloth seats,(maybe even bench seat), steel wheels (with NO trim rings of course), rubber floor mats, etc., etc.

Sticker price= $24,000.

Seeing how the car will debue on the big screen in the second part of that movie "XXX", maybe they will call it the GTO XXX?:D

I dunno, sounds corny, but I would like that better then GTOXP, GTXP, or whatever.

BTW, the original Judge did come with a pretty funky spoiler, wasn't that a special performance option?:confused:

Originally posted by 95 Z-28 LT1

BTW, the original Judge did come with a pretty funky spoiler, wasn't that a special performance option?:confused:

A funky spoiler and some pretty funky decals too.

Originally posted by Chuck!
They're only bringing 18,000 of them over. Just let GMPD put LS6 heads on them all, say 375 hp, and call it a day. I agree with jrp4uc, let the damn division get some recoginition and let SLP play with damn Ford trucks. Werd, Chuck:)

The GTO will be like the Z28, the Judge will be like the SS: mostly looks, a few suspension upgrades NO BIG POWER CHANGE. The Judge will devalue the GTO, like the SS did the Z28 as WERM pointed out in an older thread.

Originally posted by Z284ever
Does anyone really think that an SLP Judge will make the 18,000 GTOs per year more desirable? Because I don't.

First lets have a quick Judge history lesson.

The Judge was a LOW END GTO, designed to compete price wise with the lower cost and popular Road Runner. It was originally to be called T37...but DeLorean decided to tap into the prevalent lingo from the Laugh In Show.

Judge comes from the term....."Here come da Judge" .

The Judge DID NOT have any special performance options. Yes Virginia.....it was no faster than any other GOAT...it was just decontented and supposed to be cheaper than a regular GTO. Most people who bought them however, optioned them heavily, so there really wasn't much of a price advantage.

Do we really need SLP to pimp out a GTO....isn't just having a GTO enough.

You have that history down pat! :bow:

You also point out a major flaw in John Delorean & his Pontiac guys. They not only had a uncontrollable tendancy of stuffing racing engines in "production line" cars to be evaluated by the press, they also had no quams about stealing names (and expressions) without paying for them.

A few weeks ago I came across an article about how he tried to steal the Trans Am name for a performance Firebird, but the series reps weren't going to go for that, and forced him to pay $5 for every car sold with that name (as it's done for over 30 years :eek: ). Other names stolen: LeMans, Grand Prix, GTO, and one expression...... the Judge! At least Plymouth paid for the rights to "Road Runner".

They may have been a pretty unsavory bunch running Pontiac, but no one else would have managed to con a GTO out of GM back then either.

Originally posted by guionM
You have that history down pat! :bow:

You also point out a major flaw in John Delorean & his Pontiac guys. They not only had a uncontrollable tendancy of stuffing racing engines in "production line" cars to be evaluated by the press, they also had no quams about stealing names (and expressions) without paying for them.

A few weeks ago I came across an article about how he tried to steal the Trans Am name for a performance Firebird, but the series reps weren't going to go for that, and forced him to pay $5 for every car sold with that name (as it's done for over 30 years :eek: ). Other names stolen: LeMans, Grand Prix, GTO, and one expression...... the Judge! At least Plymouth paid for the rights to "Road Runner".

They may have been a pretty unsavory bunch running Pontiac, but no one else would have managed to con a GTO out of GM back then either.

One thing about Delorean though, he never agonized about consumer clinics, never ran anything through committees, and rarely ran anything by his bosses.....if it felt right, he just went for it!

We could use a guy like him!

guionM, just thought I would ad this the Trans Am was almost changed into T/A in 82. There were a few pics of a preproduction car from back in 80 or 81 that show the T/A decals on the front quarter. I think that pontiac was trying to get out of paying those royalties.:D but instead they went with the recognized name.

Originally posted by 91_z28_4me
guionM, just thought I would ad this the Trans Am was almost changed into T/A in 82. There were a few pics of a preproduction car from back in 80 or 81 that show the T/A decals on the front quarter. I think that pontiac was trying to get out of paying those royalties.:D but instead they went with the recognized name.

Correct on all counts! :D