GM sales plummet 6.8%

GM, the world's largest automaker, said sales excluding its Saab brand fell 6.8 percent in December to 425,303 vehicles, ending a year when it lost about 1 percentage point of market share.

Ford down 3.6%.
Toyota up 18%
Nissan up 32%

GM lost about 1 percentage point of market share, and Ford barely outsold Chevrolet.

http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/050104/autos_sales_4.html

I'm wondering where everyone is who kept telling me that by now GM would no longer be losing grounds, but instead, Toyota would be.:think:

:no: Stupid consumers.

It was the die hard GM nuthuggers on this site, who could not see the reality of the GM lineup..:lol: It will get better though for GM, I hope.

Ford lost a point of market share as well. Silly domestics...

Hey, keep going and buying **** overseas, by the time everyone realizes it, it'll be too late. Keep shopping at Walmart and buying Toyotas.

Great news for our $500 billion trade deficit....

I hope you young folks have rich parents. You may not have any jobs....

Hey, keep going and buying **** overseas, by the time everyone realizes it, it'll be too late. Keep shopping at Walmart and buying Toyotas.

:( Well, it looks like GM has some nice new models being released that have upped the quality like the cobalt and G6. If they move passed their bad reputation in this area, things will look up for them. I will only buy American regardless, but that is of my own accord.

Good!!

Maybe they'll do something about how much they rip people off....lol. People aren't going to buy their $20 bolts anymore :confused: ....they will go get some ARP which or better....point being people are kindof getting fed up with high priced parts....at least i am. They are high priced anyway, then the dealorship has another mark up. Or make a real car like the Camaro again.....hmmm they said the Camaro wasn't selling....but wait none of their stuff is really selling....guess they just wanted to axe it.....have a little resentment for GM if you can't tell. They make good cars and parts...but their attitude and style i don't care for--nor do i of any other car dealor...guess they are competitive.

I am pleased they finally made a car to keep up with the Viper though....2005 Corvette is going to be awesome.

:( Well, it looks like GM has some nice new models being released that have upped the quality like the cobalt and G6. If they move passed their bad reputation in this area, things will look up for them. I will only buy American regardless, but that is of my own accord.

No, damnit, the Accord is a Honda! Geez! ;)

Main reason being.....if they would spend a little extra to put some more ponies under the hood...or spend a little extra on the suspensions...they are getting better about it though.

I'll tell you right now....Nissan and Honda spend way more on engenering than does GM.....when GM realizes this quits cutting corners and puts some real cars out there they will be back in business.....come up with some real names too.......who buys a truck called Colorado??? That's a state get a better name. Ford Lightning now there is a name and a truck to back it.

How the hell does Toyota increase sales by 18% and Nisssan up 32%!!!!??

Germany's Volkswagen AG (XETRA:VOWG.DE - News) earlier this week said it will offer a year of free car insurance to customers in two states as a new way of attracting business. The move aims to boost VW's U.S. sales, which have suffered since 2002 due to an aging model line-up and intense competition from rivals.


I wonder if I qualify for that :)

How the hell does Toyota increase sales by 18% and Nisssan up 32%!!!!??

It's easier to improve a low sales figure than it is to improve a high sales figure.

Nissan was almost bankrupt a few years back... they got a few billion dollars from Rennault to get their act back together and have made great 'improvements' since then, which in all reality means they've cut their costs to the point of making cheap cars for lower prices and are making a killer profit off of it because people still assume Nissan = Nissan.

I don't even think of them as half of the same company anymore and personally I see the veil on their act is already wearing thin. People will start to catch on soon enough - but if Nissan is smart they will change their act before that happens (from what I read about the new M35/45 they are already changing their tune).

Hehe...just thought it would be cool time to throw in that, all 8 of my wife and I, and my parents vehicles bear the Chevrolet or GMC name. :cool: And if I can recall correctly - out of a total 18 vehicles in my above mentioned family, there have been only 4 that weren't GM, and 1 that was foreign. :eek:

I'll tell you right now....Nissan and Honda spend way more on engenering than does GM.....when GM realizes this quits cutting corners and puts some real cars out there they will be back in business.....come up with some real names too.......who buys a truck called Colorado??? That's a state get a better name. Ford Lightning now there is a name and a truck to back it.:think: :blah:

And for the last effing time I will say do you people realize that about the same or slightly higher percentage of Nissan, Toyota, and Honda's vehicles sold in the US are produced in the US than of most of the domestic brands? Quite a bit of their engineering is being done over here as well, and almost all of their administrative practices as well. The only thing that really makes it back to Japan is the profits, which usually get invested right back into their operations here.

So the domestic manufacturers sure aren't helping us out much either by moving jobs off shore, then again they kinda have to because the unions have grabbed them by the balls (whereas most of the japanese manufacturers have gone to great lengths to deny union labor).

So it's not just the consumer. It's the manufacturer and the unions and so much more.

But I'm not worried. This is the beginning of what I think will someday be known as the global economy ages. We had the industrial age last and now we start seeing companies become very multinational, and jobs become more evenly distributed.

Personally I'm glad to see this happen. I think it's the only way we can truely unite the world on a cultural level some day is through money/economic binding (the only language that all countries speak).

It's easier to improve a low sales figure than it is to improve a high sales figure.

Nissan was almost bankrupt a few years back... they got a few billion dollars from Rennault to get their act back together and have made great 'improvements' since then, which in all reality means they've cut their costs to the point of making cheap cars for lower prices and are making a killer profit off of it because people still assume Nissan = Nissan.

I don't even think of them as half of the same company anymore and personally I see the veil on their act is already wearing thin. People will start to catch on soon enough - but if Nissan is smart they will change their act before that happens (from what I read about the new M35/45 they are already changing their tune).
Catch onto what exactly? Right now I consider them up there with Honda in terms of material quality. I have no clue about their reliability, but their interiors and designs are absolutely gorgeous right now.

Catch onto what exactly? Right now I consider them up there with Honda in terms of material quality. I have no clue about their reliability, but their interiors and designs are absolutely gorgeous right now.They might be neat to look at (I don't particularly like most of them) with the shiny "brushed aluminum" looking plastic, but they are not up there with Honda/Acura in interiors. IMO, of course.

Catch onto what exactly? Right now I consider them up there with Honda in terms of material quality. I have no clue about their reliability, but their interiors and designs are absolutely gorgeous right now.

Are you are referring to Nissan?

The way an interior looks and feels from the get-go vs how it holds up over the long-term are two very different things. Just ask a Volkswagon owner, or maybe a 2002 Altima owner, or maybe even a 2004 Infiniti QX56 owner here in another year or two of driving.

Thats part of the reliability thing...I don't know how their materials last over time either. I just know that their interiors when new are plush as anything for the same money.

Meanwhile, DCX is back from the dead and kicking it Kung Fu style. They're car lineup is FAR more exciting than GM's, in my opinion.

They might be neat to look at (I don't particularly like most of them) with the shiny "brushed aluminum" looking plastic, but they are not up there with Honda/Acura in interiors. IMO, of course.
Maybe I would care if I was into the whole brevity thing, ok? :rolleyes: ;)

Meanwhile, DCX is back from the dead and kicking it Kung Fu style. They're car lineup is FAR more exciting than GM's, in my opinion.

I agree but DCX IMO is not even half domestic anymore realistically. Still "better" than a full japanese company. But sad that the only way a domestic car company has been able to see such a great improvement in their lineup was to more or less be taken over by a European car company that specializes in luxury models for its US market sales.

Maybe I would care if I was into the whole brevity thing, ok? :rolleyes:Ehh... Why the rolling eyes? I was just expressing my opinion of their interiors, just as you did in response to Threxx's earlier post. What gives dude?

Oops...forgot the wink :D

i knew they shouldnt have stopped making the trans am :D

I agree but DCX IMO is not even half domestic anymore realistically.
Close enough for me. My car was built 60 miles from my house by my first college roommate in Belvidere, Illinois. If I'm helping put food on his kid's table that's good enough for me.

Oops...forgot the wink :DAhh. I figured so, but you can never be sure... "**** it Dude. Let's go bowling." :D

Wow Threxx look at Nissan's numbers :)

Doug D

Wow Threxx look at Nissan's numbers :)

Doug D

Yep... pretty good. They have some damn exciting models and offerings. I just think that their current marketing tactics are dishonest. Effective, yes. But still dishonest.

Anyway... like I said earlier in this thread, it's easier to improve from where they were a few years ago. But where they will really prove themselves is if they are still making these kind of gains 5 years from now. I think the only way they will do that is by putting some more QC into some of their models.

Nissan has some issues, interior wise holding up and dealership warranty wise, but their drivetrains are proven, and engines are incredible and styling that many people really like. Nissan does not have any real major hurdles, except when fixing obvious flaws...for example the Nissan minivan is a total pile of crap.. Nissan is looking the other way.. Maximas wear our struts like crazy yet there is no real new part # to correct this. But overall Nissan/ Infiniti really has it going on right now. If Nissan can tweak their problems ( which are not as bad as I think threxx suggests), they will continue to eat up market share.

It's easier to improve a low sales figure than it is to improve a high sales figure.

So true....that's why Nissian has 32% because they use to be so low...you couldn't even find a dealor, or get your car worked on.


And like someone else said GM just won't step out of the box. Foriegn cars have better looks a lot of the time. If GM wants to make a Cobalt....almost the same as the Cavalier go ahead...but people want something eye cathing nowadays....watch sales drop even more. Nissian Z and Mazda Rx-8....actually have some curves and design other than just another 4-door coupe...now those are some bad azz looking cars.....has GM even once tried a totally new body style??? They just slap a name and some different fenders on and call it the 2005 model........that's why they are losing sales. That is the reason they are losing sales--plain and simple....but they will try to blame it on other factors....this and that.....when it's their own fault. Heck just buy a custom bodykit from a manufaturer for a car they make slap it on there paint it...which would cost them like how much...nothing really...and it would sell nowadays. save people the time of putting one on anyway. Why are bodykit sales way high...people just don't like how they come from the factory....cause they suck

Take a look at the high selling cars......it's always something that's either super cheap or something that really catches your eye. GM needs to wake or they might just end up being on the bottom of the food chain. It's going to take some awesome car's for GM to gain some respect back.

( which are not as bad as I think threxx suggests)

I know... it's just my opinion and I realize that I put an unusually heavy focus on interiors compared to most other people.

Their motors are awesome for sure, and their exterior looks are definitely being well-accepted by the general public.

Overall they are going things right. I'm just frustrated that their overall quality control on small items (not just in the interior) has gone down dramatically over the past few years, and if you look, it's obvious why. They fired most of their engineers and QC people in order to make themselves more profitable. And that they have done for sure.

I know... it's just my opinion and I realize that I put an unusually heavy focus on interiors compared to most other people.

Their motors are awesome for sure, and their exterior looks are definitely being well-accepted by the general public.

Overall they are going things right. I'm just frustrated that their overall quality control on small items (not just in the interior) has gone down dramatically over the past few years, and if you look, it's obvious why. They fired most of their engineers and QC people in order to make themselves more profitable. And that they have done for sure.

Where you put interior high on your totem pole, I put driving excitment (not Pontiac) and styling.

If Toyota would have offered something comparable to the G35 coupe, I would of bought it in a heartbeat. Toyota needs to have more exciting cars in their lineup in my opinion.

The G35 has been holding up well though.

Doug D

Where you put interior high on your totem pole, I put driving excitment (not Pontiac) and styling.

If Toyota would have offered something comparable to the G35 coupe, I would of bought it in a heartbeat. Toyota needs to have more exciting cars in their lineup in my opinion.

The G35 has been holding up well though.

Doug D

I agree. Toyota is the last place I would look if I were looking for an exciting/sporty car at the moment.

However I've just realized that I'd rather have one somewhat exciting but completely dependable/comfortable car for now until I can afford a second car. Then, believe me, unless I'm looking at a turbo Supra (which I probably won't be), Toyota is going to be nowhere on my list of cars to look at.:)

I test drove a G-35 sedan.. A little smaller onthe inside than I wanted, but an awesome car for sure.. One problem kept me from really wanting to buy the car... The damn power seat switch on the 4 door is on the damn seat, in the way.. After driving my friends for 1/2 hour, it bugged the living hell out of me.. Something that simple, yet that flawed will keep me from buying one..

Then looked at a ES 330.. The car itself is bland styling wise, handling is not terrific, but the interior was schweet, and felt it had great quality, ergonomics. I would actually buy a Es330 over a G-35 for those stupid reasons.. :lol:

Then looked at a ES 330.. The car itself is bland styling wise, handling is not terrific, but the interior was schweet, and felt it had great quality, ergonomics. I would actually buy a Es330 over a G-35 for those stupid reasons.. :lol:

Everyone says the ES330's styling is so bland, but to be honest I prefer the looks of the exterior and interior on the ES300/330 (02+) over my GS4, which is a car that many people say is an exception to Lexus' rule of bland styling. :confused:

And yes, the ES330's interior is flat-out best in class in looks, feel, and quality... even better than some cars above its class.:o

However the drivetrain and handling are most definitely not engaging in the least. The handling is OK I guess, but the drivetrain just feels more like a very smooth/quiet appliance. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I truly don't think the G35 coupe will be a POS that will fall apart in a couple years. Up to par with Toyota, probably not, but by far not at GM/Ford. My 92 Accord is breaking little things left and right, and the GN, well thats for STRICTLY power (and some styling). But believe me, when I drive the GN all day and hop in the G35, it's night and day, and I could careless if it was Toyota or Nissan on the badge :)

Supra :drool That is next on my list (that or a Mastercraft)

Doug D

If Toyota would have offered something comparable to the G35 coupe, I would of bought it in a heartbeat. Toyota needs to have more exciting cars in their lineup in my opinion.


BTW... your wish may come true.

The current IS300 handles very well but seriously lacks in power and really doesn't offer the same comfort or feature content of most other Lexus models either. But it's getting a ground-up redesign here in the very near future along with a new 300 horsepower n/a V6 based on the same block design to be used in the new '06 GS300, and people suspect soon after we may see a factory turbo model, as that motor is very well-suited to boost.

That is good news.

I liked the IS300 till I drove one (had the Maxima at the time). I swear my Maxima stock was faster (I ran door to door with a few IS's) and the backseat was tiny and disappointing. But if you think about it, Kyle, look how many Toyota sold:) All because it was a sharp, exciting well performing car (manly handling).

I'm sorry to see the good ole I6 get replaced, but Toyota knows what they are doin.

Doug D

A lot of Chevy parts are subcontracted out to China. Look at the Equanox or whatever; Chinese-made parts. Civics are made in Kentucky and Camrys in Illinois, or something like that? So that's giving people jobs. Remember that GM doesn't just make crap cars, cause if they did they would go out of business. They make high quality cars for export and think that the consumers in America are patriotic to keep following even when their dashboards and door panels fall apart. GM is starting to realize quality is on the top 3 things people look for on a car now, and they're slowly but surely improving.

Once I read this quote, I got to thinking......

"Clearly the oil situation, gas situation, has had an impact on bigger SUVs," said Steve Lyons, president of Ford's core Ford division."

Why aren't our car car companies doing anything about oil prices? I mean, these are multi billion dollar companies, You would think they could persuade OPEC to pump out some more oil or something... I know it would help American vehicle sales, since our cars are always known more for being gas hogs...

Personally I'm glad to see this happen. I think it's the only way we can truely unite the world on a cultural level some day is through money/economic binding (the only language that all countries speak).

Threxx, bud, you are a bright guy, but think about what you are saying. The US has about 3.5% of the world's population and uses about 45% of its resources. The only way to "go global" is to severely reduce our standard of living. Economics, as Thomas Malthus said, is the dismal science because it addresses the study of scarcity. I like my standard of living higher than the rest of world. Globalism sucks.

As for outsourcing v foreign makers doing some work here, this is really about power and control as much as anything. I want it all here--exec, workers, resources, plant, profits, etc., as I want my legal jurisdiction and my means of production to overlap, for obvious reasons. Also, historically, foreign makers really did only final assembly here from parts and subassemblies made in their home markets. I haven't seen a stat on this recently, however.

Regardless of this debate, GM and Ford are too important to go broke--our economy would permanently collapse, and if our big industrial companies go, we can forget about having a state-of-the-art military as well.

I truly don't think the G35 coupe will be a POS that will fall apart in a couple years. Up to par with Toyota, probably not, but by far not at GM/Ford. My 92 Accord is breaking little things left and right, and the GN, well thats for STRICTLY power (and some styling). But believe me, when I drive the GN all day and hop in the G35, it's night and day, and I could careless if it was Toyota or Nissan on the badge :)

Supra :drool That is next on my list (that or a Mastercraft)

Doug D


Actually, didn't GM recently surpass Nissan in JD power and associates quality test? I believe it was posted here before. I believe chevy has less problems per vehicle then Nissan did.

Actually, didn't GM recently surpass Nissan in JD power and associates quality test? I believe it was posted here before. I believe chevy has less problems per vehicle then Nissan did.


IIRC yes they did just barely pass them for 2004 in initial 90 day quality.

I still don't think that Nissan is going to be surpassed by GM in mid term or long term durability/quality.

IIRC yes they did just barely pass them for 2004 in initial 90 day quality.

I still don't think that Nissan is going to be surpassed by GM in mid term or long term durability/quality.


Ahh, so it was initial quality. Well, it's a start. :)

Good!!

Maybe they'll do something about how much they rip people off....lol. People aren't going to buy their $20 bolts anymore :confused: ....they will go get some ARP which or better....point being people are kindof getting fed up with high priced parts....at least i am. They are high priced anyway, then the dealorship has another mark up. Or make a real car like the Camaro again.....hmmm they said the Camaro wasn't selling....but wait none of their stuff is really selling....guess they just wanted to axe it.....have a little resentment for GM if you can't tell. They make good cars and parts...but their attitude and style i don't care for--nor do i of any other car dealor...guess they are competitive.

I am pleased they finally made a car to keep up with the Viper though....2005 Corvette is going to be awesome.

Import parts make domestic parts seem cheap, so I don't see your point.

And for the love of all things good and holy, please learn to spell "dealer."

Main reason being.....if they would spend a little extra to put some more ponies under the hood...or spend a little extra on the suspensions...they are getting better about it though.

I'll tell you right now....Nissan and Honda spend way more on engenering than does GM.....when GM realizes this quits cutting corners and puts some real cars out there they will be back in business.....come up with some real names too.......who buys a truck called Colorado??? That's a state get a better name. Ford Lightning now there is a name and a truck to back it.

I agree with you on the suspension/enginering lacking at GM.

However, the Colorado name competes with the Ranger, and I think Colorado wins. Besides, Durango is a city in California and no one complains of that name. Oh yeah, and the Lightning is being dropped, so what does that say?

Oh yeah, and the Lightning is being dropped, so what does that say?
It says that the beancounters think it won't make money.

The future doesnt look good for GM. Health care is costing them $5 billion a year. 90% of their profits come from GMAC-GMs financial arm. Incentives have been helping volume, but now people have grown weary of rebates.
There was a story in the Detroit News that said GM was shutting down the Lansing MI plant that produces the SSR for 5 weeks because of a 300 day supply at current sales levels. Hello, thats a 10 months supply and into the next model year! Maybe more incentives...
Solara is Toyotas competition to the G35, if you ask me.

Everybody is talking about Nissan up 32%. Toyota is not small, and they were up 18% with boring cars. The kind of cars Chevy/Buick should be offering.

-B

:no: Stupid consumers.


Yea right :cry:

We're very happy with our 2003 Toyota RAV4!

It's deserved!!!!!!!!! There's no CAMARO available now!

There's nothing the General builds that I'm interested in except the C6 Vette.

I know me, Darth Xed, and Big Als Z did our part and bought a brand new GM this past year. 2005 Will hopfully be better with all the new mainstream high volume cars that will be out. G6, Cobalt, Impala, Monte, HHR.

Great news for our $500 billion trade deficit....

I hope you young folks have rich parents. You may not have any jobs....

I am continually amazed at how little most people know about how the economy works.

We have been running trade deficits for decades. If they are really so bad, why are we not all broke as a nation?

2. Reasons. 1. Wealth Creation. The US economy creates value because of our industries. Information, technology, we generate things that are worth something and that makes up for the cash that we bleed.

2. and more important than #1, Foreign re-investment. Sure the profits go back to Japan, but they spend that money back here building billion dollar manufacturing plants and bidding out supplier contracts and employing blue collar workers in fairly high-wage jobs.

Go to Smyrna TN and tell the thousands that work for Nissan there plus the thousands more that work at supplier companies that buying Japanese hurts America.

Same thing With Wal-mart. I hate all the wal-mart bashing going on out there, becaue most of it is based in myth. Yes a lot of stuff from wal-mart comes from China, because it can be made cheaply. Would you rather buy a Vacuum cleaner worth $100 for $80 at Wal-mart made in China or would you rather buy a $100 vacuum for $180 made in Alabama?

Ban foreign production and all the sudden your standard of living drops massively because your cost of living went up 200%. Then companies are going broke because they can't sell their now-overpriced products, laying workers off, who can't afford to live because the cost of living went up. So how does that help America?

Cheap stuff means a higher standard of living for everybody. I can save 20% on my groceries at Wal-mart vs. a regular grocery. That's like a $100 raise per month...just like my boss giving me $1200 a year more. That kind of real buying power increase helps lower income people more than upper income people because a greater percentage of a lower-income person's money will go to essential goods.

Can you even comprehend what Wal-Mart has done for the U.S retaill industry? People cry about Wallyworld destroying mom & pop stores but the truth is 75% of Wal-Mart employees get benefits and in most rural communities they actually INCREASE average wages when a new Wallyworld opens.

Wal-marts distribution technologies have revamped the whole industry as other companies have copied their techniques. The US Military has even copied some of the technology interms of logistics management. When a new store gets built, construction firms make money, Housecleaning companies get nice contracts to clean stores. There is so much money trickling down from walmart out into the economy it would boggle your mind.

But that's the problem with economics, nobody ever sees the complete picture, so they form flawed conclusions.

Everybody whines about outsourcing. One notable economist said that outsourcing is vital because the kinds of jobs that usually get outsourced are lower wage or lower value jobs, which frees up labor force in the U.S. to go into newer, higher value/higher wage industries. At 5.4% unemployment (Remember, classical economics says 5% unemployment is considered full employment...too hard to dip below 5%) you have to ship some jobs overseas to free up workforce for new jobs.

I am continually amazed at how little most people know about how the economy works.

We have been running trade deficits for decades. If they are really so bad, why are we not all broke as a nation?

2. Reasons. 1. Wealth Creation. The US economy creates value because of our industries. Information, technology, we generate things that are worth something and that makes up for the cash that we bleed.

2. and more important than #1, Foreign re-investment. Sure the profits go back to Japan, but they spend that money back here building billion dollar manufacturing plants and bidding out supplier contracts and employing blue collar workers in fairly high-wage jobs.

Go to Smyrna TN and tell the thousands that work for Nissan there plus the thousands more that work at supplier companies that buying Japanese hurts America.

Same thing With Wal-mart. I hate all the wal-mart bashing going on out there, becaue most of it is based in myth. Yes a lot of stuff from wal-mart comes from China, because it can be made cheaply. Would you rather buy a Vacuum cleaner worth $100 for $80 at Wal-mart made in China or would you rather buy a $100 vacuum for $180 made in Alabama?

Ban foreign production and all the sudden your standard of living drops massively because your cost of living went up 200%. Then companies are going broke because they can't sell their now-overpriced products, laying workers off, who can't afford to live because the cost of living went up. So how does that help America?

Cheap stuff means a higher standard of living for everybody. I can save 20% on my groceries at Wal-mart vs. a regular grocery. That's like a $100 raise per month...just like my boss giving me $1200 a year more. That kind of real buying power increase helps lower income people more than upper income people because a greater percentage of a lower-income person's money will go to essential goods.

Can you even comprehend what Wal-Mart has done for the U.S retaill industry? People cry about Wallyworld destroying mom & pop stores but the truth is 75% of Wal-Mart employees get benefits and in most rural communities they actually INCREASE average wages when a new Wallyworld opens.

Wal-marts distribution technologies have revamped the whole industry as other companies have copied their techniques. The US Military has even copied some of the technology interms of logistics management. When a new store gets built, construction firms make money, Housecleaning companies get nice contracts to clean stores. There is so much money trickling down from walmart out into the economy it would boggle your mind.

But that's the problem with economics, nobody ever sees the complete picture, so they form flawed conclusions.

Everybody whines about outsourcing. One notable economist said that outsourcing is vital because the kinds of jobs that usually get outsourced are lower wage or lower value jobs, which frees up labor force in the U.S. to go into newer, higher value/higher wage industries. At 5.4% unemployment (Remember, classical economics says 5% unemployment is considered full employment...too hard to dip below 5%) you have to ship some jobs overseas to free up workforce for new jobs.

You had me in complete agreement till you got to the outsourcing part.

Anything that has to do with computer operation is being outsourced simply because the person sitting at the keys can be had at lower pay & next to no additional benefits. Yet because of hyperspace there is no transportation or any costs outside of setting up a link. Taxes? Lower.

You have people in India managing our health records, people in China doing our engineering, and people in other very low paying countries including Eastern Europe doing everything from providing customer service, to billing and a whole range of other jobs that need nothing more than a computer hookup.

If you are freeing up the labor force to move into higher value jobs, you need higher value jobs to go in to. I don't see any high value field outside of nursing where we are chronically short of people, but a wealth of low paying jobs that seemingly are having trouble finding people, even teenagers, to employ.

Guy, I will concede your point to a degree. India is the exception as they have a skilled technical workforce.

But interestingly, what is happening now is that labor costs in India are skyrocketing because of all the tech work going there. So, it is all of the sudden nowhere near as hot of a place to outsource to as a couple of years ago. Jobs are actually coming back here from India.

Mexico is losing mfg jobs to China. Years of exporting jobs to Mexico has increased their average wages to the point that Chinese labor is now cheaper. The cycle continues. It is a way to increase standard of living in poor countries while we benefit as well from cheaper goods and a net effective increase in household buying power.

Besides, no one has effectivlely addressed how we are going to stop the jobs from going overseas? Go to the ports and inspect containers full of jobs? LOL.

Who gets to decide which jobs go and which have to stay? I still say its an OK thing. Outsourcing lowers costs of production, which means lower cost of goods. Supply and demand says when the cost drops sales will increase, meaning more net revenue to the company, which is then used to grow the company, expand locations, hire more admin and sales staff, etc. Eventually the company makes up for the production jobs it sent abroad through sheer growth.

Its been said we are only outsourcing about 50,000 jobs a year anyway, vs an average net job creation of 150,000 per MONTH (1.8m/yr). If you watch Lou Dobbs tonight you get the sky-is-falling picture of all of this w/o any of the larger context.

BTW,

While everyone was debating about foreign cars taking over our domestic market, did anyone stop to notice that the only automakers that are seeing market share increases (Foreign or Domestic) are the same automakers that didn't put all their cards in SUVs? (I'm not talking about pickup trucks, which still are top sellers)

Which automakers make more SUVs than any other? GM and Ford. Chrysler has the Durango and to a lesser extent, the PT Cruiser. That's it.

Now, how many does Ford have? GM?

Where has GM and Ford been hit hard? Cars!

What is leading the sales gain of not just Chrysler, but Toyota, Nissan, and other foreign brands? Cars!!

Ford's biggest bright spot in cars is the Mustang and to a lesser extent the FiveHundred, their newest. GM's? Cadillac (which is relatively all new across the board, save the DeVille) and the Impala (which comes with enough bribe money on the hood to seriously dent it).

It not that Nissan or Toyota are the bad guys here (most of their big sellers are made here in the USA!). It's that our own domestic industry went chasing after SUVs and either ignored cars or looked at them as basic appliences. To this very day, they are even still marketing them as such. Pretty soon, you'll have coupons in the Pennysaver or the Sunday paper.

That is, except for Chrysler.

I am continually amazed at how little most people know about how the economy works.

We have been running trade deficits for decades. If they are really so bad, why are we not all broke as a nation?

2. Reasons. 1. Wealth Creation. The US economy creates value because of our industries. Information, technology, we generate things that are worth something and that makes up for the cash that we bleed.

2. and more important than #1, Foreign re-investment. Sure the profits go back to Japan, but they spend that money back here building billion dollar manufacturing plants and bidding out supplier contracts and employing blue collar workers in fairly high-wage jobs.

Go to Smyrna TN and tell the thousands that work for Nissan there plus the thousands more that work at supplier companies that buying Japanese hurts America.

Same thing With Wal-mart. I hate all the wal-mart bashing going on out there, becaue most of it is based in myth. Yes a lot of stuff from wal-mart comes from China, because it can be made cheaply. Would you rather buy a Vacuum cleaner worth $100 for $80 at Wal-mart made in China or would you rather buy a $100 vacuum for $180 made in Alabama?

Ban foreign production and all the sudden your standard of living drops massively because your cost of living went up 200%. Then companies are going broke because they can't sell their now-overpriced products, laying workers off, who can't afford to live because the cost of living went up. So how does that help America?

Cheap stuff means a higher standard of living for everybody. I can save 20% on my groceries at Wal-mart vs. a regular grocery. That's like a $100 raise per month...just like my boss giving me $1200 a year more. That kind of real buying power increase helps lower income people more than upper income people because a greater percentage of a lower-income person's money will go to essential goods.

Can you even comprehend what Wal-Mart has done for the U.S retaill industry? People cry about Wallyworld destroying mom & pop stores but the truth is 75% of Wal-Mart employees get benefits and in most rural communities they actually INCREASE average wages when a new Wallyworld opens.

Wal-marts distribution technologies have revamped the whole industry as other companies have copied their techniques. The US Military has even copied some of the technology interms of logistics management. When a new store gets built, construction firms make money, Housecleaning companies get nice contracts to clean stores. There is so much money trickling down from walmart out into the economy it would boggle your mind.

But that's the problem with economics, nobody ever sees the complete picture, so they form flawed conclusions.

Everybody whines about outsourcing. One notable economist said that outsourcing is vital because the kinds of jobs that usually get outsourced are lower wage or lower value jobs, which frees up labor force in the U.S. to go into newer, higher value/higher wage industries. At 5.4% unemployment (Remember, classical economics says 5% unemployment is considered full employment...too hard to dip below 5%) you have to ship some jobs overseas to free up workforce for new jobs.

Wal-mart employees are the indentured servants of the modern era...the employees don't get a living wage, and Wal-mart has gone to some pretty distressing lengths to squash any kind of organizing (ironically, they are so eager to stake a claim to the Chinese marketplace, they will let Chinese workers organize)

and when Wal-mart opens in some rural backwater, the profits are not, i repeat, NOT recirculated in the local community, whereas the local mom and pop places did...Every dollar they make goes back to Bentonville for one purpose only: to create more wal-marts in other places

:no: Stupid consumers.

Why do I get the feeling that some suit at GM is saying this exact thing? Too much money for too little value on uninspiring cars throughout 90% of the line, and it's the consumer's fault for not buying it?

Hopefully GM will get their act together on this stuff. Otherwise I predict another year of losing share.

Jobs are actually coming back here from India.
Wrong. I work in the IT consulting industry (quite possibly the biggest culprit for offshoring) and outsourcing to Indians is ACCELERATING. A lot. You don't need to look hard to learn that: http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,96696,00.html

Wrong. I work in the IT consulting industry (quite possibly the biggest culprit for offshoring) and outsourcing to Indians is ACCELERATING. A lot. You don't need to look hard to learn that: http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,96696,00.html

Rising Wages in India threatening Outsourcing Market:

http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/specials/outsourcing/0,39026381,39150917,00.htm

Bangalore has two things working against it right now. One, as Chris pointed out, the demand for programmers is so high and jobs so plentiful that wages are rising quickly. Dont like working at Potani? Go down the block to Oracle and demand a little more money. They'll pay it. But Jim is still right that the money they make is still semi-trivial compared to an American programmer. I know last year it cost about $20/hr for off-shore development, that's a far cry from $40-50+/hr for a comparable entry level American - and lets not get ahead of ourself and say the code comming back from India is good, because it's not. So you have to look at that and say "is it worth it to pay a guy $20 more an hour for the same job?"

What are the benefits of hiring the American?
1. He/she probably speaks english as a first language.
2. The engineering who's worked 20 years at the same job will talk to 100 Americans before he talks to an Indian.
3. They're in the same timezone. I didnt realize how much of a problem this was until I was getting up at 5:30 to be in meetings at 7:00 because that was like 3:00 pm off-shore.

The second thing going against Bangalore is it's infrastructure. A Brother that lives on campus (ex-president of the university) spent the summer in Bangalore and said their roads, sewers, water lines, power - etc couldnt handle the explosion of jobs and population. Evidently the city is not the nicest place in the world to live, which means to fix it they're going to need more money - more money means more taxes - more taxes means overhead cost per hour has gone up so an American company pays more for off-shore development.

I guess it's capitalism's way of evening everything out. But as programming jobs are influx, we'll still need people to manage both on and off shore teams. That's a whole other can of worms you dont want me to be on my soap-box on :)

One thing the article I posted says is that the expected savings in outsourcing has gone from 50% to 10-20%. At that level, its much less attractive to move operations to India and have to deal with time zone differences, language problems, etc. In that light, companies will probably choose to keep operations here or find some other new place to send stuff off too, until that place's costs rise as well.

If you leave it alone, the free market usually finds an equillibrium, but too many have been taught to fear unfettered capitalism to trust it. Not saying we shouldn't protect individual rights from corporate abuses at all, but mucking with supply & demand through tariffs and restrictions almost never works out for the better.

One thing the article I posted says is that the expected savings in outsourcing has gone from 50% to 10-20%.
Being gainfully employed in the industry, I strongly disagree with the 10-20% number. It's WAY higher than that. I can tell you right now that every single project we bid on has to compete with and/or integrate with offshore companies.

Wal-mart employees are the indentured servants of the modern era...the employees don't get a living wage, and Wal-mart has gone to some pretty distressing lengths to squash any kind of organizing (ironically, they are so eager to stake a claim to the Chinese marketplace, they will let Chinese workers organize)

and when Wal-mart opens in some rural backwater, the profits are not, i repeat, NOT recirculated in the local community, whereas the local mom and pop places did...Every dollar they make goes back to Bentonville for one purpose only: to create more wal-marts in other places

I disagree.

I live in one of those smaller rural communities that has a super Walmart. This is a community of 14,000, and Walmart alone has employed over 150 people. The majority of these people have benefits (appx 75%). Local companies built the Walmart, and local services service it. The local people who got jobs there are guaranteed job security, and the majority of them have benefits, in an age where more and more companies are dropping their benefits (Me and my son have none).

Talk to the actual employees, and see how they like their jobs, and Walmart. This would really open your eyes. The majority of them love their jobs, as Walmart is very family oriented, and very good to work for. They actually treat their employees with respect, and as an extended family.

Their wages are not high (at least not on the bottom rung), but have allowed alot of these people to have a good standard of living.

While Walmart may put some mom and pop operations out of business, it is not as much as you may think. The majority of small business failures in small communities is bad management, and a lack of a true understanding of the economy in their area. Here in Payson, the busy season is from spring to fall. Other than that, it is dead. People open business's in March, and then fold in December because they did not anticipate the lack of winter customers.

I have seen it time and time again here.

Our super Home Depot is under construction right now. It will also employ 150 people, and the majority will also have benefits. There are 3 hardware stores here currently. For the most part they rape the locals with their pricing, which makes many of them head for the Phx Metro area to shop (about 80 miles away). This actually takes money away from the local economy, as they purchase food, fuel, and other things while down there.

My husband is looking to get on to work at Walmart as a truck driver. It is VERY difficult to get a job with them, as they are VERY picky about who they hire, and very few people quit (most who work their consider it their last job). However, for $80K a year, and excellent benefits, it is worth the difficulty.

Oh, btw, as a sign that Fords recovery is working.......... Ford brand cars were up 3% in sales in December. This is the first increase in sales for Ford cars all year. This coincides with better availability of new car models.

Also, the Ford brand had an overall increase of 2% for December.

This says that as Ford starts to give more attention to Mercury and Lincoln, that their sales will start to increase also.

How did Chevrolet do sales wise???

I disagree.

I live in one of those smaller rural communities that has a super Walmart. This is a community of 14,000, and Walmart alone has employed over 150 people. The majority of these people have benefits (appx 75%). Local companies built the Walmart, and local services service it. The local people who got jobs there are guaranteed job security, and the majority of them have benefits, in an age where more and more companies are dropping their benefits (Me and my son have none).

Talk to the actual employees, and see how they like their jobs, and Walmart. This would really open your eyes. The majority of them love their jobs, as Walmart is very family oriented, and very good to work for. They actually treat their employees with respect, and as an extended family.

Their wages are not high (at least not on the bottom rung), but have allowed alot of these people to have a good standard of living.

While Walmart may put some mom and pop operations out of business, it is not as much as you may think. The majority of small business failures in small communities is bad management, and a lack of a true understanding of the economy in their area. Here in Payson, the busy season is from spring to fall. Other than that, it is dead. People open business's in March, and then fold in December because they did not anticipate the lack of winter customers.

I have seen it time and time again here.

Our super Home Depot is under construction right now. It will also employ 150 people, and the majority will also have benefits. There are 3 hardware stores here currently. For the most part they rape the locals with their pricing, which makes many of them head for the Phx Metro area to shop (about 80 miles away). This actually takes money away from the local economy, as they purchase food, fuel, and other things while down there.

My husband is looking to get on to work at Walmart as a truck driver. It is VERY difficult to get a job with them, as they are VERY picky about who they hire, and very few people quit (most who work their consider it their last job). However, for $80K a year, and excellent benefits, it is worth the difficulty.

I don't know if i should admit this :o ;) , but two of my last 3 girlfriends were wal-mart employees (Norfolk/Va. Beach, Va), and my cousin had dated one back during our college days (Atlanta)...all in all i've known about 15 people that have worked there at some point in their lives, and only 1-2 had anything good to say about it

The discussion was about the rural communities. Sorry I didn't specify.

There is a big difference. In a small rural area like this, finding a job with security and benefits is next to impossible.

This is probably a major factor in the like/dislike of employees. In the major cities, there are all kinds of employment opportunities. Also, the employee makeup is entirely different also. In the big cities, due to the wages, you will find alot of young people working there. Here in small area, we have alot of older people working there. The older people have more realistic expectations when it comes to jobs, due to their experience. Young people have a tendency to think they should get everything for nothing.

Do realize that the above is a generalization, and does not relect the attitudes of all young people. However, it certainly is reflective of many.

Thanks to LightningGal for bringing some balance to the wallyword debate.

As for the original subject of this thread, Guy is dead on. GM must get its act together and start building great cars again or the market share is going to continue to dive. The SUV craze has saturated I believe and there's no more share to be gained there.

Oh, btw, as a sign that Fords recovery is working.......... Ford brand cars were up 3% in sales in December. This is the first increase in sales for Ford cars all year. This coincides with better availability of new car models.

Also, the Ford brand had an overall increase of 2% for December.

This says that as Ford starts to give more attention to Mercury and Lincoln, that their sales will start to increase also.

How did Chevrolet do sales wise???

Chevrolet sold 2,763,238 vehicles in 2004.
Ford sold 2,778,678.

Vehicle to vehicle sales:
Impala vs Taurus:
290,259 vs 248,148

Mustang vs Monte Carlo (Mustang was out of production 3 months this year):
129,858 vs 57,679 :eek:

Cavalier vs Focus:
195,275 vs 208,339

Thunderbird vs Corvette:
11,998 vs 35,276

And in case some of you others were wondering:
GM still sold 127 new Camaros, 206 Auroras, 5 Chevy Prizms, & 109 Firebirds. All long discontinued.

GM's best selling cars: Impala at #1. Cavalier at 195,275 was #2. The new Malibu was 3rd at 179,806 (Classics still sold 88,211)

Ford's: Taurus #1, #2 Focus at 208,339. Third was Mustang ( :alert: ) at 129,858. Not bad for a car that missed production 1/4 of the year. :)

Monte Carlo is below Camaro's approx 60,000 mark when Camaro was such a bad seller. And they haven't yanked Monte advertising...

Which is why I think its a mistake to change the Camaro formula too radically. The perceived poor sales were not nearly as bad as we were led to believe. First, advertizing ceased completely, that had to hurt. Second, even w/o ads, Camaro and Firebird were still near 100,000K units annually during the last couple of years. Poor sales was a manufactured situation.

All we really need is an updated, modern take on the original pony car idea and a freaking advertising budget!

The discussion was about the rural communities. Sorry I didn't specify.

There is a big difference. In a small rural area like this, finding a job with security and benefits is next to impossible.

This is probably a major factor in the like/dislike of employees. In the major cities, there are all kinds of employment opportunities. Also, the employee makeup is entirely different also. In the big cities, due to the wages, you will find alot of young people working there. Here in small area, we have alot of older people working there. The older people have more realistic expectations when it comes to jobs, due to their experience. Young people have a tendency to think they should get everything for nothing.

Do realize that the above is a generalization, and does not relect the attitudes of all young people. However, it certainly is reflective of many.

I have plenty of friends who are working internship/entry-levels jobs in Boston, New York or London. Not a single one is making a real living or has a halfway decent lifestyle. For people that are no longer under 25, that's pretty embarrassing. The sad truth is that it's pretty hard to make a living these days, and despite the admonitions of our elders, the babyboomers had it easier.

Monte Carlo is below Camaro's approx 60,000 mark when Camaro was such a bad seller. And they haven't yanked Monte advertising...

Which is why I think its a mistake to change the Camaro formula too radically. The perceived poor sales were not nearly as bad as we were led to believe. First, advertizing ceased completely, that had to hurt. Second, even w/o ads, Camaro and Firebird were still near 100,000K units annually during the last couple of years. Poor sales was a manufactured situation.

All we really need is an updated, modern take on the original pony car idea and a freaking advertising budget!


So true.

Monte Carlo is below Camaro's approx 60,000 mark when Camaro was such a bad seller. And they haven't yanked Monte advertising...

Which is why I think its a mistake to change the Camaro formula too radically. The perceived poor sales were not nearly as bad as we were led to believe. First, advertizing ceased completely, that had to hurt. Second, even w/o ads, Camaro and Firebird were still near 100,000K units annually during the last couple of years. Poor sales was a manufactured situation.

All we really need is an updated, modern take on the original pony car idea and a freaking advertising budget!

No, the MN12 Thunderbird was killed due to a manufactured reason: Poor Sales, and a falling coupe market. Consider: The Thunderbird was outselling the Monte Carlo (approx 70,000 cars annually) when it was killed, and had a high customer satisfaction for quality at a time GM seemed to be letting their cars go to pot.

It was relatively expensive to produce, but Ford wasn't losing money on it. Ford simply wanted to boost the sales of it's relatively ugly but huge profit margined Lincoln Mark VIII, and figured that killing the lower margin 'Bird was the way to boost sluggish sales. Guess a better design didn't cross their minds.



The Camaro's last full calender year of productiuon (2001) only 35,453 were sold. 25,743 Firebirds were sold that year. Combined that's just 61,196.

Unlike the Camaro & Firebird, the Monte Carlo is made on the same assembly line that produces at least half million other GM cars with the same chassis & components, not a separate underutilized factory (capable of making 200,000 cars per year!) with it's own chassis and components shared with no other car.

Also, Monte Carlo has a whole market to itself (low & modest priced full sized coupes). Monte is also a single car with single marketing costs, also UNlike the f-body twins. With 4500+ Chevy dealers, each dealer sold only 7 Camaros per year, average to Ford dealer's roughly 35 Mustangs per year at 4,000 dealers or less.

There was a ton of reasons why the Camaro and Firebird died. Ever since I researched that story and came across all the strikes against the cars, I'll say this a hundred times, it's a profound credit to Redplanet and the guys attached to the Camaro program that the Camaro (and Firebird) lasted as long as it did!

By right, it would have died alot earlier.

OK, you are right as usual Guy :bow:

That's what I get for pulling production numbers out of my cob-webbed brain then drawing conclusions based on my faulty memory!

The underutilized factory is a great point... Sharing a platform with more than one other car, like it presumably would do on Zeta, should help rectify that, and present a business case with a much lower sales number needed to be worthwile.

OK, you are right as usual Guy :bow:

That's what I get for pulling production numbers out of my cob-webbed brain then drawing conclusions based on my faulty memory!

No, actually depending on where you live, there would be the illusion of the cars selling better than they actually did, so it's not you by a long shot. :)

When I lived in southern California, you'd think there was no trouble selling Camaros, they were everyplace. Yet, here in NorCal, it seems to be a rare occasion coming across a 4th gen. When I tried selling my '93 for just below book in the north, it didn't move for months. When I moved to San Diego, and put it up for sale, It was gone within 2 weeks.

On the flip side, you can't keep 5.0 Mustangs in the paper in the bay area, yet in San Diego & Los Angeles, it's a buyers market.

If I remember listening to Scott correctly some years ago, the only other really hot markets for Camaro towards the end outside So Cal were Florida and Texas.

The interior quality on the MN12s is fairly high for being a early 90's car. My roommate has a 91 Cougar XR7 and the interior has held up great. There are a few rattles but nothing too horrid. I actually grew up about 10 minutes from the Lorain assembly plant, it was a pretty good blow to the local economy when the MN12 line moved out, now they're moving the Econoline manuf. out, too. Tis a dying city.

If I remember listening to Scott correctly some years ago, the only other really hot markets for Camaro towards the end outside So Cal were Florida and Texas.

I still shoulda remembered the final year production numbers better!

But anyway, TX and FL would make a lot of sense. TX particularly, since it seemed to be a hotbed of F-body performance in terms of speed shops and such, particularly in the Houston area. Still is I guess.