sb2.2 heads

I know some of you are running these heads and would like to know what kinnda ET gains you had going from a 23* head to the sb2s. Also what were your flow #s. Im in the process of building a 434 sb2.2

From a 23º head? :eek:

Considering all the things you HAVE to change for this swap makes for one difficult comparison. I will go out on a limb and say that a 500fwhp 383 for instance, using 23º heads might see 15-20hp "swapping" to an 18/15º head and another 15hp and some tq by going to the SB2.2 with all of it's accompanying parts. The SB2.2 could easily be worth 50hp over a good 23º head. Then again, there are some GREAT 23º heads out there but there's alot more going on here than just airflow.

FWIW, the set on my new motor peaked at 447 cfm.

-Mindgame

FWIW, the set on my new motor peaked at 447 cfm.

:eek:

FWIW, the set on my new motor peaked at 447 cfm.
-----------------------------------------------------------

:D :bow:

Wow, didnt you just get done building a motor for your car?.

Me?

I recently built a 457 ci small block with the sb2.2's on top and a few tricks. :death:

-Mindgame

When are we going to get a rundown of that?

447cfm is healthy sounds like a MBE or CFE port.... a buddy of mine is REALLY leary of that MBE stuff.

Bret

Me?

I recently built a 457 ci small block with the sb2.2's on top and a few tricks. :death:

-Mindgame

Yea, sorry I wasnt specific. But when i saw that I was like wow, this man goes through more badazz motors. All I want is one good one.:)

FWIW, the set on my new motor peaked at 447 cfm.

-Mindgame
What did that motor make? Seems like I have read it somewhere, but I forget!:D

What did that motor make? Seems like I have read it somewhere, but I forget!:D
770 or somthing like that if i recall i seen it somewhere myself.. Mindgame has some nice toy's.. :bow:

770 or somthing like that if i recall i seen it somewhere myself.. Mindgame has some nice toy's.. :bow:

All motor I think it was.:)

I would think a 457 with sb2.2s would make alot more than 770 hp

I would think a 457 with sb2.2s would make alot more than 770 hp

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure MG's SB2.2 is on pump gas.

Ryan

Oh course it is, and I'm betting it's a driver too.

And when it becomes a "slow race car" he yanks it and builds something faster. I think that about sums it up?.

Exactly!

10.9,

You're absolutely right, a 457 ci sb2.2 headed race car should make 1000+ hp NA with cubic dollars, 16.0+ compression and the right parts. But... as the other guys here have so kindly pointed out (I think they all know me pretty well now ;) )..... this isn't a RACE car, it's a driver.

As a matter of fact I've taken a whole new direction with the car. The setup will be much more "Road Racer" than "Drag Racer" this go round. Just something different for me... not that I plan on being the next Silver State winner or anything but that doesn't mean I won't try it at least once before I die. :)

Frankly, like alot of you guys, I just like these 4th gens. Kinda like the Mako sharks of the car world. Don't see myself getting rid of this one any time soon.

-Mindgame

Thanks Mindgame. Just thought those HP #s were kinnda week for those flow #s and Cubic inches.. Im in the precess of building an sb2.2 Race Motor. It will be a 4.165 bore with a 4" crank ( 436ci) with 15.4 CR. Heads are NASCAR "Take Off Heads" that only flow 380 cfm @ .600

Yeah, in race trim the thing should fly.

Just to keep things in perspective here, the cam in the new beast is hardly beastly at all with just 256º @.050. :lol:

She'd sing a whole other octave with a bigger stick, but I'm content....... for now. ;)

-Mindgame

MG, those are some killer numbers. Your combo will make a killer street package. I wish I could run mine on pump gas and make that much. Of course that's the difference 60+cfm makes.

10.90 streetcar:

To give you an idea, mine flow 380cfm also and are on a 396ci 4.030" bore motor with a 270/280 .710 lift sr with 13.5-1 and a very short restrictor plate style intake and it's made 740 at the crank so far.

Heres the Specs on my cam. 280/296 .740/.716 on a 112 LSA.
Why the very short restrictor plate style intake. Also I would think that small bore is also hurting you some as well.

We needed it for hood clearance and got a good deal on it. We didn't feel like shelling out money for a larger cowl hood that will get us tickets plus We've got some coin in custom paint and it's a nitrous motor so I just figured I'd put bigger pills in it ;)

Your larger cam, bigger bore, higher compresion plus better intake should have you in the high 700's low 800's I would think. What do the rest of you guys think?

I would hope so!

Bret

Yeah, in race trim the thing should fly.

Just to keep things in perspective here, the cam in the new beast is hardly beastly at all with just 256º @.050. :lol:

She'd sing a whole other octave with a bigger stick, but I'm content....... for now. ;)

-Mindgame

So your saying that you shoved a 457ci smallblock in a 4th gen with a stock hood?!?

Got pics?

I would think my combo should make over 800

700-800 should be cake for a race motor!

I'd personally tear it apart and try again if it made less than 900. While I agree that the sb2.2 is a the best small block head out there, I also believe you need two carbs to really make big hp. When we start going to multiple carbs, my thoughts shift to a splayed valve head designed with that in mind. Of course a sheetmetal intake is a must.

-Mindgame

BTW Rob,

The engine is the same external dimensions as the LT1.


Well, it's a little beefier and has a .300 taller deck but everything fits just like "stock".

-MG

Too bad there are no awesome splayed valve GM heads... I hear that the ROX head is supposed to be double throw down though.

Bret,

The old 504 made 1000+ with the old GM splayed valvers. If you go to alcohol then you can run the Alan Johnson splayed head. Works ok for Rick Moroso. :)

-Mindgame

I've just had a few talented head porters not like those heads AT ALL... hell I couldn't tell you if they were the cats ass or not.... they just require a ton more work than something like a SB2.2, but then again when those didn't exsist the splayed valve was the top dog.

I still remember the sounds of those Intrepid GTP cars back in the day with 365 and 396 splayed valve aluminum small blocks.

Bret

BTW Rob,

The engine is the same external dimensions as the LT1.


Well, it's a little beefier and has a .300 taller deck but everything fits just like "stock".

-MG

MG: You don't have to go into detail, but can you tell us what kind of TB you are running?

SB2.2 = :thumb:. Keeping the stock hood = :bow:.

Ryan

Ryan,

I wish I could go into detail about the manifold but the magic isn't really something you can see without taking the thing off and looking inside it. Yes, CFE did the intake and I'm using two 90mm throttle bodies on this one. Both are forward facing.

I used up just about every inch of space under the hood. All the space that would have been occupied by a strut tower brace is now plenum volume and aluminum. :)

-Mindgame

Is there one or two plenums?

Dos plenums chief. :)

http://community.webshots.com/photo/171753897/174697245QHeiJu

These are the splayed heads I had in mind. They'd probably be my first choice if I were playing that game... that or maybe the Little Chief. For a single carb motor... I'd say sb2.2 all the way.

-Mindgame

Yeah... the Little Cheifs are nice. But $10K+ for a set of heads ready to run without the rest of the parts gets steep!

I like limits on things like parts... something more realistic to play with then.

I guess we'll have to imagine what this beast looks like. hint hint;)

MG: Twin 90mm TBs. Nice :eek:.

I'm using two 90mm throttle bodies on this one. Both are forward facing.


Awesome, just a key bit of info missing from this thread...http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412980&page=2

Yeah... the Little Cheifs are nice. But $10K+ for a set of heads ready to run without the rest of the parts gets steep!

I like limits on things like parts... something more realistic to play with then.

There's cheap racing, there's expensive racing, and there's damned little in between. ;)

I'd like to see limits too Bret but it's a crazy world. It's never cheap of you want to win cause everyone's cheating to some extent.

MEAN,

I'm writing a book with pictures and a pop-out. Will tell you how to build your own sb2.2 "small" block car for somewhere between $40-80k. The book of course is much cheaper at just $24.99 + shipping.

Don't feel bad though, I was looking at an older Playboy the other day and wondered... "How much would it cost to make a duplicate of Jenny McCarthy?". Now that I'd buy! :D

-Mindgame

There's cheap racing, there's expensive racing, and there's damned little in between. ;)

I'd like to see limits too Bret but it's a crazy world. It's never cheap of you want to win cause everyone's cheating to some extent.

MEAN,

I'm writing a book with pictures and a pop-out. Will tell you how to build your own sb2.2 "small" block car for somewhere between $40-80k. The book of course is much cheaper at just $24.99 + shipping.

Don't feel bad though, I was looking at an older Playboy the other day and wondered... "How much would it cost to make a duplicate of Jenny McCarthy?". Now that I'd buy! :D

-Mindgame


NEXT upgrade for mine will be SB2 heads with a sheet metal and 2 4 hole air valves but it's got to run what I brung for now. That's way to much for now-- Got to finish the car first--- and this @#$%^&* 4" exhaust.

Maybe 300 hoss of hose wil get it done for now. That should be in the 900-1000FWHP range.

Yep MG got toy's!!!!!!

Don't feel bad though, I was looking at an older Playboy the other day and wondered... "How much would it cost to make a duplicate of Jenny McCarthy?". Now that I'd buy! :D

-Mindgame


lol

Yeah, I can understand that.

Bret

Don't feel bad though, I was looking at an older Playboy the other day and wondered... "How much would it cost to make a duplicate of Jenny McCarthy?". Now that I'd buy! :D

-Mindgame

Ooohhh, i am right there with ya!! However I am pretty poor right now, so if ya figure out how to do it...I'll just take your sloppy seconds MG..

I'm writing a book with pictures and a pop-out. Will tell you how to build your own sb2.2 "small" block car for somewhere between $40-80k. The book of course is much cheaper at just $24.99 + shipping.


Cool, just put a couple of dinosaurs in it so I can read it with the kids :lol:

Anyone with the sb2. stuff have to have block work done?I very good head porter was telling me that the block had 2 be decked a way to make the heads fit just right.

Well, just so you guys know I have been inundated with e-mails about this engine. I wouldn't mind so much if the questions were legitimate but most of it just amounts to a somewhat clever way of calling me a liar. Instead of replying to e-mail I'll go ahead and cover some of it here for those of you who are serious about building a street engine with the 2.2 cylinder head.

I'll rephrase the questions I received in hopes of removing the sarcasm....

"How did you get the compression ratio down?"

As a raw casting the heads come to you at 28cc. From there who knows where they can go. I've seen combustion chambers as large as 56cc for these heads. Mine happen to be 52.

The bore is 4.2", stroke is 4.125", piston volume (reverse dome copy) is 28cc and compressed gasket thickness is .040. Static compression is right at 11.5:1 and yes, that works just fine with pump gas. Who would have figured?

"Did you know that the 2.2 is a "splayed" head"

Semantics.:rolleyes:

Sorry, when I think of a "Splayed Valve Head" my thoughts take me to the GM Splayed, Brodix BD2000 or some other such animal. Intake and exhaust valves have a cant to them. Not to mention they have a different valve order but what do I know.
The SB2.2 is just a 2.2 to me. I've been away from racing long enough that I don't know if the 2.2 falls under the "Splayed Valve" ruling but I can insure you this.... if I were building an engine for class racing I'd be sure to find out.

"How does this engine make so much power?

I thought it was a little low on power myself. :think:

Actually, I was hoping for a little more. When you look at my displacement and the hp it made we didn't break any records for NA street engines. There are guys out there with drivers making 1.8 hp/cid and better. I didn't even break 1.7. Hey, you can't please all the people all the time and the disbelievers will likely remain disbelievers no matter what is said. I have my own unique reasons for not posting more information than I have but that's my business.

Ahh anyways, I'm done for now...

-Mindgame

Nice!

Yeah there were some doubters in another forum, but I guess they are not familiar with 1.7 hp per cube street motors?

Bret

I would be willing to bet that most of the "doubters" own 12/13 second cars and have probably never built any type of SBC engine....more internet victims.

Actually most of them build drag stuff and don't get this fast street car stock hood loonies like us.

That suprises me (drag engine builders) since 1.7hp/ci. NA should not be difficult to acheive with a superior (SB2.2) head and some rpms. Heck, that is only 650hp on a 383 which has the restriction of a much smaller bore than Alan's new engine.

His previous combo made more than 650hp with 383ci.

Hey, they don't get what they don't know. Most of these guys like 280 duration cams, dome pistons and lots of RPM.

People don't believe what they don't understand is right.

Our's is right on the ragged edge of a "street" motor. I would not consider it such because of the comression. It makes 1.85 per cube and would be in that 1.7+ range even if we dropped the squeeze down to a pump gas level. Like MG, I am a little dissapointed in our numbers only in that the heads have so much left in them considering the low, restrictive intake we used for hood issues. Mine only flowed 380/270. I have had lengthy discussion with my engine builders about this and we feel that 2 hp / cube is attainable with head / intake work and a few other changes on a street type motor with this combo.

Ah, it's all good where I'm standing. :)

I think the level of buildsmanship is only going to improve where street engines are concerned. Only because guys like us are interested in pushing the NA stuff to new boundries.

I know I've poked at Bret more than a few times because he's a young guy. ;)

Fact is... because he IS capable of thinking outside the box... I'd send my stuff to him before I'd pay one of the big name drag engine builders who's set in the "old" way of thinking about engines. If for nothing more than the simple fact that he'd be willing to give it a TRY.

I was at a big name drag engine builders shop last year and overheard one of the staff tell a customer that any small block chevy stroker making in excess of 500hp was not going to run on pump gas. I started to tell him how many times I've done it. :)

Dave,
You'll find more as you go along. I found quite a bit with my last combination once I got it to the track and started tuning it there. Good to know that there's always more left. Good luck!

-Mindgame

Ah, it's all good where I'm standing. :)

I think the level of buildsmanship is only going to improve where street engines are concerned. Only because guys like us are interested in pushing the NA stuff to new boundries.

I know I've poked at Bret more than a few times because he's a young guy. ;)

Fact is... because he IS capable of thinking outside the box... I'd send my stuff to him before I'd pay one of the big name drag engine builders who's set in the "old" way of thinking about engines. If for nothing more than the simple fact that he'd be willing to give it a TRY.

I was at a big name drag engine builders shop last year and overheard one of the staff tell a customer that any small block chevy stroker making in excess of 500hp was not going to run on pump gas. I started to tell him how many times I've done it. :)

-Mindgame

You probably don't want to let Bret see this post...he'd have to add some more Velcro to the sizing band on his "Jim Beam Racing" cap.

Yeah, he does think out of the box sometimes, and gets me thinking there occasionally. There have been some interesting "discussions" on out-of-the-box engine topics around here. Rarely do they come to blows and it's not a replay of Orange County Choppers either. :)

Thanks MG, That means something! I'd like to build one of your setups, I'd probably learn something!

If I ever get my C5R headed motor together I want to shoot for 1.85-1.9 hp per cube AND make it a driver.

Bret

Wow, I get busy in the garage for a couple weeks working on the money pit, and I miss out on all the good talk about 2.2s. Sounds like everyone is coming around with their projects though! I'm just wasting time making everything look pretty before I start wiring the car. And as for hood fitment, I envy those who are working with anything smaller than a 4" cowl. In reality, I don't think I can do it. 5" probably is my cowl size in the end. Specs though are another whole story. I just hope it runs in the end.

427ci Motown Block
12.4:1 CR
415/309 cfm
267/273 dur .730/.715 lift
GM 12370854 Intake
Wilson Elbow / 105mm
2"-2 1/8" Lemons

Not sure what I'll be at for horsepower, but if it's better than my old 383 LT1 I'll be happy. ;) What have you guys been running for total timing on your 2.2s?

Bryce

Wow, I get busy in the garage for a couple weeks working on the money pit, and I miss out on all the good talk about 2.2s. Sounds like everyone is coming around with their projects though! I'm just wasting time making everything look pretty before I start wiring the car. And as for hood fitment, I envy those who are working with anything smaller than a 4" cowl. In reality, I don't think I can do it. 5" probably is my cowl size in the end. Specs though are another whole story. I just hope it runs in the end.

427ci Motown Block
12.4:1 CR
415/309 cfm
267/273 dur .730/.715 lift
GM 12370854 Intake
Wilson Elbow / 105mm
2"-2 1/8" Lemons

Not sure what I'll be at for horsepower, but if it's better than my old 383 LT1 I'll be happy. ;) What have you guys been running for total timing on your 2.2s?

Bryce


Lower the engine 2". Not hard just time consuming.
With a BMR K member it shouldn't be hard.

Bryce,

Start her out with 26 degrees and move from there. I settled on 28 degrees but my chambers are most likely a bit different from what you're running. Especially if you're still in the low 40cc range.

Those are some large headers. :)

I'm running 1-7/8" to 2" step on mine.

I think the problem alot of people have with these builds is they don't have a baseline. How many 430+ ci sb2.2 street builds do you know of? I think we'll be seeing alot more in the next few years though.

That and Bret's C5R stuff are likely to become much more common. Now if I could just get my passenger side valve cover gasket to seal. :mad:

-Mindgame

Thanks mindgame. I was going to start at 28, but starting safer doesn't hurt anything either. BTW, I have 49cc chambers. And as for baselines, I know what you mean! I can't even start to count the hours I've been on this computer trying to build a knowledge base for this thing. Some days I think bigger pills on the 396 LT1 I had lying around would've been just as much fun!

And, yes, the headers are enormous. I don't think I would've used such huge primaries, but that's what came with the heads. I guess they won't hurt when I spray it.

Aye, didn't know you were a sprayer Bryce. :D

In that case, the two inchers would be my choice too.

You plan on running a plate or direct port?

I'm very confident in saying... you'll never want to look at another 23 degree head once you get this thing up and running. ;)

-Mindgame

I'm very confident in saying... you'll never want to look at another 23 degree head once you get this thing up and running. ;)

-Mindgame
I'm insulted.. :D i hope to build a sb2 based motor after i get this one going... w/ a dart block of course, and maybe some forced indux...

If ever there was an exception, the 245RR is it.

You've got it that bad huh? :D

-Mindgame

I'm also going to run an NX STD setup, except with the twin rails down both sides. Haven't purchased it yet, as I'm going to run this year NA and see what I can do. I didn't have an engine dyno handy, so I'll be tuning the engine as well as the chassis when I get it out.

Getting closer though, down to the wiring and interior left. :)

Great #'s MG!!! I'll be playing with a set of SB2's for my car when I move back to Louisiana next month. You're getting me revved up man, LOL!
Steve...