Edmunds "Inside Line" on Zeta

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=104687

GM Planning Family of New RWD Performance Models
Date Posted 02-11-2005

Summary: General Motors will build a variety of cars for Pontiac, Chevy, even Buick on its new Zeta platform.

CHICAGO — The 2008 successor to the Pontiac GTO will be joined by performance-oriented siblings at Chevrolet and luxury editions at Buick late in the decade, according to supplier sources who spoke with Inside Line here at the Chicago auto show.

The next-generation GTO will be built on a new General Motors architecture known internally as the Zeta platform. It is basically an evolution of the current chassis that underpins the 2005 GTO, which is assembled in Australia by GM's Holden subsidiary.

The new GTO, however, will be built in Michigan, Inside Line has learned. It will be joined by a new sporty coupe and companion convertible model at Chevrolet. The bow-tie division reportedly will not resurrect the Camaro name on the car, but is said to be considering using the Monte Carlo badge on this new midsize rear-drive model.

Unlike the GTO, which will continue to be powered by a high-output Corvette V8, the Chevy two-doors, which are due around 2009, reportedly will offer buyers a choice of V6 and V8 engines.

Pontiac also will get a new rear-drive sedan, which internally is being referred to as the G8. Offered with V6 and V8 engines, it will debut around 2009, and will take the place of the front-wheel-drive Bonneville, which is being phased out later this year. It may also supplant the front-drive Grand Prix.

The production version of Buick's stunning Velite convertible concept is also expected to share the Zeta chassis, but the car will focus more on luxury than performance. Although the Velite is expected to be built in Michigan at the same factory as the Pontiac and Chevy models, a rear-drive Buick luxury sedan is expected to be imported from Holden in Australia.

What this means to you: GM is gambling hundreds of millions of dollars that Americans will embrace a new generation of midsize rear-drive performance and luxury models later in this decade.

A montecarlo huh? :o I won't buy it.

Only time will tell what'll happen. And if the worse happens (Zeta Monte Carlo),I'll B the first in raising some serious hell.

If they're not going to call it the Camaro..they shouldn't recycle any name at all..call it something new. The Monte Carlo name is the epitome of red-neck which most likely will KILL sales IMHO.

I guess that news is good and bad.

Hmm, if so, I guess the camaro is gone for a while longer, and may will come on another platform? Beta?

I see two possibilites here. One is that this information is old and inaccurate,the second is that Camaro will not be on Zeta. I'm betting on option#2 with an '07 debut. I'm also hoping that when Chevy does get a Zeta,it won't be named Monte Carlo.

The next-generation GTO will be built on a new General Motors architecture known internally as the Zeta platform. It is basically an evolution of the current chassis that underpins the 2005 GTO, which is assembled in Australia by GM's Holden subsidiary.

.

See what I mean..........

I thought this was old news, packaged as "new" and "inside" info from the great powerful automotive sourse, Edmunds.
IMO...sounds like crap we have known for some time, only without the recent Zeta shake up.

I thought this was old news, packaged as "new" and "inside" info from the great powerful automotive sourse, Edmunds.
IMO...sounds like crap we have known for some time, only without the recent Zeta shake up.

That's my "option#1". Other things make me think "option#2"

the fact that the earliest model year mentioned for any of those cars is 2008 and some in 2009, what's the point?? I'm not holding my breath for 3-4 years!

Well, there's going to be a 2007 GTO-so what does that tell us?

4 possibilities:

Carryover on old platform for an extra year? -not likely, Holden can't wait.

Debuts GMNA Zeta by itself in 07?

Debuts with other Zetas in 07? ( Aussie-built?)

Skips a model year? -not likely as the 06 production run will be short.

I thought this was old news, packaged as "new" and "inside" info from the great powerful automotive sourse, Edmunds.
IMO...sounds like crap we have known for some time, only without the recent Zeta shake up.

It verifies what I've been telling you guys for months.


I just hope I'm wrong and they're wrong. What happens during the current shake up may be our last hope for a modern car. :(

What this means to you: GM is gambling hundreds of millions of dollars that Americans will embrace a new generation of midsize rear-drive performance and luxury models later in this decade.

NEW!!!!??????????

Sounds like an early '90's Opel rehash to me. :mad:

NEW!!!!??????????

Sounds like an early '90's Opel rehash to me. :mad:
if you think about it, that names a LOT of cars in GM's portfolio. SAAB, Holden, Caddy, Saturn, and more recently Chevy (not to mention Opel itself) ALL have cars built on one of the German platforms from the early 90s. Buick to be soon included. like it or not, Opel has supplied GM with platforms, engineering and misc resources for more than half of the more recent cars. what's to be alarmed about? how is it a shock GM-NA can't be bothered to engineer a decent car platform on its own?

:shrug: :shrug:

Could this mean it will be-OMG, I don't want to say it......."RETRO!" :eek: :lol: :lol:

Man I can't wait for the crying to start here if it does!.

I am so amazed how many people are bashing a car (cars) that haven't even seen the light of day yet.

I really hope that article is false on the timeline . I am not waiting 3-4 moooore years to buy a new car . My 97 Bonneville will have over 200K miles come this spring , time to move on .

I'm hoping for the best, but at this point they (GM) have just about lost me as a future customer :( No Camaro (no Firebird!), No Solstice coupe, a GTO that is too heavy with uninspiring styling and a Vette that while I love it, I cannot afford it. That's about it for me I guess :( Time to start looking at other sporty/affordable alternatives when it comes time to replace the 'Bird...

More proof the Camaro will be something else. :D

I am so amazed how many people are bashing a car (cars) that haven't even seen the light of day yet.


Exactly. It's pathetic, its split between people who are of that idea that anything that isn't a new Camaro isn't worth building and those that are willing to wring every concievable drop of hope out of any remark about anything that comes from GM. :rolleyes:

2009?! wtf :bs:

Don't take so long :shrug:

Everybody loved Chris Pauwels/Kris Horton Camaro renderings, yet are bashing the thought of it not being called Camaro.

By the way, Edmunds is off base quite a bit. I wouldnt be surprised if they are attempting to do some damage control for the General.

The next-generation GTO will be built on a new General Motors architecture known internally as the Zeta platform. It is basically an evolution of the current chassis that underpins the 2005 GTO, which is assembled in Australia by GM's Holden subsidiary.
.

I always thought it was more of an evolution of sigma...

I am so amazed how many people are bashing a car (cars) that haven't even seen the light of day yet.

It's easy to bash a car that will be very, very LATE to market. The tired-and-weary old GTO still has TWO model years to go - assuming that we see 2006 and 2007 GTOs. I'm hoping that GM either puts the Holden-built GTO on "hiatus" or uses a less discredited name for the 2008 Pontiac coupe.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=104687

It will be joined by a new sporty coupe and companion convertible model at Chevrolet. The bow-tie division reportedly will not resurrect the Camaro name on the car, but is said to be considering using the Monte Carlo badge on this new midsize rear-drive model.

Translation: The Camaro is dead.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=104687Unlike the GTO, which will continue to be powered by a high-output Corvette V8, the Chevy two-doors, which are due around 2009, reportedly will offer buyers a choice of V6 and V8 engines.

Hmmm.... The LS2 is reserved for the GTO and the Chevy-badged coupe will get a lesser engine like the LS7 in the current 2006 Impala/MC SS?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=104687Pontiac also will get a new rear-drive sedan, which internally is being referred to as the G8. Offered with V6 and V8 engines, it will debut around 2009, and will take the place of the front-wheel-drive Bonneville, which is being phased out later this year. It may also supplant the front-drive Grand Prix.


So the dated 2004 Grand Prix will live until 2009 - if not far longer? By the end of this decade, GM's "Mid-Lux":lol: cars will be completely laughable from a competitive standpoint.

if you think about it, that names a LOT of cars in GM's portfolio. SAAB, Holden, Caddy, Saturn, and more recently Chevy (not to mention Opel itself) ALL have cars built on one of the German platforms from the early 90s. Buick to be soon included. like it or not, Opel has supplied GM with platforms, engineering and misc resources for more than half of the more recent cars. what's to be alarmed about? how is it a shock GM-NA can't be bothered to engineer a decent car platform on its own?


I think that you may be missing my point. I have no problem with platforms coming from Opel, Holden or anywhere else from GM's global operations. What I do have a problem with, is using an architecture with a two decade old suspension system...which is already considered outdated, obsolete and uncompetitive today, and rehashing it for cars which are still to be built in the future. Giving it a snazzy new name to try and make us believe that it is "all new", also adds insult to my list.

GM's future Zeta sedans will not quite be the equals of today's DCX LX cars. And when GM gets called on it....which they most certainly will, I just hope nobody cries "media bias".

Well whatever. I'm not so concerned about the sedans as I am about the Camaro. I mentioned previously that I sure would be angry if a circa '09/'10 Z/28 couldn't outrun a current 4,200 lbs SRT-8 300C around a road course. Looks like that 2 ton plus sedan will probably eat that Z/28 at it's own game.....in the same way it ate the '05 GTO.

It's easy to bash a car that will be very, very LATE to market.

Would it make you feel better if GM called the next Camaro the 6th gen, That way it won't be late, it will be right on time. The 5th gen will just have had a very low production run of "0" ;)

I'm hoping for the best, but at this point they (GM) have just about lost me as a future customer :( No Camaro (no Firebird!), No Solstice coupe, a GTO that is too heavy with uninspiring styling and a Vette that while I love it, I cannot afford it. That's about it for me I guess :( Time to start looking at other sporty/affordable alternatives when it comes time to replace the 'Bird...

The next GTO is not too far away. Who knows, it might be so good performance and stylewise that many Camaro fans will jump ship to Pontiac.

The next GTO is not too far away. Who knows, it might be so good performance and stylewise that many Camaro fans will jump ship to Pontiac.

I hope so.

Z284ever, that's exactly my point though. Back about 2 years ago when everyone was wetting their pants about "Sigma", I called it a rehashed GM2800 (Catera/Omega/Commodore). Sure it's an updated and re-egnineered GM2800, but its not a new platform. The fact that Caddy is having such a great success with it is a testement to how well they've done to separate the truth from advertising. I'm not saying the CTS/STS are bad cars by any means, but they aren't quite the "breakthrugh" that they are claimed to be. So my comment again, is its to be expected of GM to continue rehashing what they have and re-introducing it as new.

I was just on the Holden site. Guess what the "new" Saturn Aura looks like?? here's a vivid comparison:

Saturn Aura (http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2005/0501_saturn_aura/)

Holden Vectra (http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/gallery?navid=5&catid=1008)

morb|d:

Sigma is substantially different than GM2800. As far as I can determine, Sigma shares nothing with GM2800. It is completely different in every way that effects chassis dynamics. Sigma is great. A Sigma Camaro would make me a happy camper.

I'm referring to Zeta. Zeta....a new name for what appears to be a very old architecture.

I think that its all over :o


I lost faith

I think that you may be missing my point. I have no problem with platforms coming from Opel, Holden or anywhere else from GM's global operations. What I do have a problem with, is using an architecture with a two decade old suspension system...which is already considered outdated, obsolete and uncompetitive today, and rehashing it for cars which are still to be built in the future. Giving it a snazzy new name to try and make us believe that it is "all new", also adds insult to my list.

GM's future Zeta sedans will not quite be the equals of today's DCX LX cars. And when GM gets called on it....which they most certainly will, I just hope nobody cries "media bias".

Well whatever. I'm not so concerned about the sedans as I am about the Camaro. I mentioned previously that I sure would be angry if a circa '09/'10 Z/28 couldn't outrun a current 4,200 lbs SRT-8 300C around a road course. Looks like that 2 ton plus sedan will probably eat that Z/28 at it's own game.....in the same way it ate the '05 GTO.

The suspension will be exactly the same as Sigma. It was always going to be a mix of the V-body and Sigma. The VE Holdens are on the market soon, reserve judgement on Zeta till then.

The suspension will be exactly the same as Sigma. It was always going to be a mix of the V-body and Sigma. The VE Holdens are on the market soon, reserve judgement on Zeta till then.
'
So, a question or two, GTO for 07-built with the VEs for one model year? Or US-built? Either way we should be getting at least one Zeta for 07. As for Camaro, this is what I think: First I think that the updated Sigma and the Zeta program have effectively merged into one larger RWD program. Albeit with an immense range of possible models and flexibility such that telling that two variants stem from the same roots will be nearly impossible in some cases. We are talking about two platforms with the capability engineered in for multiple lengths,widths,cowl heights,drivetrains,AWD,RWD,LHD,RHD, meeting the requirements of multiple govts. and markets. Yes, I'm still talking about Camaro here,bear with me. Now you have all of this flexibility and economies of scale which you can manipulate nearly every aspect of including market and place of assembly in such a way that once in place, response to market shift can take place in record time. Also, updates can be staggered from market to market with imports back and forth covering the changeover. So, I say the Camaro may return to us with the sigma update, riding on what GM will call Sigma, which actually will be the Sigma aspect of the Sigma/Zeta engineering project. Provided that other entanglements can be resolved, it may even be that we get our Camaro before most of the Zetas arrive. If it is possible, I think GM will make it happen for 07.

'
So, a question or two, GTO for 07-built with the VEs for one model year? Or US-built? Either way we should be getting at least one Zeta for 07. As for Camaro, this is what I think: First I think that the updated Sigma and the Zeta program have effectively merged into one larger RWD program. Albeit with an immense range of possible models and flexibility such that telling that two variants stem from the same roots will be nearly impossible in some cases. We are talking about two platforms with the capability engineered in for multiple lengths,widths,cowl heights,drivetrains,AWD,RWD,LHD,RHD, meeting the requirements of multiple govts. and markets. Yes, I'm still talking about Camaro here,bear with me. Now you have all of this flexibility and economies of scale which you can manipulate nearly every aspect of including market and place of assembly in such a way that once in place, response to market shift can take place in record time. Also, updates can be staggered from market to market with imports back and forth covering the changeover. So, I say the Camaro may return to us with the sigma update, riding on what GM will call Sigma, which actually will be the Sigma aspect of the Sigma/Zeta engineering project. Provided that other entanglements can be resolved, it may even be that we get our Camaro before most of the Zetas arrive. If it is possible, I think GM will make it happen for 07.

I'm not sure how Modular Sigma will be. Zeta is the platform that has been engineered to easily change length/width etc.

Being sure is not part of the current reality here unfortunately, However there clearly exists some realtionship between the two platforms. Time will tell how close it is.

The suspension will be exactly the same as Sigma. It was always going to be a mix of the V-body and Sigma. The VE Holdens are on the market soon, reserve judgement on Zeta till then.


Ok, just for the heck of it, let's brainstorm this.

If Zeta is a mix of Sigma and V-car, and carries the exact same suspension as Sigma, then we can deduce that Zeta carries V-cars' structure. If it does, then what makes Zeta more flexible than Sigma? V-car has two different sized cars, (Monaro/GTO is essentially a 2 door Commodore) and 1 "trucklette". Sigma forms the basis of 3 vehicles....2 different sized sedans and one crossover vehicle. Sigma seems just as flexible to me.

And if Zeta is supposedly cheaper than Sigma, how can that be, if Zeta carrries Sigma's suspension which is really the only thing that makes Sigma more expensive than V-car...and by extension Zeta.

I'm not doubting your info Anthony, or the discussions I've had with people off-line....but it simply does not make logical sense to me.

A Sigma-tized V-car (aka Zeta), would be no less expensive than Sigma.....and probably no more flexible. A less expensive car than Sigma, would need less expensive components to make it less expensive....namely V-car's cheaper front struts and semi-trailing arm rear suspension. So if Zeta is supposed to be less expensive than Sigma, what Zeta ends up being is a rehashed version of V-car.

Is my logic flawed?

Well, the current Sigmas have what you could call a "badge surcharge" on them. Certainly,any Chevy Sigma would cost less regardless of suspension.

Ok, just for the heck of it, let's brainstorm this.

If Zeta is a mix of Sigma and V-car, and carries the exact same suspension as Sigma, then we can deduce that Zeta carries V-cars' structure. If it does, then what makes Zeta more flexible than Sigma? V-car has two different sized cars, (Monaro/GTO is essentially a 2 door Commodore) and 1 "trucklette". Sigma forms the basis of 3 vehicles....2 different sized sedans and one crossover vehicle. Sigma seems just as flexible to me.

A Sigma-tized V-car (aka Zeta), would be no less expensive than Sigma.....and probably no more flexible. A less expensive car than Sigma, would need less expensive components to make it less expensive....namely V-car's cheaper front struts and semi-trailing arm rear suspension. So if Zeta is supposed to be less expensive than Sigma, what Zeta ends up being is a rehashed version of V-car.



Maybe your right (I don't know) the current V-body is probably not more flexible than Sigma. However can Sigma produce a Standard 4 door Commodore, LWB Large Car, Coupe, Ute, Wagon, with RWD or AWD & LHD or RHD all of the same line? That is one area which Holden makes cost savings.

Zeta is what Holden wanted to do with VT series Commodore range in the 90's but did not have the money to do so. Which is why every variant of the V-body shares the same visual queues. This platform is being designed from ground up to be versitile. I'd be suprised if you recognise much of what the V-body currently is in Zeta. Ford Australia's Falcon platform is a good example of using a old platform and updating it (Original design I think dates back to the 50's !)

And if Zeta is supposedly cheaper than Sigma, how can that be, if Zeta carrries Sigma's suspension which is really the only thing that makes Sigma more expensive than V-car...and by extension Zeta.

All I can say on this is i've seen a few things in print that mention the VE having the same suspension as the CTS. I can't say if it will or won't be cheaper. Holden also gets blasted by the local media for its suspension and the Ford rival Falcon does have superior suspension. However you may still see Machperson Strut style suspension as well as fixed axel being optional on the base model Commodore or tray back style utes like the one-tonner.

Most of you are missing the obvious... what if the 5th gen Camaro isn't going to be on Zeta?

:think:

This harkens back to the theory that there are actually two cars... the new Chevy "Coupe" which will be a sister car to GTO and Monaro... and the new CAMARO.

GM isn't stupid enough to let the Camaro die for good. :irk:

[QUOTE=jg95z28]Most of you are missing the obvious... what if the 5th gen Camaro isn't going to be on Zeta?[/QOUTE]

:think:

This harkens back to the theory that there are actually two cars... the new Chevy "Coupe" which will be a sister car to GTO and Monaro... and the new CAMARO.

GM isn't stupid enough to let the Camaro die for good. :irk:[/QUOT




:D

All I can say on this is i've seen a few things in print that mention the VE having the same suspension as the CTS. I can't say if it will or won't be cheaper. Holden also gets blasted by the local media for its suspension and the Ford rival Falcon does have superior suspension. However you may still see Machperson Strut style suspension as well as fixed axel being optional on the base model Commodore or tray back style utes like the one-tonner.

I believe that steel suspension components will be used in Zeta instead of aluminum as in Sigma. This is how holden will reduce costs on the suspension.

And I don't think Holden will ever go back to a fixed axel on the base model (exec) seeing as they have had irs standard since 1997, and ford now have irs standard. Holden wouldn't want to be seen a going backwards. Holden also wouldn't want to be seen standing still when it comes to suspension. I'm sure OZ Mickey T would hand out an absolute pasting to Holden if they do something so stupid. GM NA on the other hand..............

I believe that steel suspension components will be used in Zeta instead of aluminum as in Sigma. This is how holden will reduce costs on the suspension.

And I don't think Holden will ever go back to a fixed axel on the base model (exec) seeing as they have had irs standard since 1997, and ford now have irs standard. Holden wouldn't want to be seen a going backwards. Holden also wouldn't want to be seen standing still when it comes to suspension. I'm sure OZ Mickey T would hand out an absolute pasting to Holden if they do something so stupid. GM NA on the other hand..............

Fixed axel I think has a chance of staying around for the one-tonner. I agree chances are slim to none that the Strut/Semi-trailer arm staying as a base model. However nothing is final yet ;)

Monte Carlo as the Chevy twin of the GTO sounds nice.. (debate on the "redneck" stigma of the name will be for a different thread)


But will GM also release another mid sizish RWD coupe aka Camaro too?

I'd expect the Camaro to weigh less, firmer suspension, and alot more agressive lines.... but also still be of high quality inside.. but a bit cheaper (since the GTO starts at $35k)

Which kinda makes me wonder.. what can they strip out to reduce weight and cost?


The way I read it.. future sounds kinda dim.. Unless GM really is doing a good job hiding something under their sleeve..


Honestly, the way I'm starting to view it now, GM does NOT want to utter the "C word" cause they do not want to associate the next RWD coupe with the C word, cause it will NOT be a C.. (although I do believe its crazy for GM to drop the Camaro name and line)


I think, realsticly, the best thing that may happen, is this new platform might yeild a GTO/MC car thats lighter with a better suspension and tire package that will satisfy the performance wants that the current GTO just by a hair or three misses...... although won't have that Camaro "soul" that alot of us are looking for..

Monte Carlo as the Chevy twin of the GTO sounds nice.. (debate on the "redneck" stigma of the name will be for a different thread)


I honestly believe there is more of a redneck stigma on the camaro name than Monte Carlo, but that is for later.

Any hoo...I'm more for the theory that the Monte Carlo will be Chevys Zeta. GM isn't about to drop that name any time soon with its' history and popularity in NASCAR. Also, why did the Monte Carlo only get a slight freshening when the Impala got redesigned? There are other plans for the Monte.

Since GM is holding off on making any more Kappas where would that leave us with the Camaro. Hmmm. How about a platform that isn't exactly Kappa but could be built on the same line (Beta)?

Z284ever,

Not to question your knowlege but are you hearing V-car with slight update=Zeta from multiple reliable sources? I have heard many others say it = cheaper Sigma.

Just curious.

Couldnt the Sigma/VE/Zeta variant be cheaper simply because they'd be buying 1.5 million pieces of something vs. 350,000 with the Cadillac-only lineup they have now?

Z284ever,

Not to question your knowlege but are you hearing V-car with slight update=Zeta from multiple reliable sources?


Yes.


I have heard many others say it = cheaper Sigma.

Just curious.

I've heard plenty of people describe it as a "cheaper Sigma" also.......all of them from the internet.


At any rate, as I posted in a previous thread, things are undergoing a major review right now. The one thing that we can depend on are delays for NA.

Fixed axel I think has a chance of staying around for the one-tonner. I agree chances are slim to none that the Strut/Semi-trailer arm staying as a base model. However nothing is final yet ;)


Yeah, but here in NA...you may get some GM, beancounting, "wiz-kids"......who figure, struts/semi-trailing arm for Camaro is great....since no one is complaining about Mustang's strut/live rear axle.

GM's future Zeta sedans will not quite be the equals of today's DCX LX cars. And when GM gets called on it....which they most certainly will, I just hope nobody cries "media bias".



I think that says it all. We can state with virtual certainty that GM's 2008/2009 Zeta-platform cars won't be the equals of Daimler-Chrysler's 2005/2006 LX-platform cars.

Damn these P.O.S. Zeta cars that noone has seen or driven!!!

What total GARBAGE they must be!!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Damn these P.O.S. Zeta cars that noone has seen or driven!!!

What total GARBAGE they must be!!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I agree with this. I think sometimes because we're on a future vehicle discussion board we want to form opinions on these cars much too quickly based on tidbits we "might" know about them. I'm going to wait and see.

I agree with this. I think sometimes because we're on a future vehicle discussion board we want to form opinions on these cars much too quickly based on tidbits we "might" know about them. I'm going to wait and see.

Better to make your opinion known on something that is under consideration.....BEFORE IT'S APPROVED AND TOO LATE, than to wait and cry about it when it IS too late.

Better to make your opinion known on something that is under consideration.....BEFORE IT'S APPROVED AND TOO LATE, than to wait and cry about it when it IS too late.


Saying things like the Zeta platform will not be the equal to the DCX platform is pure speculation.... not an opinion.

SO bottom line...

Chevy gets a Monte Carlo with V6 and mid level V8
Pontiac continues with GTO and the premium V8
Buick continues near luxury


NO CAMARO.

Ol' redplanet gets it WRONG AGAIN.

I'm kinda confused, why is everyone taking this info seriously??



:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Saying things like the Zeta platform will not be the equal to the DCX platform is pure speculation.... not an opinion.

Is that your opinion? Or are you speculating?

SO bottom line...

Chevy gets a Monte Carlo with V6 and mid level V8
Pontiac continues with GTO and the premium V8
Buick continues near luxury


NO CAMARO.

Ol' redplanet gets it WRONG AGAIN.

Not if Camaro isn't going to be on Zeta. :D

Saying things like the Zeta platform will not be the equal to the DCX platform is pure speculation.... not an opinion.


Is that your opinion? Or are you speculating?


No, what I said is a FACT.

Unless you have driven a completed Zeta car, you can not say that it is inferior to the DCX LX platform... that is pure speculation. To form an opinion, you'd have to drive the completed cars.

And even if you had, there can be a lot of different variants on the driving characteristics of a given platform. For example, a base Corvette doesn't handle like a Z51, which doesn't handle like a Z06, which doesn't handle like a magnetic ride optioned car...

So, in short, just because, in your opinion (it applies here since you have driven both cars (GTO and 300)), the current GTO doesn't handle the way you feel would be appropriate for a future Camaro, that doesn't mean that A) the current GTO platform couldn't be set up to perform in an appropriate fashion, and B) that the Zeta platform (whether it is an altered Sigma, and altered Holden V, or something altogether different) wouldn't be able to do this either...

No, what I said is a FACT.

Unless you have driven a completed Zeta car, you can not say that it is inferior to the DCX LX platform... that is pure speculation. To form an opinion, you'd have to drive the completed cars.

And even if you had, there can be a lot of different variants on the driving characteristics of a given platform. For example, a base Corvette doesn't handle like a Z51, which doesn't handle like a Z06, which doesn't handle like a magnetic ride optioned car...

So, in short, just because, in your opinion (it applies here since you have driven both cars (GTO and 300)), the current GTO doesn't handle the way you feel would be appropriate for a future Camaro, that doesn't mean that A) the current GTO platform couldn't be set up to perform in an appropriate fashion, and B) that the Zeta platform (whether it is an altered Sigma, and altered Holden V, or something altogether different) wouldn't be able to do this either...

Gee Darth, are you saying that it's not possible for me to form an opinion based on what I know? And do you really know what I know...and how it leads me to form an opinion?

I've never had a drink of gasoline before....but my opinion is, I wouldn't like it.
I've never brought Queen Latifa home for a slumber party....but my opinion is that my wife would probably be pissed.

See, I can form opinions based on what I know....whether I've proven the hypothesis or not.

As I'm sure you're aware, I'm very passionate about how I feel Camaro should or should not be.
Some people may not be as passionate as me about Camaro. They may feel uncomfortable being as vocal about it as I sometimes am.

That's fair, and I won't slam anyone for not feeling the same way I do.
But patiently waiting around for 4 or 5 years to see what happens before I give my opinion, just ain't gonna happen.......sorry.

Unless you have driven a completed Zeta car, you can not say that it is inferior to the DCX LX platform... that is pure speculation. To form an opinion, you'd have to drive the completed cars.


And you'll have to wait until 2009.:lol:

DCX was putting the finishing touches on the LX cars while GM was wasting time and money on rehashed W-bodies, G-bodies and a half-baked Australian "GTO." As usual, GM is half-a-decade late and still doesn't have a prayer of catching up.

However, I do expect the Zeta platform cars to positively effect GM's profits in the 3rd quarter of 2010.:lol:

I am so amazed how many people are bashing a car (cars) that haven't even seen the light of day yet.

Personally I am bery excited to hear that the Monte Carlo will go back to RWD!! It's about time too. I was realy hpoing that when the GTO came over that the Monte would pawn off it right away, but I guess its doing what GM thinks it needs to do.

Maybe FWD vehicles are gonna start dwindling away!!!! (doubt it though)

And for you guys unhappy about the "Camaro" name coment.. I didn't think GM was allowed to mention that name yet??

So there's room for a Camaro inbetween the Monte Carlo and Corvette, but there's no room for a bird next to the GTO? :think:

And you'll have to wait until 2009.:lol:

DCX was putting the finishing touches on the LX cars while GM was wasting time and money on rehashed W-bodies, G-bodies and a half-baked Australian "GTO." As usual, GM is half-a-decade late and still doesn't have a prayer of catching up.

However, I do expect the Zeta platform cars to positively effect GM's profits in the 3rd quarter of 2010.:lol:

Zeta will be positvely effecting profits next year ;)

Zeta will be positvely effecting profits next year ;)
This is definately true b/c Aus is making the switch before NA. The GTO(Monaro) AND the Buick sedan(Commedore) should be the 1st two to NA. I do wonder when the G8 will get here, could it be at the same time, shorter wheelbase Zeta.

Gee Darth, are you saying that it's not possible for me to form an opinion based on what I know? And do you really know what I know...and how it leads me to form an opinion?


Not at all... however, stating in a factual sense that Zeta won't be equal to LX is not giving an opinion. You laid it out as fact, maybe I'm reading too literally, but still....


As I'm sure you're aware, I'm very passionate about how I feel Camaro should or should not be.
Some people may not be as passionate as me about Camaro. They may feel uncomfortable being as vocal about it as I sometimes am.

That's fair, and I won't slam anyone for not feeling the same way I do.
But patiently waiting around for 4 or 5 years to see what happens before I give my opinion, just ain't gonna happen.......sorry.

There are a lot of people passionate about Camaro on this board... the majority of them have actually bought at least one new one over the last 12 years.

My point is, YOU have said everything is up in the air right now on Zeta among other things... so saying it would not be equal is an unfair statement. if it's not even a "go" in it's current state of development.

I mean, this is like talking to a sound engineer working with U2 about an upcoming album a year before it's release... not HEARING or SEEING anything... simply discussing the music with him. Then saying that the new stuff will not be be equal to a new Creed (if they were still around) album that came out 5 months ago... :shrug:

Not at all... however, stating in a factual sense that Zeta won't be equal to LX is not giving an opinion. You laid it out as fact, maybe I'm reading too literally, but still....



There are a lot of people passionate about Camaro on this board... the majority of them have actually bought at least one new one over the last 12 years.

My point is, YOU have said everything is up in the air right now on Zeta among other things... so saying it would not be equal is an unfair statement. if it's not even a "go" in it's current state of development.

I mean, this is like talking to a sound engineer working with U2 about an upcoming album a year before it's release... not HEARING or SEEING anything... simply discussing the music with him. Then saying that the new stuff will not be be equal to a new Creed (if they were still around) album that came out 5 months ago... :shrug:


I agree. We tend to jump to conclusions a little and it seems to me that a comment will be made and everything snowballs from there until what is being said is just rediculus.

Good analogy by the way.

I mean, this is like talking to a sound engineer working with U2 about an upcoming album a year before it's release... not HEARING or SEEING anything... simply discussing the music with him. Then saying that the new stuff will not be be equal to a new Creed (if they were still around) album that came out 5 months ago... :shrug:

SNEAKY NEIL, you are right! This is a great analogy.

I would wonder, why would this sound engineer who works with U2 say that? I would be very curious to hear his thoughts and why he formed that impression.

And you're right Darth, I did say that things are being reviewed right now. If you have an opinion......and I mean a real, heartfelt opinion, not merely the automatic anti-Z284ever stance..........NOW WOULD BE THE TIME TO VOICE IT!!!!!!!!!! I'm not kidding.

SNEAKY NEIL, you are right! This is a great analogy.

I would wonder, why would this sound engineer who works with U2 say that? I would be very curious to hear his thoughts and why he formed that impression.

And you're right Darth, I did say that things are being reviewed right now. If you have an opinion......and I mean a real, heartfelt opinion, not merely the automatic anti-Z284ever stance..........NOW WOULD BE THE TIME TO VOICE IT!!!!!!!!!! I'm not kidding.

I never have an automatic anti-anyone response.

I have actually (though rarely) agreed with a few things even redzed has said in the past, though it's been quite a while :think: :lol:.

Anyway, how can I tell them they are doing something I don't like when I can't see it, touch it, drive it, smell it, or anything else?

We've told them in the past in countless threads what we all want... Some want a small Camaro, some want a Camaro more along the size of the last few generations. Some want a 3 box coupe with a trunk, some want a hatchback. Some want T-Tops, others want a Targa, still others want a hardtop. Some want retro, others want modern... it's endless!

PS: For the one Camaro "sound engineer" you are talking to, there are obviously others who think it is going well... or it wouldn't be going at all. Keep that in mind.

So there's room for a Camaro inbetween the Monte Carlo and Corvette, but there's no room for a bird next to the GTO? :think:
Exactly.

PS: For the one Camaro "sound engineer" you are talking to, there are obviously others who think it is going well... or it wouldn't be going at all. Keep that in mind.

Hmmmm........

What if it wasn't just the lone heretic sound engineer? What if it was also the producer, the record company and even maybe Bono himself...........


Anyway, my feeling is that we are at an important crossroad. This "review" is a once in a program lifetime opportunity to make important changes....for better or worse.

I'm determined to do what little I can, to make sure, it's going to end up being for the better. If you have that warm, fuzzy feeling that everything is going swimmingly.......well, bless your soul.

Hmmmm........

What if it wasn't just the lone heretic sound engineer? What if it was also the producer, the record company and even maybe Bono himself...........


Anyway, my feeling is that we are at an important crossroad. This "review" is a once in a program lifetime opportunity to make important changes....for better or worse.

I'm determined that to do what little I can, to make sure it's going to end up being for the better. If you have the warm, fuzzy feeling that everything is going swimmingly.......well, bless your soul.


OK, let's say all this is true, and quite frankly, I am not in a position to deny it... so let's go with that, even though it's a pretty sad state of affairs if everyone, or the majority of people working on a new car think it is basically unworthy... I mean, if "Bono himself" doesn't like what he's doing, then why is he doing it to begin with?

How am I still supposed to tell them what I want changed when I don't know what is wrong to begin with... that is the point.

Really the only things you have mentioned is that it's not going to handle a road coarse as well as a DCX LX, and you base this on driving a current GTO...??? I can see that there are some connections possible... but it's not like you drove the new Zeta car.

Maybe you just need to throw some more bones out there... if you can't or won't do it in an open thread, please feel free to PM me... I'm always willing to listen, and maybe you can enlighten me.

Not if Camaro isn't going to be on Zeta. :D


OK but here's what's for sure(as sure as we can be on this forum) that zeta isn't ever going to be a Camaro.

Which leaves only 1 RWD chassis available? The Solstice chassis? Is that kappa? Nobody here wants a 2 seater miata sized Camaro.

OK but here's what's for sure(as sure as we can be on this forum) that zeta isn't ever going to be a Camaro.

Which leaves only 1 RWD chassis available? The Solstice chassis? Is that kappa? Nobody here wants a 2 seater miata sized Camaro.

Again, read back a few pages as this has been discussed before, at length.

The Holden Torana TT36 concept is based on a modified version of Kappa. Kappa on the surface appears to be a much more flexible architecture than Zeta, at least several here and on other websites have deduced this. Even Hot Rod Magazine (Feb. 2005, p. 27) is suggesting the Torana TT36 could be the basis for the next Camaro, provided a V8 will fit. The Torana TT36 has a longer wheelbase than the 4th gen Camaro. So much for Kappa being "Miata-sized".

Meanwhile, Chevrolet also needs a Zeta coupe and convertible. Why? First for the masses as a Monte Carlo replacement (either badged as a Monte, Chevelle or whatever). Secondly, as a proper model for NASCAR. A Camaro in a form that would be acceptable to Camaro enthusiasts, would be far to swoopy to fit the NASCAR templates. However a more upright RWD coupe, say a sister car to the GTO, would fit the role quite nicely.

The bottom line? There is a place for both cars in Chevrolet's stable. With the Corvette moving further over the top, there really is no fear that a Camaro based on a stretched version of Kappa would be too Corvette-like and piss-off the Corvette enthusiasts. Heck many may even buy both cars... a Vette for the husband and a Camaro for the Mrs.

In a perfect world, My next gen Camaro is a Z28 based off a stretched version of Kappa with the Z06 LS7 between the frame rails. (Red are you reading this? ;) )

Again, read back a few pages as this has been discussed before, at length.

The Holden Torana TT36 concept is based on a modified version of Kappa. Kappa on the surface appears to be a much more flexible architecture than Zeta, at least several here and on other websites have deduced this. Even Hot Rod Magazine (Feb. 2005, p. 27) is suggesting the Torana TT36 could be the basis for the next Camaro, provided a V8 will fit. The Torana TT36 has a longer wheelbase than the 4th gen Camaro. So much for Kappa being "Miata-sized".

Meanwhile, Chevrolet also needs a Zeta coupe and convertible. Why? First for the masses as a Monte Carlo replacement (either badged as a Monte, Chevelle or whatever). Secondly, as a proper model for NASCAR. A Camaro in a form that would be acceptable to Camaro enthusiasts, would be far to swoopy to fit the NASCAR templates. However a more upright RWD coupe, say a sister car to the GTO, would fit the role quite nicely.

The bottom line? There is a place for both cars in Chevrolet's stable. With the Corvette moving further over the top, there really is no fear that a Camaro based on a stretched version of Kappa would be too Corvette-like and piss-off the Corvette enthusiasts. Heck many may even buy both cars... a Vette for the husband and a Camaro for the Mrs.

In a perfect world, My next gen Camaro is a Z28 based off a stretched version of Kappa with the Z06 LS7 between the frame rails. (Red are you reading this? ;) )


Your "perfect world" and mine are quite similar. I hope we at least get close to it. :D

Your "perfect world" and mine are quite similar. I hope we at least get close to it. :D

Here, here!

Again, read back a few pages as this has been discussed before, at length.

The Holden Torana TT36 concept is based on a modified version of Kappa. Kappa on the surface appears to be a much more flexible architecture than Zeta, at least several here and on other websites have deduced this. Even Hot Rod Magazine (Feb. 2005, p. 27) is suggesting the Torana TT36 could be the basis for the next Camaro, provided a V8 will fit. The Torana TT36 has a longer wheelbase than the 4th gen Camaro. So much for Kappa being "Miata-sized".

Meanwhile, Chevrolet also needs a Zeta coupe and convertible. Why? First for the masses as a Monte Carlo replacement (either badged as a Monte, Chevelle or whatever). Secondly, as a proper model for NASCAR. A Camaro in a form that would be acceptable to Camaro enthusiasts, would be far to swoopy to fit the NASCAR templates. However a more upright RWD coupe, say a sister car to the GTO, would fit the role quite nicely.

The bottom line? There is a place for both cars in Chevrolet's stable. With the Corvette moving further over the top, there really is no fear that a Camaro based on a stretched version of Kappa would be too Corvette-like and piss-off the Corvette enthusiasts. Heck many may even buy both cars... a Vette for the husband and a Camaro for the Mrs.

In a perfect world, My next gen Camaro is a Z28 based off a stretched version of Kappa with the Z06 LS7 between the frame rails. (Red are you reading this? ;) )


Sorry I'm not buyin it.(Not the car, but the scenario you're outlining) ;)

Too many "if's" in there. If Holden makes this Torano. If it'll hold a V8. If GM has the time or money to fit another RWD car in its plans(in addition the already late Solstice and upcoming zeta cars). If it'll get done by 2010...

What we know was that zeta is for sure. It's a GO. It will hold the big V8. GM's spending big time money and effort on the program. It's NOT for a Camaro.

Hmmm...Something I don't understand. Zeta is a go. We will have a Buick, Chevy, and Pontiac from it at a minimum. What happened to the "GM can't adjust it's NA manufacturing process to make Zeta" statement? :confused:

Zeta will be positvely effecting profits next year ;)

In Australia, perhaps. For red-blooded Americans - those who drive on the right and don't eat Kangaroo meat - the wait will be much longer. We're talking about at least 2008 for the GTO and 2009 for the Pontiac sedan and Chevrolet derivatives.

In Australia, perhaps. For red-blooded Americans - those who drive on the right and don't eat Kangaroo meat - the wait will be much longer. We're talking about at least 2008 for the GTO and 2009 for the Pontiac sedan and Chevrolet derivatives.


GTO will almost certainly be a MY2007 car....

In Australia, perhaps. For red-blooded Americans - those who drive on the right and don't eat Kangaroo meat - the wait will be much longer. We're talking about at least 2008 for the GTO and 2009 for the Pontiac sedan and Chevrolet derivatives.

Ahh Kangaroo hey...tried it once, it has kind of game meat type taste like vension ;)

Sorry I'm not buyin it.(Not the car, but the scenario you're outlining) ;)

Too many "if's" in there. If Holden makes this Torano. If it'll hold a V8. If GM has the time or money to fit another RWD car in its plans(in addition the already late Solstice and upcoming zeta cars). If it'll get done by 2010...

What we know was that zeta is for sure. It's a GO. It will hold the big V8. GM's spending big time money and effort on the program. It's NOT for a Camaro.
The problem with your scenario is that you're assuming GM isn't already working on the Camaro. :D

If you have an opinion......and I mean a real, heartfelt opinion, not merely the automatic anti-Z284ever stance..........NOW WOULD BE THE TIME TO VOICE IT!!!!!!!!!! I'm not kidding.


Ok, I've signed petitions, emailed GM, signed Bobs blog, etc.... What exactly is the best way to voice our opinion on getting a new Camaro? Which medium will have the greatest effect? Whats the best way to make GM HEAR us?

I stand corrected... both cars will be Zeta based. ;)

Ok, I've signed petitions, emailed GM, signed Bobs blog, etc.... What exactly is the best way to voice our opinion on getting a new Camaro? Which medium will have the greatest effect? Whats the best way to make GM HEAR us?


Sounds like you're doing all the right things. :thumb:

I wasn't really referring specifically to Camaro there however. I was referring more to possibilities of what might happen to Zeta during the shake-up.

Right now, I'm more concerned about getting a Camaro that's done right......rather than simply getting a Camaro.

OK, let's say all this is true, and quite frankly, I am not in a position to deny it... so let's go with that, even though it's a pretty sad state of affairs if everyone, or the majority of people working on a new car think it is basically unworthy... I mean, if "Bono himself" doesn't like what he's doing, then why is he doing it to begin with?

How am I still supposed to tell them what I want changed when I don't know what is wrong to begin with... that is the point.

Really the only things you have mentioned is that it's not going to handle a road coarse as well as a DCX LX, and you base this on driving a current GTO...??? I can see that there are some connections possible... but it's not like you drove the new Zeta car.

Maybe you just need to throw some more bones out there... if you can't or won't do it in an open thread, please feel free to PM me... I'm always willing to listen, and maybe you can enlighten me.


Kind of disappointing that you didn't reply to this here or in PM...

Right now, I'm more concerned about getting a Camaro that's done right......rather than simply getting a Camaro.
Preach it man, I think a rwd MC would be nice, especially since its always been a straitline power machine most of its life.

We need something that will handle on rails. Everyone gets to wrapped up in 1/4 mile times, we need something that can go fast in a straitline, but can also take a corner or two. Thats the kind of camaro I want, thats the ONLY kind of camaro I would buy.

*rant off*

Kind of disappointing that you didn't reply to this here or in PM...

I'd say I've thrown lots of bones.......maybe they're nailing you on the noggin.....since you seem so irritated by them.

I'd say I've thrown lots of bones.......maybe they're nailing you on the noggin.....since you seem so irritated by them.

Nah.

All you keep saying is basically "Zeta sucks for a Camaro because the current GTO doesn't handle the way I want a new Camaro to.... and it's too big"

And, while I'll agree with you on some of it (the handling ot a degree, but not the size), it doesn't make a whole lot of sense int he big picture.

Nah.

All you keep saying is basically "Zeta sucks for a Camaro because the current GTO doesn't handle the way I want a new Camaro to.... and it's too big"

And, while I'll agree with you on some of it (the handling ot a degree, but not the size), it doesn't make a whole lot of sense int he big picture.

What if the Chevy Zeta-GTO equivalent is one car, and the Chevy-ponycar is a different Zeta? ;)

What if the Chevy Zeta-GTO equivalent is one car, and the Chevy-ponycar is a different Zeta? ;)


If that is the case, it still doesn't explain the Zeta bashing....

What if the Chevy Zeta-GTO equivalent is one car, and the Chevy-ponycar is a different Zeta? ;)

Maybe, but right now, it's more a question of if the "Chevy GTO" car can morph into a Chevy ponycar. We'll see, maybe we've got a chance. This Zeta review, perhaps opens some doors....perhaps not.


There are people within GM who actually realize that a ponycar is not a midsized 2 door GTO/MonteCarlo type car, and that one thing that a Camaro must do, is handle....regardless of the fact that it's prime competitor - Mustang - seems to have relegated handling to a secondary role.

Unfortunately, for every one guy at GM that "gets it", there are others who are simply clueless. Just hope the good guys win.

The problem with your scenario is that you're assuming GM isn't already working on the Camaro. :D


Now we're back to GM having secret development programs kept in the black that no one knows about.

We've known about the sigma->zeta development for over a year. We knew about the Solstice chassis and that it's producing the Solstice/Saturn twins. So somehow there's still ANOTHER secret development going on?

Not likely. In fact, any hope of additional development added on for a Camaro probably went out the window in a $2Billion bag to Fiat.


Nope. Confirmation of the zeta NOT being used for a Camaro is confirmation that the Camaro is DEAD. The GTO is the GM performance coupe.

Now we're back to GM having secret development programs kept in the black that no one knows about.
Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

We've known about the sigma->zeta development for over a year. We knew about the Solstice chassis and that it's producing the Solstice/Saturn twins. So somehow there's still ANOTHER secret development going on?Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting.

Not likely. In fact, any hope of additional development added on for a Camaro probably went out the window in a $2Billion bag to Fiat.Sorry, but that is simply not the case.

Nope. Confirmation of the zeta NOT being used for a Camaro is confirmation that the Camaro is DEAD. The GTO is the GM performance coupe.You want to put money on that? ;)

Maybe, but right now, it's more a question of if the "Chevy GTO" car can morph into a Chevy ponycar. We'll see, maybe we've got a chance. This Zeta review, perhaps opens some doors....perhaps not.


There are people within GM who actually realize that a ponycar is not a midsized 2 door GTO/MonteCarlo type car, and that one thing that a Camaro must do, is handle....regardless of the fact that it's prime competitor - Mustang - seems to have relegated handling to a secondary role.

Unfortunately, for every one guy at GM that "gets it", there are others who are simply clueless. Just hope the good guys win.
The Chevy GTO is going to be one car. The Zeta that will become a certain ponycar is a completely different car.

We've known about the sigma->zeta development for over a year. We knew about the Solstice chassis and that it's producing the Solstice/Saturn twins.

We didn't know anything about the Solstice or the Kappa platform until it was right under our noses at last year's NAIAS. Has Ford "officially" anounced the next Mustang Cobra? Of course not. Do we all agree it's coming? Of course. Just because something hasn't been announced or shown doesn't mean it isn't being worked on. Hell, talking about Ford/Mustang vaporware and how it will crush this and that has become a big sport around here.

We didn't know anything about the Solstice or the Kappa platform until it was right under our noses at last year's NAIAS. Has Ford "officially" anounced the next Mustang Cobra? Of course not. Do we all agree it's coming? Of course. Just because something hasn't been announced or shown doesn't mean it isn't being worked on. Hell, talking about Ford/Mustang vaporware and how it will crush this and that has become a big sport around here.


The D2C(stang) chassis has been public info for the last 2 years. I'm not talkin specific vehicles and variants.

I'm saying there is NO CHASSIS to put an acceptable Camaro on. And no cheap way to get there.

You got big - zeta
you got little - kappa
you got expensive - sigma
and you got vette

None of which were a secret from sites like this years before the actual car showed. There's no chassis for the Camaro. There's no secret chassis development going on. Lutz and Co. are betting that you all and the public will accept the Monte Carlo and GTO as replacements for the F-bod.

Actually, they don't care much about what you all think considering gear head enthusiast sales don't matter much to begin with.

The Chevy GTO is going to be one car. The Zeta that will become a certain ponycar is a completely different car.


Right that's the Monte Carlo.

There are so many possible scenerios floating around that I'm not so sure anyone can predict how it all shakes out.

Maybe....

The Zeta sedans and coupes will go their seperate ways....or maybe not.

Maybe....

The Zeta coupes will be based on Sigma, vs the Zeta sedans......or maybe not.

Maybe....

Zeta will evolve into merely a W-car replacement program....or maybe not.

Maybe....

Camaro will be sacrificed on the alter of CAW negotiations.....or maybe not.

Maybe....

Caddy will want to develop it's own coupe, and you can bet the farm that this coupe architecture won't be based on Zeta.......or maybe not.

Honestly, even if Rick Wagoner or Bob lutz posted here.....THEY might not even know.

Lots to chew on...and it might take half of a year to sort out.

Right that's the Monte Carlo.

That's not my understanding. ;)

Honestly, even if Rick Wagoner or Bob lutz posted here.....THEY might not even know.




Wasn't Rick Wagoner the guy who though buying Fiat would be a great idea?

Didn't Bob Lutz say that the Chrysler 300C would never have been approved if he'd had anything to do with it?

I think that says it all.:lol:

Wasn't Rick Wagoner the guy who though buying Fiat would be a great idea?

Didn't Bob Lutz say that the Chrysler 300C would never have been approved if he'd had anything to do with it?

I think that says it all.:lol:Wow, look at redzed mocking the intelligence of the CEO of one of the largest companies in the world. I'm sure he got there by being a moron... :think:

As for Lutz, I think he meant the 300 would not have LOOKED that way (i.e. fugly) had he been in charge. I'd bet he would have been all over a V8 powered, rear drive, American family/luxury sedan, and it still would have sold well. See, DCX can sell just about anything nowadays if it has the "hemi" in it. Put 4 wheels on a steaming pile of dog poo and drop a "hemi" in it, and a bunch of people would still buy it (see: Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum). But if it had been Lutz, it might have been rear drive, V8 "hemi" powered, AND good looking. But anyway...

:)

Wow, look at redzed mocking the intelligence of the CEO of one of the largest companies in the world. I'm sure he got there by being a moron... :think:

Roger Smith:lol:....Jack Smith:lol:....Robert Stemple:lol:....

....Judging by this sort of roll call of "past talent" I have to wonder about the hiring process for chief execs at GM.


As for Lutz, I think he meant the 300 would not have LOOKED that way (i.e. fugly) had he been in charge. I'd bet he would have been all over a V8 powered, rear drive, American family/luxury sedan, and it still would have sold well. See, DCX can sell just about anything nowadays if it has the "hemi" in it. Put 4 wheels on a steaming pile of dog poo and drop a "hemi" in it, and a bunch of people would still buy it (see: Chrysler 300 and Dodge Magnum). But if it had been Lutz, it might have been rear drive, V8 "hemi" powered, AND good looking. But anyway...


It turns out that 96_Camaro_B4C thinks you actually can argue with success.

Like it or not, the Chrysler 300 is a huge sales success. Like-it-or-not, the German management had to rid Daimler-Chrysler of elderly Americans (like Eaton and Lutz) to make this sort of success happen.

It turns out that 96_Camaro_B4C thinks you actually can argue with success.

Like it or not, the Chrysler 300 is a huge sales success. Like-it-or-not, the German management had to rid Daimler-Chrysler of elderly Americans (like Eaton and Lutz) to make this sort of success happen.


Didn't you just try to argue about the successful DTS?

It turns out that 96_Camaro_B4C thinks you actually can argue with success.

Like it or not, the Chrysler 300 is a huge sales success. Like-it-or-not, the German management had to rid Daimler-Chrysler of elderly Americans (like Eaton and Lutz) to make this sort of success happen.I didn't say it wasn't a success, I just said it was ugly. Putting into context what I thought Lutz meant about not approving the car. Lutz is a design-oriented guy, not an engineering guy. He is concerned with tumble-home and body lines and curves and perceived interior quality (grains on plastics, how surfaces and knobs feel, etc.), in addition to the fun-to-drive qualities enabled by the "hemi" and the rwd chassis. So when he says the 300 wouldn't have been approved by him, I take that to mean he would not have approved such an ugly design (even if it would have sold well based on its technical merits and decent price). He would have made it better looking (if possible on the LX platform) before letting it out the door. :)

Didn't you just try to argue about the successful DTS?Bahahahah! Thanks, I forgot to mention that in my reply. :)

Oh yeah, it is so tempting to pull out our favorite smilie in such a situation... but I'll restrain myself.

:D

Didn't you just try to argue about the successful DTS?

I argued against GM's strategy to allow the DTS to slowly wither away without a substantial redesign. There's no excuse for underinvesting in such a profitable carline.

I didn't say it wasn't a success, I just said it was ugly. Putting into context what I thought Lutz meant about not approving the car. Lutz is a design-oriented guy, not an engineering guy. He is concerned with tumble-home and body lines and curves and perceived interior quality (grains on plastics, how surfaces and knobs feel, etc.), in addition to the fun-to-drive qualities enabled by the "hemi" and the rwd chassis. So when he says the 300 wouldn't have been approved by him, I take that to mean he would not have approved such an ugly design (even if it would have sold well based on its technical merits and decent price). He would have made it better looking (if possible on the LX platform) before letting it out the door. :)

The Chrysler 300 does look new and fresh, something I can't say about GM's elderly DTS and copycat Buick Lucerne and LaCrosse. I personally, don't like the Chrysler 300's very, very limited glass area, but the overall design is brilliant. I can't think of single Lutz-era Chrysler that's had the same impact as the 300. Actually, I can't think of a half-way decent car from Lutz's period of employment at Chrysler. Hooray for the Germans!

The Chrysler 300 does look new and fresh, something I can't say about GM's elderly DTS and copycat Buick Lucerne and LaCrosse. I personally, don't like the Chrysler 300's very, very limited glass area, but the overall design is brilliant. I can't think of single Lutz-era Chrysler that's had the same impact as the 300. Actually, I can't think of a half-way decent car from Lutz's period of employment at Chrysler. Hooray for the Germans!


Uh... both the Viper AND the Intrepid came out under Lutz.... these two cars probably saved Chrysler Corp from disappearing altogether.

Viper gave the company an image car (finally), and Intrepid was a miracle car for Dodge. It finally brought them into the 90's ... striaght from the 70's!

Redzed you are wrong Chrsler would be in a much better place today if it hadn't been for the "merger of equals". That merger set every single thing in the chrysler portforlio, that wasn't really close to produciton, back about 2 years. How big of a hit would the 300C have been if it had jumped on the scene 2 years earlier? Also Chrylser is holding up Mercedes right now so don't go bragging about the Germans.

Uh... both the Viper AND the Intrepid came out under Lutz.... these two cars probably saved Chrysler Corp from disappearing altogether.

Viper gave the company an image car (finally), and Intrepid was a miracle car for Dodge. It finally brought them into the 90's ... striaght from the 70's!

1. Both generations of the Intrepid had plenty of flaws, both in design and execution. Is it any wonder that the nameplate died. I have a hard time comparing the 1993 Intrepid, or the 1998 Intrepid, to Chrysler's current 300C.

2. The first generation Viper always felt like a "kit car" more than a "production car." Sure, it generated a buzz, but the buzz was that the Viper didn't have much to do with the K-car based products that were still in production at the time.

Redzed you are wrong Chrsler would be in a much better place today if it hadn't been for the "merger of equals". That merger set every single thing in the chrysler portforlio, that wasn't really close to produciton, back about 2 years. How big of a hit would the 300C have been if it had jumped on the scene 2 years earlier? Also Chrylser is holding up Mercedes right now so don't go bragging about the Germans.

The LX-platform is derived from the current generation Mercedes E-class (not the last generation car). Quite frankly, the LX cars were set back 6-12 months at most, not the 2 year figure you state.

It was old-school Chrysler management that couldn't make any progress on a RWD Chrysler flagship, not the post-merger-shakeout German management.

Nope. Confirmation of the zeta NOT being used for a Camaro is confirmation that the Camaro is DEAD. The GTO is the GM performance coupe.

Not necessarilly. Zeta may or may not be the basis for all the sedans and coupes.

As far as GTO being GM's performance coupe, unlikely. The next GTO's volume will be waaaay under 30,000 units. In fact, it probably won't even outsell Corvette.


The GM performance coupe has/will have one bogey....and that's Mustang. GTO will barely be a blip on the radar screen for Mustang.

Is anybody else getting sick of Chevrolet using the same freaking names for cars for the last half a century???

Monte Carlo
Impala
Camaro
GTO
(Rumors of Chevelle)

Not saying I don't want a Camaro, but I think Chevy is killing themselves using old names. Look at Ford, the only thing they could come up with is a stupid retro version of an old Mustang. Why not drop the Mustang name, come out with a completely new design and head towards the future? Instead they have locked the Mustang into looking the same for the rest of it's life. It might be cool for a couple years, but it will fade. Then what's next? A Fox Body retro mustang!!!!

I would love Chevrolet to introduce a new sport coupe with a completely new name. The Camaro has a great history and I love my Camaro to death and will never sell it. But the fact is, we really need something fresh and if Chevrolet comes out with a Retro looking "Camaro" it will make me sick. I think the best thing Chevrolet could do especially to attract other people is to come out with a Coupe similar to the Camaro in size, but go COMPLETELY against the grain with a new redesign. No Camaro design cues, no Camaro grills, etc... I think maybe GM has recognized that the Camaro has had a great history, and it is time to move on...

I'm completely for a 5th gen pony car. As to if it's named a Camaro or not, I don't really care. I just don't want GM being afraid of trying something new just because it is a "Camaro."

Is anybody else getting sick of Chevrolet using the same freaking names for cars for the last half a century???

No.



Why not drop the Mustang name, come out with a completely new design and head towards the future?

I should have stopped reading at this point. Mustang is the most recognized car name in the known universe. I don't know what you think the future is, you must be one of those turbine powererd engine people, because clearly people like what they already know.



Instead they have locked the Mustang into looking the same for the rest of it's life. It might be cool for a couple years, but it will fade. Then what's next? A Fox Body retro mustang!!!!

Really, because the new mustang certainly looks different than the last of twenty years of production and I think this is part of its life. :rolleyes:


I would love Chevrolet to introduce a new sport coupe with a completely new name. The Camaro has a great history and I love my Camaro to death and will never sell it. But the fact is, we really need something fresh and if Chevrolet comes out with a Retro looking "Camaro" it will make me sick. I think the best thing Chevrolet could do especially to attract other people is to come out with a Coupe similar to the Camaro in size, but go COMPLETELY against the grain with a new redesign. No Camaro design cues, no Camaro grills, etc... I think maybe GM has recognized that the Camaro has had a great history, and it is time to move on...


Attract who ricers? The people who are interested in a pony car already know what they wan't and Camaro is one of two definitive American pony cars, so I don't follow you.


I'm completely for a 5th gen pony car. As to if it's named a Camaro or not, I don't really care. I just don't want GM being afraid of trying something new just because it is a "Camaro."

I wasn't aware GM had a 4 generations of history to base a pony car off of other than Camaro :shrug:

Is anybody else getting sick of Chevrolet using the same freaking names for cars for the last half a century???

Monte Carlo
Impala
Camaro
GTO
(Rumors of Chevelle)



You do know that the GTO is a Pontiac, Right??? :confused:

1. Both generations of the Intrepid had plenty of flaws, both in design and execution. Is it any wonder that the nameplate died. I have a hard time comparing the 1993 Intrepid, or the 1998 Intrepid, to Chrysler's current 300C.

2. The first generation Viper always felt like a "kit car" more than a "production car." Sure, it generated a buzz, but the buzz was that the Viper didn't have much to do with the K-car based products that were still in production at the time.


Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

Intrepid was ground breaking for Chrysler Corp. It brought them out of the dark age of styling for everyday cars.

Viper was a supercar when it came out. Even the original Vipers will still outrun most anything put out today.

Attract who ricers? The people who are interested in a pony car already know what they wan't and Camaro is one of two definitive American pony cars, so I don't follow you.



Well I'm sure GM would love to bring in alot more people then they are. The Camaro was faultering in the last few years and they had to stop it. I think to sit back and take a break for awhile. Give them a chance to throw something new in the equation.



I wasn't aware GM had a 4 generations of history to base a pony car off of other than Camaro :shrug:


Exactly why it's time for something new.

I'm not saying they don't /ever/ have to bring it back. But lets see a new name and new image come from Chevrolet right now. Not a hacked up 48yr old one. Just my 2c.

Buick is going to have three Zetas, so why can't Chevy have two? ;)

Well I'm sure GM would love to bring in alot more people then they are. The Camaro was faultering in the last few years and they had to stop it. I think to sit back and take a break for awhile. Give them a chance to throw something new in the equation.

Meh. Chevy can barely do things they know right, I don't know if I trust them with something totally new. Not only that, but even I know GMs decision to kill the Cam3ro had little to do with its faltering sales, and more to do with plant and platform issues and them generally sucking.


I'm not saying they don't /ever/ have to bring it back. But lets see a new name and new image come from Chevrolet right now. Not a hacked up 48yr old one. Just my 2c.

People don't like new things. They say they do but they really don't. How else do you explain "Vanilla Coke" "Chocalate Lucky Charms" and almost every show on television.

Everytime I pull up anywhere in teh Cam3ro there is at least one person who has to give a thumbs up and may proceed to tell me about their Cam3ro, thier fathers, uncles, whatever. While a new car would create some buzz, a lot of people will still want to know where their Cam3ro is... a la GTO.

Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

Intrepid was ground breaking for Chrysler Corp. It brought them out of the dark age of styling for everyday cars.

The 1993 Intrepid turned out to be a huge disappointment after the very hopeful launch. After the first year or so, resale values collapsed. The first generation Intrepid was very lacking in build and material quality. The second generation car was much better, but by that time the damage had been done. It was old school Chrysler that soiled the Intrepid nameplate, not today's Daimler-Chrysler.


Viper was a supercar when it came out. Even the original Vipers will still outrun most anything put out today.

The original Viper had cartoon styling and cheap interior materials. Sure it was quick, but so are plenty of kit cars. The second generation car lost a few rough edges but the overall appearance and concept is still lost in the '90s.

The Viper is a bittersweet memory of Chrysler's past. The past is precisely where it belongs.

The 1993 Intrepid turned out to be a huge disappointment after the very hopeful launch. After the first year or so, resale values collapsed. The first generation Intrepid was very lacking in build and material quality. The second generation car was much better, but by that time the damage had been done. It was old school Chrysler that soiled the Intrepid nameplate, not today's Daimler-Chrysler.




The original Viper had cartoon styling and cheap interior materials. Sure it was quick, but so are plenty of kit cars. The second generation car lost a few rough edges but the overall appearance and concept is still lost in the '90s.

The Viper is a bittersweet memory of Chrysler's past. The past is precisely where it belongs.


Wow.

Today's Nissan has a "cartoon styled" family car in the Maxima, and no supercar in the U.S. at all...

They also built the Sentra which is worse than the current Stratus or Neon sedans as far as looks, safety, and performance.... and it's pretty long-in-tooth to boot.

But you sing their praises all the time! :lol:

Wow.

Today's Nissan has a "cartoon styled" family car in the Maxima, and no supercar in the U.S. at all...

They also built the Sentra which is worse than the current Stratus or Neon sedans as far as looks, safety, and performance.... and it's pretty long-in-tooth to boot.

But you sing their praises all the time! :lol:

1. I'm not a big Maxima fan, but GM's current slate of FWD sedans shows you can do much, much worse.

2. The Sentra is the last of the pre-Renault Nissans. As I've said many time before, this car is going bye-bye. The Sentra will be replaced by at least 3-4 seperate models.

3. I don't own a Maxima or a Sentra.

1. I'm not a big Maxima fan, but GM's current slate of FWD sedans shows you can do much, much worse.

That's debatable. I can't think of a single GM sedan that looks worse than the current Maxima... of course, we were talking about Dodge/Chrysler, yet you switched to GM :confused:


2. The Sentra is the last of the pre-Renault Nissans. As I've said many time before, this car is going bye-bye. The Sentra will be replaced by at least 3-4 seperate models.

So? They still build it. You bashed Cavalier when Cobalt was on it's way... pretty hyopcritical to bash one, and make excuses for the other. :rolleyes:


3. I don't own a Maxima or a Sentra.

Ya, well, you don't own an Armada either, do you?

That's debatable. I can't think of a single GM sedan that looks worse than the current Maxima... of course, we were talking about Dodge/Chrysler, yet you switched to GM :confused:

Well, that Chrysler 300C looks and feels like more a quality piece than any GM product. It must be the Mercedes sourced parts.:lol:




So? They still build it. You bashed Cavalier when Cobalt was on it's way... pretty hyopcritical to bash one, and make excuses for the other. :rolleyes:

The big problem with the current Sentra isn't the drivetrain (which is fine) or the overall fit and finish (which is fine) but the very old, undersized platform that dates back to Nissan's darkest mid-90s days. The upcoming car is coming with a turbocharged 2.5 liter VR-series in the performance flagship, a well tuned Renault derived chassis and it won't look anything like the old model. The "won't look anything like the old model" part is something you sure can't say about about the Cobalt.




Ya, well, you don't own an Armada either, do you?

Still suffering from "SUV envy?":lol::lol::lol:

Well, that Chrysler 300C looks and feels like more a quality piece than any GM product. It must be the Mercedes sourced parts.:lol::blah:The big problem with the current Sentra isn't the drivetrain (which is fine) or the overall fit and finish (which is fine) but the very old, undersized platform that dates back to Nissan's darkest mid-90s days. The upcoming car is coming with a turbocharged 2.5 liter VR-series in the performance flagship, a well tuned Renault derived chassis and it won't look anything like the old model. The "won't look anything like the old model" part is something you sure can't say about about the Cobalt.Perhaps, but imo the Cavalier wasn't ugly like the Sentra is. The Cavalier sedan was blandish, I suppose, but still looked decent for a small car (certainly better than the Corolla and Sentra, anyway). The coupe was rather stylish for its class, however, although the front end got a little goofy in '03 and '04. But the overall shape was pretty nice.Still suffering from "SUV envy?":lol::lol::lol:Again, you could make all these guys eat their words and maybe even earn a modicum of credibility if you'd just put up a pic...

*sigh*