Level of disgust poll

How disgusted is everyone over this whole Camaro thing?

Even if a Zeta coupe comes by '08, it may merely be a "Chevy GTO", rather than our sporty ponycar, and not even named Camaro.

I know I'm getting disgusted.

these people are practically BEGGING me to make my next purchase anything but GM :rolleyes:

I am quite unhappy about the whole ordeal.

Disgust will turn to total boredom by mid 2005. And by 2006 very few will care whether there is a new Camaro coming or not.

Right now "I am slightly disgusted"

But that can all change with some good news.
But with bad news I can be moved right up to I am at maximum disgust!

Lets just say, right now I'm saving up for a car. And I change my mind every month on what I want. But right now I'm pretty sure its going to be a C5. And pretty much the only thing that would change my mind now would be a great 5th gen with a V8 and T-tops.

Maximum disgust, I see a Dodge Magnum in my future, not a Trans Am. Not only has Camaro been MIA for years now (and for at least a couple more), a Firebird is nowhere in sight but hey we can get a 4-cylinder Solstice next year. GM's only hope is if my wife can convince me to buy an STS for her.

My wife wants one last sporty car before we start to breed and I am sorry to say that there is only one hey look at me car on the market in our income bracket. I have been to the dealer and they will be calling me the day the boss says he can sell one for invoice, I assume by next fall I will have a Mustang beside my Camaro. Unless of course there is just more than this glimmer of hope we are all holding on to. This is not a threat just fact, our current car has 120,000 on it and needs to go down the road, and there is only one replacment on the dealer lots. :(

Chevy better have a coupe v8 rwd coupe out before 08 or it will be 2 little 2 late.

Anything after early spring 2007 and there better be a $5,000 Camaro loyalty rebate for those that are still driving their 4th Gen and waiting for a new Camaro.

I'm probably going to be looking for a used C6 come 2007

Since Camaro and Firebird died... I bought the Monte Carlo SS because there was little else out there I liked. Mustang was ancient, so I didn't want it.

I stuck with GM, because they have always treated me as well as one can expect.

Then I got the GTO... though for the first time I was really tempted to go away from GM. The new Mustang offers alot for the money, but the rebates on GTO FINALLY came into play, and I still have the whole retro thing with the Mustang.

When it comes time for me to turn in the GTO lease... we'l have to see what is offered. In all honesty, I'm sure I'll find something I like in GM's lineup...

I voted moderately, but that has more to do with the death and no forseeable return of the Firebird rather than the death of the Camaro and it's possible delayed return.

Is today the official Camaro anxiety attack day or something? 2 threads about feelings of either indifference or disgust about the future of the camaro.

The Camaro may be better off gone. When something comes out, give it a new name.

When it comes time for me to turn in the GTO lease... we'l have to see what is offered. In all honesty, I'm sure I'll find something I like in GM's lineup...

How much a month is a lease for a GTO?

How much a month is a lease for a GTO?


Paying $239.xx per month... 24months/24000 miles... Nothing down but the rebates and my GM Card money... tax title and first month payment were even included in what I put down.

Can't beat that with the proverbial stick.

Paying $239.xx per month... 24months/24000 miles... Nothing down but the rebates and my GM Card money... tax title and first month payment were even included in what I put down.

Can't beat that with the proverbial stick.

Thats a great price. I'm looking to get a $22,000 used C5 in a few years, and even with $10,000 its still $271 a month.

Lets hope the 5th gen is great and has a good lease price like that, and then maybey all be pimpin' a brand new car in 2007.

Is today the official Camaro anxiety attack day or something? 2 threads about feelings of either indifference or disgust about the future of the camaro.

:lol: Yup. :thumb: Next we'll start to see the "Discusted of being discusted about no news from GM regarding the possible new Camaro." etc. threads. :lol:

Hell yeah I'm disappointed that the F-body went away, but I am sure we'll hear something from GM when ever they are ready to say something. If that causes people to be disgusted, jump to the other side of the fence or what ever, then so be it.

I'm keeping my faith.

TS

Im not disgusted at it. GM wouldnt be talking about the next gen even if there is currently a Camaro there and everyone knows for an absolute fact that a new one is coming, GM would still not be talking. Its a business, dont worry. keep the faith. I am

F* The faith. Its a god damb car not freaking church!!!!

GOD spoke to me in a dream and said there will be no new Camaro! :rolleyes:

Keep that faith LOL!!!



Any Camaro that GM makes wont be a "real camaro" :rolleyes: :cry: :death:

I'm in the maximum disgust to the point I'm just about not to care anymore. Those that have been here awhile know we have been hearing/following the discontinuation of the Camaro for about 5 years now with no "solid" info on a new one coming.

Lol. Moderate disgusted. Keeping the faith but it's fricken' hard work. I don't want a Chevelle or GTO or whatever else. Camaro (or Firebird) or nothing.
Given that GM moves rather slowly, I'll give them 'til some autoshow in Jan '06 to give us an announcement from the top that the Camaro is definately comming back. After than, I will give up completely on GM and buy a new F**D M**t**g.

wait...why are we disgusted? In the overall manner that GM is keeping a lid on this? On the chassis its going to be made on? What?
I dont even know what you guys are mad about?

and 239 a month for a GTO!!!! WTF!!
Im paying 250 a month with nothing down by my old POS Taurus for 48 months....I set that up so that I could drop off teh Maxx, and pick up my Camaro....if that still happens. If not, Ill just buy the Maxx, trade it in for a GTO or whatever is there.

What amazes me is that we are in another high peformence era, just like the late 1960's. So what does GM do? It cancels the Camaro and Firebird, and makes the buyers wait years for a new one to come out. All the while people are jumping ship to Evos, STi's, Mustangs, Neons, and other sport compacts.

So GM attempts to plug the hole by giving us the GTO. The GTO is a very nice, awesomly quick car, but leaves much to be desired from a style standpoint. It also amazes me that GM is such a huge company, they can't offer more sporty products.


I have faith that GM will give a new Camaro, along with some other kick butt RWD V8 cars. But I am extremely disgusted that they have left the enthusiast market high and dry in the new musclecar era.

I am disgusted with everyone here thinking that GM should drop whatever they are doing, and bring out a car into a market that hasnt seen much growth just to please a very small group of enthusistas.
On one side of the coin, we demand for GM to bring us a Camaro at any cost and that it must have X and Y...on the other side, we bash GM for not doing more to compete with Toyota, and other companies eatting away at GM's makret share.
IMO, GM's biggest problem is Toyota. Thats what they need to worry about. If you cant stand GM, then fine. Buy a Mustang. It only takes a handful of bolt ons to make it as fast as your Fbodies.
GM needs to worry about Toyota and they need to make cars to start turning people away from thoes dealerships, and brings them into more of GM's. Forget the Camaro till, work on the cars that turn the tide, and then as a reward, bring out a Camaro to crown GM's turn around. Now THAT is what I want.

On one side of the coin, we demand for GM to bring us a Camaro at any cost and that it must have X and Y...on the other side, we bash GM for not doing more to compete with Toyota, and other companies eatting away at GM's makret share.


GM is the largest automotive company in the world. You act as if competing with Toyota and selling us a Camaro are mutually exclusive goals.

GM ought to be able to both walk AND chew gum at the same time.

....trade it in for a GTO or whatever is there...

In all honesty, I'm sure I'll find something I like in GM's lineup...

Wasn't there a time when GM's car lineup was exciting, and not something we had to settle for? Even Darth and Big Al, who are GM blooded, don't sound enthused about the car line. It's just sad to see a car maker that used to be the biggest AND the best become the biggest and the blandest. =\

I am disgusted with everyone here thinking that GM should drop whatever they are doing, and bring out a car into a market that hasnt seen much growth just to please a very small group of enthusistas.


Mustang sells what, 150k a year? The market for a sporty coupe under 30k is easily over 250k cars a year, and that's being stingy with numbers because I'm too lazy to look them up. GM SHOULD be trying to please us, AND the masses. Right now, with cars like the Malibu and Impala, and affordable performance options like.....nothing, they're pleasing no one.

But hey, they can just rely on truck/SUV sales forever, right? Japan will never get into that market.

Im not losing any sleep over it , but I am pretty disgusted that there isnt a camaro anywhere close to production amongst all the cool RWD performance cars on the horizon . Like I said before , if no new camaro is built or no news in the next couple years , I will just enjoy new projects with 3rd and 4th gens , at least then a firebird is an option :cool: And that will close the door on any possiblity of me shelling out the cash for brand new camaro should GM decide stay secret and spring it on at the last possible second . Unlike just trading in a daily driver , once you start a project and start getting money wrapped up in it , it almost impossible to re-coupe cash investment . If I dump $20K into my version of the perfect do all 3rd gen , do you really think Im gonna wanna bail on it for new camaro I wasnt expecting , but wanted .

Thats why I wish to hell GM would not be so damn secret , throw us some kind of bone . I am really putting off things I want to do car wise to see if a new camaro comes along . Throw us a bone , you dont even have to give any info about it . Just a yes there definately be one , or no there wont .

GM has some great cars right now. G6 is terrific, and the additions of a coupe, convertible, if you have not sat in a Cobalt yet, wait until you do, Equinox is great, etc.

But these are not all that exciting, save an all out Supercharged Cobalt SS or a GTP 6 speed G6. We need something with some flair. Solstice will help a ton, but we need more...

I would love Pontiac to get a 2 door Pursuit and tart it up a little...that would be sweet :)

And oh yeah, my level of disgust is growing, but can easily be reigned in by the IROC purchase I am always babbling about. Good for me and my wallet, bad for GM.

I don't really care if GM starts going downhill as a company, because then they will become smaller, then they will start operating more efficiently.. I hope... :rolleyes:

But yeah I had just learned what a camaro and firebird where, then 2 months later I found out they were discoutinued :eek:

It was like finding free money on the road, then just as you go to pick it up someone takes it, rips it up, and feeds it to their dog.

And oh yeah, my level of disgust is growing, but can easily be reigned in by the IROC purchase I am always babbling about. Good for me and my wallet, bad for GM.


That medicine won't work for me. I've got a mint IROC in the garage, and my disgust is only growing. :mad:

Wasn't there a time when GM's car lineup was exciting, and not something we had to settle for? Even Darth and Big Al, who are GM blooded, don't sound enthused about the car line. It's just sad to see a car maker that used to be the biggest AND the best become the biggest and the blandest. =\

I dont belive I got my point across. Its not that I am not enthusiastic. Its just that there very well could be other things out there from GM that ISNT a Camaro. Be it a GTO, a RWD LS2 powerd Zeta sedan, or whatever else there is. Thats a lot more then what I can say about Ford. Two cars to look foward too, and one of them is beyond most of our pockets. If you dont like the Mustang, what else is there for you at Ford? 500 with its 200hp Duratec engine? Hyrbid Escape? No more L...so what else is there? Maybe the much hyped SVT Fusion in 9 years. Whatever floats your boat...but right now, DCX and GM look to have the rides.

Is GM perfect? No. Can GM walk and chew gum at the same time? Not right now it cant. It has been beat down for almost 20 years now, and it needs to get back up and get into the fight. It needs to refocus its efforts into cars and trucks. Make them better. Then when everyone comes back to GM, spoil them with cars like the Camaro, and other hot rodded cars.

Dont like it? Cant wait? Disguested? Buy a Mustang. What else can I say. Sales of GM's new cars are up, and GM is slowly moving the old stuff out of the back door. Once the tide has turned, I expect to see a different GM.

al, why does it seem you always compare GM to the ford brand, and yet take for granted Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Volvo, Aston Martin, and Land Rover? I mean if you going to compare, then at least compare Ford to Chevy, lol. Fact is, GM which is the biggest car company, doesnt have anything really exciting for the main stream. Why is it that Nissan can have every car be exciting, and in every flavor, yet GM the biggest corp cant? Lutz is not doing much to change it, hell, even in some interview, he said he would not approve the 300 if he was ceo of chrysler. lol.

On a side note, i forgot that there will be a 5th gen, quite frankly, it doesnt matter anymore anyway, there are better buys out there, and in every flavor. Maybe with some rebates, lol,

If GM wants to lose customers, so be it. There's still plenty of Camaros out there I can play with and make better than GM did anyway. :)

There needs to be a complete changeover in advance vehicle platform designers at GM. Where are the Bill Mitchell's and Jerry Palmer's of today? Everyone likes to rave about how good the new C6 looks, but to me it looks like a chopped off C5.

The current Impala is an abomination of that famous nameplate. The "Orca the Whale" version's from the mid '90's left alot to be desired too. However, at least they were RWD and had the Corvette derived LT1 in them. Can you imagine a new Impala SS with RWD, a slightly detuned version of the LS2 and a good looking jaw-dropping design? That car would fly off the Chevy lots.

I'll say it again, GM needs a KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF design for the 5th gen. Not futuristic spaceship style. Not old school retro, but a modern classic that'll look good 20-years later. Everything has to be right. The 5th gen needs to be the 3rd gen and/or 2nd gen of the 21st century. A modern contemporary classic.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a modern contemporary classic design from GM in many years. Whenever they do come up with a new design, they goof it up somewhere along the way. Maybe it's better not having the Camaro return for a 5th time. Let them call the new performance coupe the Chevelle and just leave it at that.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a modern contemporary classic design from GM in many years. Whenever they do come up with a new design, they goof it up somewhere along the way. Maybe it's better not having the Camaro return for a 5th time. Let them call the new performance coupe the Chevelle and just leave it at that.

Agreed, except don't call it Chevelle. Give it a new name.

Are you disgusted waiting for Christmas morning too? Instead of being P.O.'d @ G.M. for all the secrecy, you should be excited as to what all the secrecy is for. I think there has been enough suggested here by people "in the know" to be very optimistic about the Camaro coming back. Obviously GM has something big in the works for the Camaro or there would be more info leaking out. Even if you take the CAW issue out of it there would still be more info coming out in a normal program (I don't recall this level of hush-hush over the Malibu or Colbalt). I think we will all be getting a late Christmas present at the 2007 IAS.

Are you disgusted waiting for Christmas morning too? Instead of being P.O.'d @ G.M. for all the secrecy, you should be excited as to what all the secrecy is for. I think there has been enough suggested here by people "in the know" to be very optimistic about the Camaro coming back. Obviously GM has something big in the works for the Camaro or there would be more info leaking out. Even if you take the CAW issue out of it there would still be more info coming out in a normal program (I don't recall this level of hush-hush over the Malibu or Colbalt). I think we will all be getting a late Christmas present at the 2007 IAS.

Sadly though , the people in the know seem to be as confused now after learning the Zeta coupe is not looking to be a Camaro everyone though it would be . All the Torana info is pure guesses . Christmas reliably comes around once a year , whats there to be distgusted about ;)

I'm to the point where I don't care anymore. In 4-5 years hopefully the c7 will be out and look good or I'll buy a used c5 or gto.

Are you disgusted waiting for Christmas morning too? Instead of being P.O.'d @ G.M. for all the secrecy, you should be excited as to what all the secrecy is for. I think there has been enough suggested here by people "in the know" to be very optimistic about the Camaro coming back. Obviously GM has something big in the works for the Camaro or there would be more info leaking out. Even if you take the CAW issue out of it there would still be more info coming out in a normal program (I don't recall this level of hush-hush over the Malibu or Colbalt). I think we will all be getting a late Christmas present at the 2007 IAS.

Maybe more a matter of IF Christmas morning will come EVER. And if it comes, it might just be Halloween, disguised as Christmas.

Sadly though , the people in the know seem to be as confused now after learning the Zeta coupe is not looking to be a Camaro everyone though it would be . All the Torana info is pure guesses . Christmas reliably comes around once a year , whats there to be distgusted about ;)

Yep.

I love my 4th gens and the community that goes with them.

Other than that, GM is a business and I'm a consumer. If GM as a business offers what I as a consumer want in a vehicle when I'm in the market (and they have the advantage of the earnings on my GM card), great. If not, hopefully another business does. I'm no longer as blindly loyal to GM as I once was, though in all honesty it is not primarily because of the Camaro hiatus.

al, why does it seem you always compare GM to the ford brand, and yet take for granted Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Volvo, Aston Martin, and Land Rover? I mean if you going to compare, then at least compare Ford to Chevy, lol. Fact is, GM which is the biggest car company, doesnt have anything really exciting for the main stream. Why is it that Nissan can have every car be exciting, and in every flavor, yet GM the biggest corp cant? Lutz is not doing much to change it, hell, even in some interview, he said he would not approve the 300 if he was ceo of chrysler. lol.

On a side note, i forgot that there will be a 5th gen, quite frankly, it doesnt matter anymore anyway, there are better buys out there, and in every flavor. Maybe with some rebates, lol,

Ah, you grabbed the bait...

Well, I compare GM to Ford because everyone here usualy throwns out "well, I can buy a Mustang, where is my Camaro."
Why cant everyone compare the Mustang to something else? Why cant people say, "I want a Charger coupe NOW!!" or "Where is my 350Z V8(450Z i guess?)" So why do I get picked on when I compare GM to Ford?
Lutz's cars are just coming out, and they are all looking top notch. LaCrosse, Cobalt, and his hands have touched the STS, C6, G6, and probably a few other cars, not to mention Solstice. How come the Razor concept wasnt approved over at DCX? What, they cant make a sporty afforable roadster? GM can.

As for comparing it to other Ford divisions....why?
Merc? Its just a bunch of rebadged Fords. Nothing there
Linc...please.
Volvo? Not much there except for the 300hp turbo cars, which IMO are very cool, but you dont hear a single word about them. I dont see them in comparos, I dont see reviews. I havent seen them on the road, and I havent driven one. So I really dont know what ot say.
Mazda...Ford only owns part. If you want to bring in Mazda, I can bring in Subbie and there long line of turbo awd cars.
Aston Martain....I love thoes cars. But hey, unless you are Ferrari, GM isnt really scared, nor do they care. IMO, I wish that GM would use some of the european GT cars as design basis for the Camaro...but no one likes that idea. God forbid if the car is sexy....
Land Rover...the LR3 is nice looking, but they recently have had a very long streak of building crap. Half of the car still uses BMW parts!!

GM's size isnt its stregth when it comes down to getting product out there. Everyone can work faster then GM, and it shows. But GM is like a big a$$ steam locamotive...once it gets going, its hard to stop. Lets just hope its pointed in the right direction. After looking at 3 of there new entries, the LaCrosse, Uplander, and Cobalt, it seems that GM is FINALY getting to understand interiors!!

Ah, you grabbed the bait...

Well, I compare GM to Ford because everyone here usualy throwns out "well, I can buy a Mustang, where is my Camaro."
Why cant everyone compare the Mustang to something else? Why cant people say, "I want a Charger coupe NOW!!" or "Where is my 350Z V8(450Z i guess?)" So why do I get picked on when I compare GM to Ford?
Lutz's cars are just coming out, and they are all looking top notch. LaCrosse, Cobalt, and his hands have touched the STS, C6, G6, and probably a few other cars, not to mention Solstice. How come the Razor concept wasnt approved over at DCX? What, they cant make a sporty afforable roadster? GM can.

As for comparing it to other Ford divisions....why?
Merc? Its just a bunch of rebadged Fords. Nothing there
Linc...please.
Volvo? Not much there except for the 300hp turbo cars, which IMO are very cool, but you dont hear a single word about them. I dont see them in comparos, I dont see reviews. I havent seen them on the road, and I havent driven one. So I really dont know what ot say.
Mazda...Ford only owns part. If you want to bring in Mazda, I can bring in Subbie and there long line of turbo awd cars.
Aston Martain....I love thoes cars. But hey, unless you are Ferrari, GM isnt really scared, nor do they care. IMO, I wish that GM would use some of the european GT cars as design basis for the Camaro...but no one likes that idea. God forbid if the car is sexy....
Land Rover...the LR3 is nice looking, but they recently have had a very long streak of building crap. Half of the car still uses BMW parts!!

GM's size isnt its stregth when it comes down to getting product out there. Everyone can work faster then GM, and it shows. But GM is like a big a$$ steam locamotive...once it gets going, its hard to stop. Lets just hope its pointed in the right direction. After looking at 3 of there new entries, the LaCrosse, Uplander, and Cobalt, it seems that GM is FINALY getting to understand interiors!!
Well, for one, Chrysler has confirmed the Charger. But I really don't see where your argument stands with comparing all of GM to one Ford division :think: The Mustang and Camaro have been rivals for decades now, that is why we compare them.

Mercury has a bunch of rebadged Fords in much the same way Pontiac has a bunch of rebadged Chevy's.

Why can't GM come out with a supercar? Ford can ;)

I love my 4th gens and the community that goes with them.

Other than that, GM is a business and I'm a consumer. If GM as a business offers what I as a consumer want in a vehicle when I'm in the market (and they have the advantage of the earnings on my GM card), great. If not, hopefully another business does. I'm no longer as blindly loyal to GM as I once was, though in all honesty it is not primarily because of the Camaro hiatus.

:bow: I think the last sentence is the most telling, for me personally. Maybe its because my parents bought an '03 Explorer Limited 2 summers ago that has proven to be flawless...their first ever Ford purchase and their first non-GM purchase since 1988. Of the 12 cars they have owned since 1975, 10 were GMs. The thought of buying another brand never really crossed their mind...an inferior trade value on their '01 GP GT by the local Chevy dealer on a TrailBlazer was the ONLY reason they happened to swing through the local Ford dealer.

Or, maybe its because of my banzai test drive in an SRT-4 last month...or my love of big, comfy, V8 vehicles such as a 300C. Or, my love of classy, sporty compact coupes...the Sebring Coupe is quite a nice car. All that I know is I will NEVER cross the line from domestic to import ownership...being an Economics major in college, I'm a firm believer in "taking care of your own." Although, can I even consider Chrysler domestic anymore anyways?

The Mustang looks good to me, the Focus looks great to me as a first new car for my girlfriend (although the Cobalt is #1 on the list), and there are a couple other non-GM choices out there that intrigue me more than they used to.

The moral of my personal story is that, my love of older GM cars such as 3rd gen F bodies and G bodies grows more every day, and my interest in their new offerings continues to decline, at least from a special-interest standpoint. A G6, Cobalt or Malibu make great daily drivers, but thats it. I will probably (thankfully) ALWAYS have 2 new GM daily drivers in my household, but my toys? I guess I'll be fishing eBay for IROCs and Monte SSs for the forseeable future...a GTO is simply too much $$. I can buy a mint IROC AND a mint '87-'88 Monte SS for less than the price of a new GTO!!

Z284ever,
I hope the prognosis is different for me :) However, I also hope I am not FORCED into the position of only buying an IROC, either!!

A Chevrolet GTO is just wrong...... :rolleyes:

Who says the Camaro has to look like a GTO?
And a Chevy GTO..or a Chevy Tempest/Lemans...which would mean Chevelle....cant be that wrong.

Well, for one, Chrysler has confirmed the Charger. But I really don't see where your argument stands with comparing all of GM to one Ford division :think: The Mustang and Camaro have been rivals for decades now, that is why we compare them.

Mercury has a bunch of rebadged Fords in much the same way Pontiac has a bunch of rebadged Chevy's.

Why can't GM come out with a supercar? Ford can ;)

Charger sedan has been confirmed...where is the coupe? Mustang and Camaro have been rivals, yeah....but there are now several other cars out there that now fit in.

Ahh...place a picture of a G6 next to a Malibu, Impala next to Grand Prix, and Monte next to last gens GP coupe....
Then compared the Taurus to Sable, Crown Vic to Grand Mk, 500 to Montego....I think I can stop. I belive your idea of rebadge is different then what the real deffinition is. Rebadge would just be removing one badge to place on another. Not that it uses the same chassis, or the same engines. Ford just removes badges off the Taurus, adds a Merc grill, different tail, and you got yourself a Sable.
Show me one pannel that would fit from G6 to Malibu, or the Maxx?

As for why cant GM build a supercar....because GM knows that spending billions in a single supercar from 40 years ago probably isnt the best move when there car and truck lines suck. But Im not GM...

Who says the Camaro has to look like a GTO?
And a Chevy GTO..or a Chevy Tempest/Lemans...which would mean Chevelle....cant be that wrong.

Maybe I should specify something,

A car CALLED a Chevrolet GTO is just wrong.

Charger sedan has been confirmed...
One more reason we shouldn't compare the Charger to the Camaro/Mustang :D

Ahh...place a picture of a G6 next to a Malibu, Impala next to Grand Prix, and Monte next to last gens GP coupe....
Then compared the Taurus to Sable, Crown Vic to Grand Mk, 500 to Montego....I think I can stop. I belive your idea of rebadge is different then what the real deffinition is. Rebadge would just be removing one badge to place on another. Not that it uses the same chassis, or the same engines. Ford just removes badges off the Taurus, adds a Merc grill, different tail, and you got yourself a Sable.
Show me one pannel that would fit from G6 to Malibu, or the Maxx?

Can't argue there :thumb: I've felt GM has done the best CAR rebadging jobs in the business since the 90's (trucks are a different story).

Still not rebadging. Reengineering, ok. Redesigning, alright. Using there power and making many cars off a flexable chassis...thats more what I was looking for.
As for rebadging trucks and suv's...name a company that doesnt? Even the almighty Toyota rebadges its SUV's to create Lexuses. So in that case, I dont bring in trucks, vans and suv's into the mix, because if a company has more then 1 of them, they are usualy a rebadge.

My wife and I were going to buy a 2002 Z28 or SS in 2003. Then we heard the GTO would be coming out so we held out a bit longer. Then we found out they weren't going to be available in Canada.

Then we heard the Camaro would be out in 2005 as a 2006 model or at the latest in the spring of 2006 as a 2007 model.

We're not going to hold our breath any longer. Whatever is available next summer as a 300+hp RWD car is what we will be buying. When and if the Camaro comes out next decade or whenever, will have to wait for when my unborn children can afford one.

I'm kind of frustrated that we dont know anything but like others have said, this is a business and one leak could be very harmful. I'm just hoping that GM/Chevy can pull off a 5th gen thats true to Camaro's roots. Hopefully if there is such a thing as a Team Camaro inside GM right now, I would think that these people would understand such matters.

Either way I'm not in the market at the moment so in all honesty it doesnt bother me to the point of disgust right now. When I go to make a new purchase here in a few years, then hopefully we'll see something. If not, theres plenty of other sports cars out there, including nice used Corvettes. Hopefully though, I'll be looking at new, rightly done Camaros.

I'm not disgusted in the very least at the whole thing. :)

One thing I've learned in this business is not to listen to every piece of info that comes my way, because I'll end up with headaches trying to figure out conflicting info.

There is alot of conflicting info coming out behind the scenes regarding the Zeta coupe, so what I have to do is resort to the knowledge of how things work behind the scenes.

When a new vehicle is proposed, all aspects of that vehicle as well as tons of research and studies are part of the case. This includes the market it's going after, it's basic configuration, etc.

If a vehicle is based on another chassis, it's hardpoints are already established, and it's just a matter of details such as styling, clinics, and available money.

There may be conflicting stories along the way because a company like GM is large and has plenty of fifedoms. The right hand doesn't know what the left's doing, the right foot thinks it know the direction things are going without realizing the left foot's leading the way, the body's laying down meanwhile, the heads along for the ride.

To most all of GM, the C5 virturally appeared out of thin air for final approval. The C6 was developed in a vaccuum. The Solstice for all intents and purposes was made completly outside of GM. The Colbalt was made within GM, but most of the accountants responsible for interior materials were unceremoniously run over. And lets not talk about about how many people swore the GTO wasn't going to happen right up till the car was in the showroom.

The point here is we have to filter out the excess noise, and realize that things are going to happen. The Zeta coupes WILL start showing up in showrooms in '07 or '08. There may be little dustups going on behind the scenes, but GM isn't going to discard the lessons learned with the Aztec and it hasn't forgotten the downside of dilluting vehicles to their lowest common denominator.

The Zeta coupe car isn't in chaos. Other divisions want to be a part of it, and other divisions are trying to change the direction of the car. But Pontiac and to a much greater degree, Chevrolet owns this game, and the other divisions will go with what these 2 have created.

Think of how the Cadillac XLR and the Chevrolet Corvette are different cars off the same body. Think of how the Ion and Cobalt coupe are very different cars on the same body. Thats what's in store for the Zeta coupes.

Trust me. It's not nearly as bad as it may seem. ;)

I'd say my level of frustration....not disgust....is more aimed at the fact that we even find ourselves in the position of...what seems to be...starting from scratch.

I mean, hell...they decided to kill our car in 1997 for crying out loud.......and we won't get one back until 2007!?!! That's ten fuggin' years!

Oh sure, we got cars until 2002.......but it takes five damned years to get back up and running?!??

Five years in this industry, these days is an eternity!

The lack of vision in the recent past at GM is staggering.....thank God it's been changed, but it's going to be a loooong cold (performance) winter at GM.....

Tonight my girlfriend and I stopped by a local Ford dealer...she hadn't seen a new Mustang yet. As we looked at a new red GT on the showroom floor, and as the same salesman who demoed an '04 GT with me a couple months back jabbered away in my ear, I realized something...

I really am not interested in a $25k+ GT model, for myself. I am extremely happy with my Z28 as a toy, and truly enjoy my Grand Prix, too. However, a $19,995 Premium 5 speed V6 for my girlfriend may literally be the best possible option as a first new car for my girlfriend. To think about it this way, I priced a Cobalt for her on GM's Auto Book dealership program...

$17,900 gets me an LS Sport 2 door with a stick, moonroof, ABS and power everything. Undoubtedly, when we're ready to buy next summer, the car will have at least a $1,000 rebate. So assume $16,900 for a Cobalt, or $19,900 for a Mustang. All I give up with the Mustang is ABS and the sunroof, but I gain a power seat, killer stereo, and the small fact that ITS A SPORTS CAR, not an econo-car...as nice of an econo car as the Cobalt is. A G6 base coupe (assuming the base coupe will exist...coupes may be only GT and up) will run even higher, about $22,000.

Moral of the story is, for $65/month over a Cobalt, and $40/month less than a G6 Coupe, my girlfriend can have a Mustang. I now understand fully how it was the Grand Am was the second choice to Mustang owners when Camaro was still around...in the marketplace, the 2 are more comparable than you might think.

I refuse to live with the retro for over $25k, but for $19,995 a Mustang premium V6 5 speed is one helluva fun, viable, AFFORDABLE option...

If I bring a Ford home next summer, my parents will never let me hear the end of it :D They bought a new "Exploder" 2 summers ago, and I've given them crap ever since :D

The Zeta coupes WILL start showing up in showrooms in '07 or '08.

Zeta coupes/convertibles are on the way...that's true. If you're hoping for a Camaro out of them, you'll be disappointed...for various reasons. I've been hearing this from a number of sources (and for a number of reasons). Maybe Doug can chime in here also....we were together on one encounter.


The Zeta coupe car isn't in chaos. Other divisions want to be a part of it, and other divisions are trying to change the direction of the car. But Pontiac and to a much greater degree, Chevrolet owns this game, and the other divisions will go with what these 2 have created


Pontiac seems to be wielding an inordinant amount of influence here. Chevy could virtually pull off this program on it's own without Pontiac or Buick, but Pontiac/Buick can't do it without Chevy's participation.

And yet, Pontiac seems to be calling most of the shots.

Zeta coupes/convertibles are on the way...that's true. If you're hoping for a Camaro out of them, you'll be disappointed...for various reasons.

And that is what continues to scare the living crap outta me...

THANK YOU GUY!!! I do think that Pontiac should have the focus of the Zeta cars, as well as Buick, and to a lesser extent...Chevy. Pontiac NEEDS RWD cars. Buick NEEDS a flexable RWD/AWD chassis to make silent luxury cars. Chevy doesnt NEED a RWD sedan. Chevy doesnt NEED a RWD coupe. It would be nice if they did have one.

Naming a 5th gen ANYTHING other than Camaro will be a b!tch slap in the face. I don't want a chevelle or whatever other name they'll conjure up from a 30+ year slumber :rolleyes:.

Zeta coupes/convertibles are on the way...that's true. If you're hoping for a Camaro out of them, you'll be disappointed...for various reasons. I've been hearing this from a number of sources (and for a number of reasons). Maybe Doug can chime in here also....we were together on one encounter.

Not expecting anything other than a V8 powered, rear drive, performance coupe. :)


Pontiac seems to be wielding an inordinant amount of influence here. Chevy could virtually pull off this program on it's own without Pontiac or Buick, but Pontiac/Buick can't do it without Chevy's participation.

And yet, Pontiac seems to be calling most of the shots.

Pontiac has always wielded an inordainant amount of power considering their sales totals regarding performance cars. The Firebird kept bigger more powerful engines than Camaro in the 1st & 2nd gen, the 3rd gen Firebirds got their own sheet metal, unlike the 1st & 2nd gens, 4th gen Firebirds not only again got their own skin, they also had no fewer than 4 front & rear ends, while Camaro made due with 2 fronts and a revised set of tail lights. Pontiac got the Holden Monaro CV8 as a stop gap car, while Chevrolet had nothing. There's more as well.

It's not that Pontiac is calling the shots, it's that Pontiac is more coddled than Chevrolet, and gets more of what they want.

Chevrolet wasn't even going to get a zeta sedan initially, though Pontiac was from the start. Pontiac is also getting a ferocious G6 coupe within a year. Chevrolet Malibu will continue being a questionably looking 4 door sedan with a more .... "sedate" engine.

Naming a 5th gen ANYTHING other than Camaro will be a b!tch slap in the face. I don't want a chevelle or whatever other name they'll conjure up from a 30+ year slumber :rolleyes:.

Till we actually see what this car actually is, I have to respectfully disagree. :)

Not expecting anything other than a V8 powered, rear drive, performance coupe. :)






Oh, me neither.

Just like the GTO..................

from what i've read, the new mopar is riding GM's butt. if this RWD coupe isn't what we're hoping for, dcx will proudly claim the spot.
thats not to say that dcx won't try if the RWD coupe is a big hit.

I will be at maximum disgust at GM till they bring back my Camaro without stripping it of it's identity. I'm one of the few that has held with the promise not to buy a GM vehicle till they broughtthe Camaro back (As if they had much to offer in the first place). GM just sucks, I wish they would've showed the love Ford shows the Mustang..

Chevy doesnt NEED a RWD sedan. Chevy doesnt NEED a RWD coupe. It would be nice if they did have one.

Actually Al, I disagree here. Chevrolet NEEDS both of those things. Theres two HUGE voids in the Chevy lineup right now that those cars would fill up rather nicely.

Once again, all this talk of a Zeta coupe without the Camaro name worries me. At this point, if Chevy releases a Zeta coupe NOT called Camaro, it would seem that the Camaro would be a more niche like vehicle if it were to return. That, to me, is not good news. :(

I could careless....no point in being disgusted about something you cant do anything about

Actually Al, I disagree here. Chevrolet NEEDS both of those things. Theres two HUGE voids in the Chevy lineup right now that those cars would fill up rather nicely.

Once again, all this talk of a Zeta coupe without the Camaro name worries me. At this point, if Chevy releases a Zeta coupe NOT called Camaro, it would seem that the Camaro would be a more niche like vehicle if it were to return. That, to me, is not good news. :(

Nicely said. They do NEED those cars and the Camaro as a low-production car, just isn't right.

Actually Al, I disagree here. Chevrolet NEEDS both of those things. Theres two HUGE voids in the Chevy lineup right now that those cars would fill up rather nicely.

Once again, all this talk of a Zeta coupe without the Camaro name worries me. At this point, if Chevy releases a Zeta coupe NOT called Camaro, it would seem that the Camaro would be a more niche like vehicle if it were to return. That, to me, is not good news. :(

I dont see the void! I think that you WANT a RWD V8 sedan and coupe...but think like GM for a sec. They dont NEED to put them there when Chevy is a bread and butter car company, and where FWD cars will do just fine. They can just use the Impala and Monte forever.
In Pontiacs case, where they want to be more of a sport oriented company, a RWD chassis for a coupe and sedan would seem to be of more priority before Chevy.
Sure, you or Chevy might WANT it...but in GM's mind, they dont NEED it.

No.

Chevrolet, the lead division of GM, (and it's most popular/known division) NEEDS cars with appeal and needs to reach more audiences. RWD/V8/full-size = Chevy, they lead the market for years and years. They also need to stop with the plentiful FWD/V6, boring mediocrity, and plain cars. They need a car like the B-Bodies and Impala SS's. They need something 300C-like. They need RWD/V8 and inspiring cars. They need class-leading designs and they need to take back markets. They need to try and get things out before everyone else and they need excitement. Chevrolet needs to be Chevrolet again. Who'll be fans of this time in Chevy's history years from now? Answer: No one. What cool cars will they talk about besides the Corvette? Answer: None.

I am not disgusted at all.

:cool:

THANK YOU GUY!!! I do think that Pontiac should have the focus of the Zeta cars, as well as Buick, and to a lesser extent...Chevy. Pontiac NEEDS RWD cars. Buick NEEDS a flexable RWD/AWD chassis to make silent luxury cars. Chevy doesnt NEED a RWD sedan. Chevy doesnt NEED a RWD coupe. It would be nice if they did have one.

I'll tell you what GM needs. GM needs Chevy to be a very strong global brand. It needs Chevy to become more than the cheap, crappy appliance division.

Let's face it, GM's core brands are Chevy and Cadillac. All the others, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, GMC, etc, are merely peripheral brands.

im not disgusted at all i say this is outta my realm of control so why fret over it if it was ment to be then it will be but if not ohhh well that sucks but i will still have my camaro
i say its all good let them do their thing (makin cars) and we will do our thing (buyin cars)
and if they dont have THE car for you then buy what you want thats available

I dont see the void! I think that you WANT a RWD V8 sedan and coupe...but think like GM for a sec. They dont NEED to put them there when Chevy is a bread and butter car company, and where FWD cars will do just fine. They can just use the Impala and Monte forever.
In Pontiacs case, where they want to be more of a sport oriented company, a RWD chassis for a coupe and sedan would seem to be of more priority before Chevy.
Sure, you or Chevy might WANT it...but in GM's mind, they dont NEED it.


It's this sort of short sighted thinking that is driving GM into the ground. GM should NOT be just tha American Kia, making cheap crappy econoboxes. GM has always had cars with appeal to the youth, and getting young fans means you have a car buyer when they get older. Honestly, you think a young teen now is going to become a GM fan from the Cavalier his friend has that has eaten a few transmissions already? The Impala and the Monte are cars that appeal to a select group of people, and that's an older group of people who are buying Chevy because they have a loyalty to Chevy. What happens when those people aren't around anymore? GM isn't making any fans to replace them. Someone in charge at GM is thinking like you, and that's why the company is doing so poorly right now.

Chevy NEEDS to give customers what they WANT, or they are going to go even further down the tubes than they are now. Making cars that are worse than all of their competition for a higher price is driving the company into the ground.

Chevy used to know what it's market wanted. It made it for years, and that's what kept it as such a successful brand. Lately, it has no idea about what the customer wants, and seems to just hand a car making formula to some economist and tells him to put out the cheapest piece of crap they can make, so they can turn the most short term profit. This is not the way to run the largest automaker in the world.

Zeta coupes/convertibles are on the way...that's true. If you're hoping for a Camaro out of them, you'll be disappointed...for various reasons. I've been hearing this from a number of sources (and for a number of reasons). Maybe Doug can chime in here also....we were together on one encoun

I am sure there are credible sources out there that would say otherwise. I guess we wont know until they hit the show room.

I still say that if Zeta does not spawn a 5th gen Camaro, we will not get one (at least not this decade).

Of course lately that doesn't seem to bother too many people. I am surprised at how many people on a Camaro website are willing to accept any RWD, affordable coupe from Chevy.

Sorry not me. I want a Camaro, and that is all I will accept.

I dont see the void! I think that you WANT a RWD V8 sedan and coupe...but think like GM for a sec. They dont NEED to put them there when Chevy is a bread and butter car company, and where FWD cars will do just fine. They can just use the Impala and Monte forever.
In Pontiacs case, where they want to be more of a sport oriented company, a RWD chassis for a coupe and sedan would seem to be of more priority before Chevy.
Sure, you or Chevy might WANT it...but in GM's mind, they dont NEED it.
I agree. Chevrolet should be a mainstream brand like Toyota, and how many rear wheel drive cars do they make? The facts of the matter are that the majority of car buyers probably do not care or prefer front wheel drive in their everyday cars.

I agree. Chevrolet should be a mainstream brand like Toyota, and how many rear wheel drive cars do they make? The facts of the matter are that the majority of car buyers probably do not care or prefer front wheel drive in their everyday cars.

If Chevy was Toyota, then we wouldn't be on this website. Chevy has loyalty from people like us. The only reason people buy crappy Malibus is because they liked a fun Chevy car at some point in their life and have loyalty to the brand. GM modeling themselves after Toyota strips them of everything that got them where they are today.

If GM settles for making the worthless piece of crap cars they make now, they'll spiral out of business. And I'd say good riddance, because the cars GM is making are boring and crap.

Even if the only goal GM has is to emulate Toyota....why would anyone buy a GM car over Toyota? GM can't beat Toyota at their own game, and to gain any market share they need to do what got them where they are today, which is make cars that actually excite the masses. Chevy got where it was on the backs of cars like the Camaro, the Corvette, and the SS models from the 60's to the mid 90s that got people's blood pumping.

The type of thinking you have is short term thinking that's going to drive the company into the ground. Funny enough, on TV right now I'm watching American Muscle Car, talking about Pontiac. In the 50's, Pontiac made boring cars that had nothing to inspire anything in anyone, and the brand was failing and about to get the axe. Bunky Knudsen gave the whole brand an excitement injection, and the SuperDuty engines came along, restyled the cars to make them exciting. Saved the Pontiac brand which was failing.

You'd think people would look back to the past to realize how not to repeat the same mistakes, but apparently that is lost on GM.

*******WARNING, RANT BELOW, DONT MIND SPELLING AND RUN ONS*******


The above post is really what nails it down and hollars the same message which I have been screaming lately, and what really was going on in my minds.

I do not recall the last time I was in a chevy dealership.

I am russian and came over here 13 years ago... our first cars were pontiac bonnie's and caprices.... when I was young, all I ever wanted was a camaro, the excitement that was breathing. Imports were out of hte question because they didnt have much going for them, GM specifically was the king, it represented america and the american dream.

Now.....Chevrolet and GM represent the bargain basement with the likes of Wallmart, Wallmart doesnt have anything good, but is hte place to go if you want something cheap, or what you really want is not avail. I am in the process of getting a new vehicle, and as much as I want to get a GM, there is absolutely nothing that screams excitement with the exception of the c6 which is still lacking and not what I want.

Where is the 4 door coupe, euro styled, great interior that screams quality and power to boot? Where is GM's Altima, Passat, a6, Maxima, Accord, g35?

With GM trying to have everything, and with their goals of being good at everything, and best at nothing.... in reality.... they are sub par with everything, and best at nothing at all. Caddie is the only division that has things going for it. CTS, XLR steps in the right direction. But the Caddie of today sure is not the caddie of yesteryear. When caddilac was a symbol of status quo, and not bling bling escalade and who cares about the cars?

For value cars....Hyundai is a leader.
Mid Size sedans, you have Nissan, Toyota and Honda eating into GM's marketshare every day, see other post....
Full Size cars.....Does gm even have any? oh wait, supposedly there is no market for full size cars, a buick will have to do.... Just tell that to all the 300, magnum, 500, and crown vic/ town car owners.

Performance Excitement? Um.... we have the vette......, then we have a car taking up a classic name, assraping the name, but its ok.... in 2005 it will have hood scoops, GTO.... YOU MIGHT AS WELL CALL IT A MONARO HERE! IF YOU CANT DO A GTO PROPERLY, DONT FUGGIN DO IT AT ALL!

So... we know GM lacks in this respect... they are transitioning, lets give them benefit of the doubt.... so then what would any company do to sell cars.....lower price, ah wait... rebates!! but isnt something wrong when even with rebates the cars are not selling?!?!?! you have to put rebates on new 05 models? $3500 rebate on GP, 3500 rebate on new 05 trailblazer....$6000 rebate on 04 trailblazer. on top of this.... add getting the car at invoice and low financing..... you can get a $35k truck for under $25k. But THEY ARE STILL NOT SELLING THAT WELL. Whats worse is you have people now, myself included, that would not even look at a gm car without a rebate. I feel sorry for the first gto owners who paid markups for the sake of owning a GTO, when you have dealers selling NEW GTO'S. $34K STICKER PRICE FOR $24K!

The G6 is the only car looking to give me hope.... $20k starting sticker, and 23k for gt.... yay, $1,000 rebate on it as well.... go to gmbuypower, try to find a GT g6 for under $25k. Most of them are $28k stickers on the lots.....yeah, I didnt know that a G6 commended a higher price than a fully loaded 3.5 altima, or maxima. Or a fully loaded accord, or camry, or a base acura tsx for that matter.

My whole big thing with GM also comes to to resale values and the logo on the grill not being worth the metal/plastic it is made from. Even though i am in the market for a 4 door sporty sedan, ala passat/a4, I was open to spending more for a GTO...whoever even say picking up a gto for $26k......it is relatively big bucks for a car, especially if you finance, when you know you will not be able to get that much 2 years from now, even a year from now, hell, 90 days from now. If a person who bought an 04 gto paid $30k for theirs, how can they sell theirs used if they wanted to get a new 05 with ls2, or anything, when 6 months after they bought their GTO, they lost 1/3 the cost, as they can only sell theirs for $20k because a dealer on ebay, and soon down the street is selling identical car brand new with 10 miles on the clock for $24-25k?

Rebates which were meant to temporarilly boost sales for holidays, are now permanently etched into the minds of consumers and resale values.....so yes, I do feel sorry for anyone that purchases their Gm vehicle above invoice price.....Why should you pay more than invoice as you also have coupons and bargains in form of rebates..... kinda like russian roulette.....your halo car, GTO, needs big rebates to sell itself, so you buy it, and dont know if it wil lbecome classic and hold its value, or go straight to the clearence rack.

I doubt anyone who buys a Mustang Cobra, or a ford GT has to worry about ford having to put big rebates on their cars to sell themselves.

Ok, enough ranting. hehe.

I will be at maximum disgust at GM till they bring back my Camaro without stripping it of it's identity. I'm one of the few that has held with the promise not to buy a GM vehicle till they broughtthe Camaro back (As if they had much to offer in the first place). GM just sucks, I wish they would've showed the love Ford shows the Mustang..

Couldn't agree more.

Looking at the current styling cues that GM is giving their new cars, I'm not looking forward to seeing what the 5th gen will look like. Especially since they say it won't be retro.

If Pontiac puts out a RWD coupe, I'll bet it has the same generic double-kidney grill as most all of their other products do.

The 91/92, 93-97 Camaros were the best looking ones IMO.

If Chevy was Toyota, then we wouldn't be on this website. Chevy has loyalty from people like us. The only reason people buy crappy Malibus is because they liked a fun Chevy car at some point in their life and have loyalty to the brand. GM modeling themselves after Toyota strips them of everything that got them where they are today.
I guess you'd be on supraforums...
Enthusiasts are a small part of the auto buying public. I'm sure there are plenty of people that bought Malibus that did not have a sporty Chevrolet way back in the day. My father has bought all of his new cars from GM since the mid 80's. He had Mopar's when he was younger.

If GM settles for making the worthless piece of crap cars they make now, they'll spiral out of business. And I'd say good riddance, because the cars GM is making are boring and crap.
Hmm so GM cars are worthless pieces of crap because in your opinion they are boring and crap? By that logic Toyota would be out of business already, instead of making more profit than anyone else. I guess there really isn't a market for cars that are reliable, get good mileage, and get you to work in the morning.

Besides, GM has plenty of exciting cars that are in fact exciting whether or not people will recognize them as such or not.

Even if the only goal GM has is to emulate Toyota....why would anyone buy a GM car over Toyota? GM can't beat Toyota at their own game, and to gain any market share they need to do what got them where they are today, which is make cars that actually excite the masses. Chevy got where it was on the backs of cars like the Camaro, the Corvette, and the SS models from the 60's to the mid 90s that got people's blood pumping.
Ah here is the heart of the matter. Why can't GM compete with Toyota (nevermind the fact that I said Chevrolet should be going after the segment that Toyota has, not all of General Motors)? Building cars isn't rocket science, and Toyota sure as hell does not control the world's only supply of magic pixy dust that they sprinkle on their cars as they roll down the line that improves quality by eleventy billion percent and makes people want to buy them. If company A can build it, company B can build it.

The type of thinking you have is short term thinking that's going to drive the company into the ground. Funny enough, on TV right now I'm watching American Muscle Car, talking about Pontiac. In the 50's, Pontiac made boring cars that had nothing to inspire anything in anyone, and the brand was failing and about to get the axe. Bunky Knudsen gave the whole brand an excitement injection, and the SuperDuty engines came along, restyled the cars to make them exciting. Saved the Pontiac brand which was failing.
Did I say Pontiac or Chevrolet, I can't remember? Oh wait, I said Chevrolet should be more like Toyota. Chevrolet is supposed to be a bread and butter car and truck division that just happens to have some sporty models thrown in. Who is the leader in bread and butter cars right now?

Pontiac is supposed to be the excitement division. Pontiac is supposed to be the poor man's BMW.

You'd think people would look back to the past to realize how not to repeat the same mistakes, but apparently that is lost on GM.
The mistake was allowing the quaility gap to occur during the 70's and 80's. The 90's did much to repair the gap, their image is still in the crapper. Even you, who purports to be a GM enthusiast, think that there is no way for GM to compete with Toyota.

I agree. Chevrolet should be a mainstream brand like Toyota, and how many rear wheel drive cars do they make? The facts of the matter are that the majority of car buyers probably do not care or prefer front wheel drive in their everyday cars.

Toyota has some good things and some bad things.

Toyota puts out a great product. Top end build quality, good materials, great long term reliability. They also have some generally boring designs and not so sporty suspension settings. It's the good things about Toyota that has made them such a juggernaut. It's the good things that have essentially replaced Chevy with Toyota as "America's Car". And now Toyota realizes that to get to the next level...to unseat GM perhaps, as number #1.... they need some more snazzy designs. And they are going to get them.

I'd say it's a mistake to take everything I just wrote and sum it up as... "If Chevy wants to compete with Toyota, it needs boring cars". That's a HUGE mistake.

If Chevy merely tries to mimmick Toyota, (and do a poor impersonation of it at that), it will always be 5-10 years behind. Sounds like a formula for failure to me.

How about if.............

Chevy tries to get a jump on Toyota, with some hot exciting product. :think:

Hmm so GM cars are worthless pieces of crap because in your opinion they are boring and crap? By that logic Toyota would be out of business already, instead of making more profit than anyone else. I guess there really isn't a market for cars that are reliable, get good mileage, and get you to work in the morning.

Besides, GM has plenty of exciting cars that are in fact exciting whether or not people will recognize them as such or not.


Ah here is the heart of the matter. Why can't GM compete with Toyota (nevermind the fact that I said Chevrolet should be going after the segment that Toyota has, not all of General Motors)? Building cars isn't rocket science, and Toyota sure as hell does not control the world's only supply of magic pixy dust that they sprinkle on their cars as they roll down the line that improves quality by eleventy billion percent and makes people want to buy them. If company A can build it, company B can build it.


Did I say Pontiac or Chevrolet, I can't remember? Oh wait, I said Chevrolet should be more like Toyota. Chevrolet is supposed to be a bread and butter car and truck division that just happens to have some sporty models thrown in. Who is the leader in bread and butter cars right now?

Pontiac is supposed to be the excitement division. Pontiac is supposed to be the poor man's BMW.


The mistake was allowing the quaility gap to occur during the 70's and 80's. The 90's did much to repair the gap, their image is still in the crapper. Even you, who purports to be a GM enthusiast, think that there is no way for GM to compete with Toyota.

GM cars are boring and uninspiring to the automotive public at large and that's why they're requiring many thousands of dollars in rebates to move off of lots at all.

Why can't GM compete with Toyota? It was summed up pretty well by Z28 up there. Mimicing Toyotas weaknesses while lacking it's strengths won't help anything at all.

Who cares what you said? I made the point that when Pontiac was a brand full of boring, generic cars, it was going out of business, and that adding excitement saved the brand. It doesn't matter what brand name it has, any car company needs to excite it's buyers, otherwise the buyers aren't going to buy anything. The lesson applies to any car brand, and perhaps you should open your mind a bit and realize just because it happened to Pontiac then doesn't mean it isn't happening to Chevy now. Pontiac may have been marketed as the excitement brand, but Chevy has had excitement built in up until the last 5 or so years.

Can GM compete with Toyota? Sure. They just need to build a better, more attractive car and sell it for less money, and pay their dues for a decade or two to get back into having a good reputation. Building an ugly duckling, boring car at a higher price than the competition is going to get GM/Chevy nowhere. Any company could compete, I just don't think GM WILL.

And as was said, mimicing what's wrong with Toyota while not having what's right is why GM/Chevy's cars have such trouble selling. Z284ever said it better than I could....why not build a quality, exciting product and watch your sales turn around?

Chrysler has had a crap reputation, worse than GM. Look at the 300 fly off the lots. If you build it, they will come.