honing?

torque plate honing, line honing, how many types are there, i posted thing before but no one really told me, i know that they use the clayish stuff to do it though

ttt

ttt

ttt

Honing: some thoughts.

Cylinder bore honing is the most critical honing operation on an engine. The process is used to generate the final bore diameter (size), as well as roundness and straightness. It is done after boring to within maybe .005 of final size.

Torque plates, or honing plates, bolted or studded to the block with a head gasket are used to simulate the head loads and distortion of the bores when the engine is assembled. Honing with the torque plates makes the holes round in their assembled state, even though they may not be round when the block doesn't have heads on it.

The other critical thing cylinder bore honing accomplishes is to establish the surface finish and cross-hatch pattern which makes for the best piston ring seal. What this should be depends a lot on the rings used, and the engine parameters in general. IMO, asking the ring manufacturer for recommendations is the way to go. Total Seal gives exact procedures including stone part numbers, grits, stroke speed, hone speed and number of strokes with each stone.

"Line honing" or align honing is used on the block main bearing bores (with bearings removed, of course) to get them back in line. Usually, a few .001's of a inch are removed from the main bearing caps, which makes the bearing bores small in the vertical dimension. All five (in a modern V8) are then honed simultaneously with a long hone mandrel to get them on the same axis or in line. The newly aligned bearing bores are then used to locate the block for further machining operations.

Connecting rod honing is used to rebuild con rods or to fit floating pins in the small end. If the caps have machined faces, they can have a few .001's removed (like the main caps) and then honed to original size. If new "fractured" caps are used (LS1, etc) you can't do this. The small ends may have bronze bushings for floating pins. The bushings are honed for the correct fit with the pins. This is usually the most precise sizing in the engine, because the clearances are only a few .0001's (ten-thousandths) of an inch.

Valve guides may be honed when new ones are installed.

Lifter bore bushings, if used, may be honed.

I suppose you could align hone the cam bores, but I think that's not often done. There's not the kind of loading that distorts them and they are in a fairly strong area of the block.

All of these honing operations use abrasive stones which are forced outward under pressure toward the surface being honed. There are also shoes, usually opposite the stones which support the load. Honing can generate a straight, round hole if it is done correctly.

The "bottle brushes" or flex hones with many abrasive balls on the end of each spoke can be used to generate a surface finish. The won't remove much stock, and they won't make the hole round and straight. They will also help deburr a bore with cross holes like a lifter bore.

There's also "extrude honing", which uses 'the clayish stuff' with imbedded abrasive grains forced through something like a manifold under high pressure. The abrasive removes the high spots, and if done aggressively, some metal all around the hole. It selectively removes the biggest restrictions, so it's a nice finish porting tool. The process is unlike all the other honing processes above. I think "abrasive extrusion machining" might be a better term, but that doesn't have the appeal of "Extrude Honing".

Probably more than you wanted to know SevenSeven.

thanks, i was just wanting to learn all i could about it, thats exactly what i wanted to know, thanks again

Great write up oldSStroker! Have you seen the new rod bearing for the "cracked " rods, they offer a larger bearing od.

Theres also hot-honing -- heating the block up to & maintaining operating temp throughout the duration of the honing process. :)

Originally posted by SkarodoM
Theres also hot-honing -- heating the block up to & maintaining operating temp throughout the duration of the honing process. :)

cool

Originally posted by SkarodoM
Theres also hot-honing -- heating the block up to & maintaining operating temp throughout the duration of the honing process. :)

I'm not sold on hot-honing yet. While it may be true that you can make the bore more like what it is when it's running, I am concerned that you can't get as accurate a piston fit as with room-temp honing.

At 180*F, the bore grows about .0025 from room temp. What temp measuring tools do you use? If you use contact gages like a dial bore gage, you need it and it's master ring to be at honing temp. That's tough on the operator. Not many folks have non-contact air probe bore gages which might be more accurate here.

I wouldn't put it past Cup engine shops to do this, however.

I've thought that torque plates really don't replicate the exact bore distortion either, because they are usually solid steel plates with 4 inch+ holes through them, and most heads are aluminum castings full of holes.

IMO, maybe we're picking nits.

My $.02

Originally posted by drop top steve
Great write up oldSStroker! Have you seen the new rod bearing for the "cracked " rods, they offer a larger bearing od.

I forgot about those. Thanks for the reminder.

"Oh, by the way, Clevite, I need .25 mm under ID and .1 mm over OD rod bearings, please. Or was it the other way around?"

When hot honing, you'll generally have 220 deg coolant at 25 psi flowing through the block, as well as keeping your honing oil at 200 degrees. One of the problems the engine builder (Billy The Kid, up in Torrington, CT, builds lots of Busch North & Modified engines...) mentioned was the bore gauge heating up from the hot block, and growing. They've got a growth correction factor they'll use to convert to the cold bore temperature. All 'cup teams do this as from the few nascar folks I've spoken to, and many of the Busch series guys have blocks hot honed as well. I think at that point, what's a $300 hone on a $40k engine? Circle Track or Stock Car Racing had a great article about it about a year ago.

Andris, with a hot honed Dart Little M block...

Somehow, this thread managed to salvage its place on Advanced Tech, when the replies digressed into some of the newer technology.... otherwise, it seems to me that these "basic" questions like "what is........" should be researched in some basic engine building books, rather than expecting people to prepare a "Honing 101" class and serve it up on a platter.....

Just an observation. Any other thoughts - pro or con?

Fred

Originally posted by Z28tt
When hot honing, you'll generally have 220 deg coolant at 25 psi flowing through the block, as well as keeping your honing oil at 200 degrees. One of the problems the engine builder (Billy The Kid, up in Torrington, CT, builds lots of Busch North & Modified engines...) mentioned was the bore gauge heating up from the hot block, and growing. They've got a growth correction factor they'll use to convert to the cold bore temperature. All 'cup teams do this as from the few nascar folks I've spoken to, and many of the Busch series guys have blocks hot honed as well. I think at that point, what's a $300 hone on a $40k engine? Circle Track or Stock Car Racing had a great article about it about a year ago.

Andris, with a hot honed Dart Little M block...

Thanks for the info.

The growth correction factor should be about 6 millionths of an inch per inch of bore diameter per degree F. For a Cup engine, that's almost .004.

Honing cast iron is not a clean job anyway, but now it's a hot, dirty job.

I hope they pay those block guys well. $300 sounds cheap to me.

Originally posted by Injuneer
Somehow, this thread managed to salvage its place on Advanced Tech, when the replies digressed into some of the newer technology.... otherwise, it seems to me that these "basic" questions like "what is........" should be researched in some basic engine building books, rather than expecting people to prepare a "Honing 101" class and serve it up on a platter.....

Just an observation. Any other thoughts - pro or con?

Fred

I agree about the basic questions, Fred. I was surprised the thread hadn't been moved before I first posted.

A couple of points:

If one doesn't know the answer, there's no such thing as a stupid (or too basic) question. The questioner might not know where to look, so he visits a forum. Maybe not the exactly correct forum, but we've both seen threads like this take a neat turn.

I've gotten some new information from it, and maybe some Advanced Tech posters or lurkers have also.

I've also seen much mis-informaton posted on less technical forums. Maybe folks come here for good, current, info. I do.

The great thing about forums (and one of the biggest problems with being a moderator, I'll bet) is that some threads develop a life of their own. That's what makes a given forum interesting, at least to me. I get tired of "what LCA should I choose for next week's cam" threads.

I think you do a good job of moving threads.

My $.02


Jon

I can't go into much (detail wise) of our practice as far as honing goes. What I can say is this....
Yes there is a benefit to boring/honing with at temp/coolant flowing through the cylinder block. To do this right, you need a special "dummy" cylinder head in place of the conventional torque plate. Then the block is bored and honed, preferably diamond honed/plateau finished, #280 to #600 then finish brushed to a finish of RA 10 or better. With this practice we've achieved bore concentricty in the .0001-.0003 range, bore straightness relative to the deck, .0002-.0004.
Boring the block at temperature is simply a matter of expansion, much of which can be computer simulated. Ultimately, getting the correct bore diameter at room temp (77ºF) is a matter of R&D. Once you have the process down for a particular casting, it's just a matter of duplication.

The other important issue is in increasing the RKV (valley depth) value as this plays a vital role in oil retention. On our competition engines, we use a process known as laser structuring. Basically what happens in LS is the laser burns a pattern into the top half of the cylinder bore. The "cuts" are approximately 50 microns deep and 40 microns wide. The results of which we've seen upwards of a 20% decrease in oil consumption and approximately 30% longer ring life. A big concern for high output endurance applications.

Take care,
Chuck Riddeck
Progressive Race Engine Development

Originally posted by Mr. Horsepower
I can't go into much (detail wise) of our practice as far as honing goes. What I can say is this....
Yes there is a benefit to boring/honing with at temp/coolant flowing through the cylinder block. To do this right, you need a special "dummy" cylinder head in place of the conventional torque plate. Then the block is bored and honed, preferably diamond honed/plateau finished, #280 to #600 then finish brushed to a finish of RA 10 or better. With this practice we've achieved bore concentricty in the .0001-.0003 range, bore straightness relative to the deck, .0002-.0004.
Boring the block at temperature is simply a matter of expansion, much of which can be computer simulated. Ultimately, getting the correct bore diameter at room temp (77ºF) is a matter of R&D. Once you have the process down for a particular casting, it's just a matter of duplication.

The other important issue is in increasing the RKV (valley depth) value as this plays a vital role in oil retention. On our competition engines, we use a process known as laser structuring. Basically what happens in LS is the laser burns a pattern into the top half of the cylinder bore. The "cuts" are approximately 50 microns deep and 40 microns wide. The results of which we've seen upwards of a 20% decrease in oil consumption and approximately 30% longer ring life. A big concern for high output endurance applications.

Take care,
Chuck Riddeck
Progressive Race Engine Development

Thanks for the info, Chuck. The LS is new to me, but my first reaction was "Of course!" We have parts selectively hardened with a laser scanner, so why not cut with it. I particularly like that you can select the area of the bore to "groove".

Being less sophisticated we use honing stones and shoot for Ra of 11-14 and Rz in the 150-200 range with the rings we use. After your LS burn, have you taken an Rz reading? I'd love to know how it compares.

Your bore squareness-to-deck is most impressive. Using a CMM?

(Maybe Fred will leave this thread here.)

Thanks again,

Jon

(Maybe Fred will leave this thread here.)

Thanks to your (and Chuck's) responses, this is finally getting interesting. My point is not about the responses.... my point is that a very basic question.... and to me this seemed like a relatively basic question.... isn't something that belongs here. Actually it doesn't belong anywhere.

My recommendation is to read a book if you need the basics...... then come here on the part you don't understand or need more details on. I think there is a little of the same content in the question about "heads making compression"..... which seemed to indicate that the person who asked the question needed a quick intro to the basics.... i.e. what it the equation for static compression ratio?

It all kind of subjective, but I always like to see someone do a little work on their own up front...... :D.

Originally posted by Injuneer
Thanks to your (and Chuck's) responses, this is finally getting interesting. My point is not about the responses.... my point is that a very basic question.... and to me this seemed like a relatively basic question.... isn't something that belongs here. Actually it doesn't belong anywhere.

My recommendation is to read a book if you need the basics...... then come here on the part you don't understand or need more details on. I think there is a little of the same content in the question about "heads making compression"..... which seemed to indicate that the person who asked the question needed a quick intro to the basics.... i.e. what it the equation for static compression ratio?

It all kind of subjective, but I always like to see someone do a little work on their own up front...... :D.

i do admitt that i have never known about the torque plates and the laser structuring honing, are there any books that you can recomend (library won't let me check out the big chiltons books not that they would have this any way)

Very interesting!
Yeah, boring and honing is basic... but the way this has turned I can see it being a little more "advanced" than I originally thought. Seems to be quite a bit of debate between engine builders on the subject too.
Jon, Chuck, thanks for your time.

-Mindgame

Talk about having a basic problem turn up some good info.

If anyone has not figured it out yet Old Stroker and I are related. It's a good thing because we get to bounce ideascoming from different areas off each other. Right now learning what the finish is on the bores chuck is talking about is interesting. I am really more interested in power output, but something like this will allow power output to be higher for a longer period of time. If a engine eats more oil oh well, it it lives a long time and makes power that is a trade off I will take anyday!

Thanks for the info,

Bret

BTW.... watch the last NASCAR race of the year, we get a few months of boredome off so take advantage of it.

The only time I thought honing was a "basic" operation was when I knew nothing about it. honing is definately a "Advanced Tech" topic. See above. And one guy even said I can't go into detail??? One can only imagine what secrets and not being told.

Here's a fairly good read on cylinder block honing. It's a .pdf file, and uses metric terms, but the info is good.

http://www.msi-motor-service.de/download/broschueren/honen_en.pdf

Here's one on laser structuring:

http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/tooling/archives/0102/0102laser.asp

all of a sudden i really like honing

Originally posted by ToddR
The only time I thought honing was a "basic" operation was when I knew nothing about it. honing is definately a "Advanced Tech" topic. See above. And one guy even said I can't go into detail??? One can only imagine what secrets and not being told.

Only time I thought honing was a "basic" operation was when I didn't have to do it myself.;)

On the subject of "secrets", is there really any such thing with the internet, lol. I mean, up til yesterday, I'd never even heard of what Chuck was referring to as "laser structuring"... and there it is, an article on the subject.
Do you guys pray, thanking some higher power for ARPANET, TCP/IP and HTML? Well ya should damnit!:D

-Mindgame

Originally posted by Mindgame
Only time I thought honing was a "basic" operation was when I didn't have to do it myself.;)

On the subject of "secrets", is there really any such thing with the internet, lol. I mean, up til yesterday, I'd never even heard of what Chuck was referring to as "laser structuring"... and there it is, an article on the subject.
Do you guys pray, thanking some higher power for ARPANET, TCP/IP and HTML? Well ya should damnit!:D

-Mindgame

does the arpanet still exist (i thought it was the 1st internet)

Originally posted by number77
does the arpanet still exist (i thought it was the 1st internet)

Sorry to get off on a tangent from the original subject but....

The US Department of Defense's Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA, later named DARPA) came into being during the early 60's. The WAN developed by ARPA was called the ARPANET. It was the backbone infrastructure of the internet but not anymore. The current backbone infrastructure carries a volume of well over 45 megabits per second, about 1000 times the bandwidth of the grandfather, ARPANET.
Contrary to what Mr. Gore says, the WWW was invented by CERN, a european physics labarotory.... the same guys who brought you the hypertext markup language.:)

Enough of that crap, let's talk honing!

-Mindgame

Originally posted by OldSStroker
Here's a fairly good read on cylinder block honing. It's a .pdf file, and uses metric terms, but the info is good.

http://www.msi-motor-service.de/download/broschueren/honen_en.pdf

Here's one on laser structuring:

http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/tooling/archives/0102/0102laser.asp

Good stuff!

Thanks!

Originally posted by Soma07
Good stuff!

Thanks!

Ditto from here in the Geat White North (it's frakin' snowing out there!!).

I passed "Honing 101" years ago, but never went any further. Back then, it was considered tres chic to use a torque plate! Now I learn about this hot honing, laser honing, etc. My question is: what is the magnitude of the gains from these sophisticated techniques? Is it in the realm of a few hp (as I suspect), which would make it useful for NASCAR or other pro racing decided by inches, or is it on the order of magnitude that folks like us who are into amatuer competition/fast street driving might consider it?

It's interesting in any case.

Rich Krause

I would guess that we can get more use from knowing a good surface finish that works well with certain rings more than anything. Hot honeing is something Smokey a long time ago, if you can do it well I'm sure that it makes the cylinder closer to round at operating temps which has to help seal. The laser etching is a really good durability mod but for most of us doing it practially is not going to happen.

Either way it's cool to see that stuff.

Bret

In the second linked article (http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/...2/0102laser.asp) it was mentioned that:
"Its potential for engines has not gone unnoticed by the Big Three automakers who are integrating the process into their transfer machining lines in the U.S. and Europe. Initially they have targeted diesel engines because of the ability of laser honing to dramatically reduce emissions."
Does anyone know to what extent that this technology is being used (i.e. what model engines other than diesel...etc.)?
Also, specificly, why the top half of the cylinder walls only?...

They laser structure the part of the cylinder that the rings seat against. No reason to structure the bottom part, where the piston skirt just slides, IMHO.

A.

On high end racing engines, all possible accessories are bolted to the block while honing, also. Basically it just simulates the same principle as using a torque plate, but to an extreme factor.

Originally posted by CAJUN-Z
In the second linked article (http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/...2/0102laser.asp) it was mentioned that:
"Its potential for engines has not gone unnoticed by the Big Three automakers who are integrating the process into their transfer machining lines in the U.S. and Europe. Initially they have targeted diesel engines because of the ability of laser honing to dramatically reduce emissions."
Does anyone know to what extent that this technology is being used (i.e. what model engines other than diesel...etc.)?
Also, specificly, why the top half of the cylinder walls only?...

To my knowledge, no gas engines yet. The diesel guys have some tough emission standards coming up, and they are looking at everything. The folks who make cat cons are using that technology but in a different way for diesels.

My guess would be we'd see it on the highest tech, highest rpm gas engines first. Maybe the BMW M-3 engine, but I've not heard.

Z28tt 's right on the top half.

Originally posted by CAJUN-Z
In the second linked article (http://www.manufacturingcenter.com/...2/0102laser.asp) it was mentioned that:
"Its potential for engines has not gone unnoticed by the Big Three automakers who are integrating the process into their transfer machining lines in the U.S. and Europe. Initially they have targeted diesel engines because of the ability of laser honing to dramatically reduce emissions."
Does anyone know to what extent that this technology is being used (i.e. what model engines other than diesel...etc.)?
Also, specificly, why the top half of the cylinder walls only?...

as far as the gas engines, i would say possibly lemans and open wheel cars might be using it, if you used it on all the parts (gears, etc.) it would definitely reduce the hp loss at the back wheels, the only reason i can guess they would only use it on the cylinder walls would be because the rings have to seal, and the better fit, the better seal