Tourque arm

What does the tourque arm do?? I was looking at suspention components at tunder racing(and a few others) and the question poped into my head. If i want my car to handle better and handle a decent amount of power int he furture would it be in my best intrest to get an aftermarket one??

Thanks.

I'll say this again, I'm not an AutoXer. . . But I think the Torque arm is prolly the number one thing to buy for any application whehter it be drag or autoX. . .

When the rear end is put under load, the front part of it wants to kick up. A torque arm prevents this. A stocker TA takes the load of the rear end trying to go up and blocks it from going up by being attatched to a bushing on the tranny. Too much HP will break that bushing that the TA is connected too. . . A good quality after market one will attatch to the body somewhere and tranfer more weight than the stocker will, this is where the high HP guys can lift their front tires off the ground. Instead of tranferring partial weight and load to the rear end, it'll transfer FULL weight to the rear end and won't budge as much as the stocker and plant the tires firmly to the ground, and if you have a hi HP motor you'll be able to lift the tires off the ground. . . For a drag application of course. For an autoX application, I'm not speaking from experience but I can assume how this would work is much like that drag. When you come out of a turn or start laying some HP down, you don't want a stocker TA to have your rear axle hopping like a bunny and spinning tires like a mofo', you would want those tires planted firmling down so you don't spin or lose power in hopping. You want to stick and go. . .

I recently purchased a Spohn Torque, with a -2 angle, and I must say this SOB is one SOLID mofo!! You can tell a significant difference in the traction you get with this. Hell you can look at the difference when you burn out! On a stocker torque arm when I see some people do burn outs you can see the wheel hop in the marks, it goes from a solid mark then fades out then solid again and fade, etc. . . now when I do one, its a solid thick, I mean thicker than normal, patch or rubber.

I would recommend the Spohn, though it is expensive but its prolly the best out there! Solid bar, not tubular!! suckers heavy, but you'll see why. . . Also comes with optional built in driveshaft loops. I bought mine with the option of a front and rear driveshaft loops, worth it IMO!!

but like I said I'm not an autoXer, but thats my 2 cents on it. . . I could see the Spohn helping and AutoX car out though, and I've seen a couple people post about it on here and liked it. . .

Leave the stock torque arm alone.. there are racers running 9 or 10 sec quarter mile with stock torque arm..

The stock arm's only weakness is its tendency to flex.. if it were reinforced in some way with thicker steel you wouldn't even need to change it whatsoever.

I've heard/seen most of the these aftermarket tq arms break (including Spohn) or wear the u-joints/floor pan of the car..

I've had most of them GW/Spohn/LG...

I would stick with the LG one, it's the most intelligent design since it is like stock, it's beefy and rotates and slides freely on it's attachment point... just like stock...

The spohn attaches to the weakest point of the car.. the tunnel brace point... which is two pieces of sheet metal spot welded to the floor pan.. this is terrible since the short tq arm puts alot of stress to its pivot point and therefore you risk ripping the arm of the car..

Also the arm should not have bind at it's rotating/pivot point... the spohn/bmr trackpak create bind.

GW traclink is very good... but will wear u-joints down and cause alot of vibration/wear to tranny crossmember...

Since your car is stock.. I would start with more basic changes.. sfc's, stb... or even a better seat...

Thanks for the info Steve. I plan on lowring the car with the Eibach Pro-kit(1.25 in drop). I would get the LCA relocation brackets to keep everything aligned. Would the drop change anything or would the stock one still be good? Like I said before, right now im just looking for good handling. Limited drag racing, if i do race it will be road or auto-x. After the !CAGS and new tires, SFC and STB are on the top of the list. Thanks again.

At first the comment about the seat through me off, but then i realized that would be money well spent seeing how much I move in my seats now.

Eibach pro kit is good, the rear spring is good since its soft like stock so good for drag racing.

Don't forget that you will likely start scraping every single part under your car... and then in 2 months you'll take off the springs and go back to stock...:)

If I were you I would look instead at the SLP eibach/bilstein combo... this is perfect since it only lowers 3/4" which is plenty and doesn't require getting relocation brackets or adjustable panhard bar... plus you won't scrape every single entrance and exit on the streets...

I've seen people flatten their headers because of this ... :(

Believe it or not, after changing this & that in my cars for the past couple of years.. I've found that changing seats is often overlooked in these cars..

I mean to be quite honest I don't even like the seats in the corvette either...

I guess I get too spoiled driving my friends NSXs and M3s... and picking out all the flaws in our cars :)

But there's not much options for seats so don't jump off your chair yet.. Recaro, Momo and Corbeau are the only seat makers that have brackets for our cars.

Corbeau is the most affordable and cheapest quality.. and then followed by momo and recaro.

I have recaros in my car... love love love them... :) It simulates the feeling that you're in a more expensive car .. yeah right ... more importantly it holds you in place while taking aggresive turns and makes you focus on driving.

Steve

Steve, once again, thanks for all the help. I will get the SLP kit down the road. I was planing on getting everything in the kit anyway, plus its cheaper then buying each part. Only question is, it only comes with the front sway bar. Do i need to get one for the rear(intended uses of the car are above for anyone other then Steve). Would i notice any handling losses from not having a beafier one in the back?
Thanks agian. :)

I cant see how the Spohn design would create any binding. Looks like a good design to me. I like the madman industries arm also. You want a shorter length arm but not too short. This will improve instant center and help traction.
The Global West unit is Garbage! I have heard of plenty of damaged floor pans because of this arm. It is quite binding. To the point of limiting travel. Shorter length is nice. But it is to short. Plus attaches to a weak part of the car.
I have seen cars with limited travel because of this arm and have had a GW tech admit that they will cause floor pan trouble.

I have the SLP Level 1 kit, and am very happy with the stock 19mm bar. The car handles well, and hooks up coming off a corner. The front shocks (SLP Bilstiens) need more damping for serious autox/RR, but ride nicely on the street.

THe SLP kit is very good, don't get the poly reinforced components they will create bind in the rear.

Also you can certainly run a 21mm in the rear, but I would match it with a 35mm in the front. Otherwise 32/19 f/r is fine.

ARe you running 17x9 wheels? Tires make a huge difference too...

lons94z...

I've had all the arms... i can say out of the short arms the GW is functionally the best... there is not as much bind at the pivot point because the arm slides in/out of the rubber snubber.

Furthermore it is better mounted to the car... floor pan (7 bolts) and tranny crossmember (1 bolt). Way better than 4 tiny little 13mm bolts connected to the cross member.

And then finally it works... grip grip grip like i've never experienced it from a solid axle car (with a 95# v6 spring and a standard bilstein HD shock).

Spohn didn't even come close...

GW arm has helped some autox'ers win championships, it definitely isn't a POS.

This : http://www.slponline.com/view_product.asp?PARTNUMBER=70001 is the kit I would get. I have no idea if that has the reinforced components of which you speek.
So would i need the larger sway bar in the back to match thr front?? I think your saying i dont, but just want to double check.
I am currentally running 16X8 wheels at the moment. but i wont be getting the SLP kit for at least a year, so if all goes well ill get the kit as well as new wheels and tires. They are in the plan(the wheels i mean). But like i said this is a ways off, but if i know what im getting i can save for it starting now. Thanks again, you have been a huge help :bow: Steve :bow:

SLP part number 70001 is what I have and suggest, 70001A has the reinforced LCA's/PHB (which is a good idea), but they also have poly bushings (which is a bad idea). 70001 comes with 1LE LCA's & PHB.

Thanks for the input Chuck, its nice to hear positive things from someone who has used the products. Thanks again
:D

Hey Chuck do you miss your 1LE? :)

Which drives better now your new TA or 1LE?

Steve_C,

I've got questions regarding your Recaros. They are SRDs, right? If they are, do you mind shedding some lights on these seats?

1. Are the brackets/sliders a shoe in fit, or did you have to make them fit? How much did they cost (both seats and sliders)? I see
http://www.recaro-seats.com/recaro_srd.htm and
http://www.daveturner.com/recaro/index.html as potentials vendors to get 'em from.

2. I'm 5' 11", 33 waist. I pretty much rub the liner with my helmet.
it's no problem for a quick 13 sec trip down the strip, but concerned it'd be with a/x or o/t. Does it seat higher than stock?

3. Did you ever drive long distance with the seat (like to the tracks)? Are they comfortable enough?

Thanks a bunch in advance!
Aria

I bought mine from recaro-seats.com, the guy there is really nice to take your money...... i mean he's a great guy jk :)

The SRD is the perfect seat for street/track... well anything is better than stock... it even is good for your back too (orthopedic)!

You can go with SPG but thats for real racing..

The base bracket (one that bolts to the stock studs) wasn't that
great... I had to file the holes a bit... but they went on snug..

The slides bolt up to the seat (universal) and have three hole positions to adjust height/angle. I actually had to cut a piece off one of the sliders because it got in the way of the base bracket!
So I could't lower the front because of it.

I have the seat at the lowest setting and its pretty much like stock height.. I can still move my head with my helmet...

I do find the seats to be a little to out towards the door which makes me contact the upper outside pillars or t-tops sooner..

The seats are $525 each and bracket/sliders is $110 for the kit. So about $635 +$50 shipping...

Pricy but worth it, besides Momo, Sparco, Cobra, OMP are all in the 500-600 range for a decent base seat.

Steve

Thanks Steve! Sounds like it'd work for me. I was afraid the brackets and sliders would be a project to make fit.

Here's a silly question, the seat being a touch to the left, you dont
find yourself off center with the steering wheel, right?

Thanks,
Aria

no, it's not even noticeable... it's a great seat you'll like it.

My best advice is to go to a local speed shop and sit in a couple seats to see how it fits you.. that's how I did it. I found a shop that had the two seats I was deciding on: Momo and Recaro and I got to try them out...

Mucho gracias, Steve...

I've only sat on Recaro SE. I'm planning to go a shop near me soon. They're cleaning out their inventories looks like. (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2 F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=recaro+srd)

Can't wait to hear your review on the new brakes!

Aria

Wow hey if you can spend only around $350 for that seat go for it!

Yeah... I'll talk about the brakes soon :)

steve

Yeah I would suggest going and trying out seats before you buy them. I have Forza's in my car right now and they fit me pretty good but I know some people dont' like them because they don't have enough lower back support. The cloth I think could be a little better but for the price they are not bad

On the TQ arm....I would suggest LG's as well. There is absolutly no binding at all. Its lighter and stronger than all of the others I have seen.

When you get into stuff like GW's and Spohn's where they change the lenght of the arm and its mounting points you start to change how the car reacts as far as dive and lift and the forces on the arm itself and the car. I have seen a lot of guys tear out the floor pan with the Spohn unit as well (these were pretty quick drag cars).

The way I look at it....go with the people that have experiance and LG has had enough experiance on the track to more than prove the design of the parts he sells.

How is the BMR xtreme torque arm? The one that mounts to a round crossmember that is welded directly to their subframe connectors? It seems like a good idea considering the torque arm is tied into a seperate crossmember which is welded to subframe connectors. I will also have my roll cage tied into the subframe connectors so that everything is connected. Any thoughts?

So is a non adj TA preferred choice for auto-x and road racing? I just broke my Flow tech and I've been reading this post and others for awhile. I've got a set of reloc brackets so could that compensate for drag when I occasionally do that? Just trying to get some ideas before buying another one shortly.....

Nobody has a comment? I'd really like to have a idea what's more pratical for my application.

Sam Strano uses the Random Tech arm. And he knows his stuff. I have seen it in action on the 82 Camaro.
My self I am looking for a slightly shorter arm to change instant center and anit squat.
On paper the Spohn arm looks like my best bet. I will let people know when the time comes.

Shorter torque arms are definatly the way to go from an anit-squat (acceleration traction) standpoint. However, they do cause more wheel hop as a long torque arm is best for braking. The ideal torque arm is therefore de-coupled and acts short for accel and long for decel. We are prototyping one on Alan Blane's '94 ITE car right now.

Yea thats true. Which would make a shorter arm not good for the LS1 cars.
But in my enviroment (autocross) and having an LT1 (no brake hop problems) I think a shorter arm would work well.

If you come up with a decoupled arm that does not attach directly to the floor pan I will be a potential customer.

BTW I am going to send an E-mail. I would like to discuss something briefly, off-list.

I would not feel comfortable installing a torque arm in the stock location if I was putting down more than 400RWHP. That is quite a bit of stress being placed on your tranny, and I have heard of peoples tranny case and tunnel cracking. It just doesn't seem safe to me.

You guys also mentioned that the ones that mount to the tunnel brace can cause problems. Well, what if it was installed with DD subframes? They also connect to the tunnel brace and it seems that they would vastly improve the load distribution. Any thoughts?

Brian

I agree a shorter TA is better than a long one, even with the braking issues. I am currently running a GW track link on my '96 SM car, but that will be changed out as soon as we have production Unbalanced Engineering torque arms ready to ship. When I was running the LT1 front brakes, I still had occasional wheel hop issues, but once I swapped to the LS1 fronts the additional front brake bias fixed that. I'll drop the list a note when the UE unit is ready with all the details.

Yeah keep us posted. I would like to see this TA and any results from it before buying mine. I'm leaning towards Spohn for sure but if something comes out better I'm all on it!

Hi ZBLKHELLRZR

Please keep me informed what you choose. This is my next mod.

Cheers Jagsy

Originally posted by 1LEThumper
How is the BMR xtreme torque arm? The one that mounts to a round crossmember that is welded directly to their subframe connectors? It seems like a good idea considering the torque arm is tied into a seperate crossmember which is welded to subframe connectors. I will also have my roll cage tied into the subframe connectors so that everything is connected. Any thoughts?


POTENTZ, be careful with this design, because if you compete at all, your class will be destroyed. Street Mod is very wide open, but when you laterally connect your subframes your screwed.

--Kevin

Oh! Be careful with the Recaro SRDs if you have a waistline about 34". They are made for little skinny Italians I think :) I had to get the Evo2s from sparco, but they sat a little too high, so I mounted the seat to the slider, and the slider to the floor directly (used spacers for the rear 2 bolts because of the dip in the floor). Works well and is well centered. The passenger side cant work this way because of the transmission hump.
--Kevin

Dude.. you don't like Recaro SRD's? I have a 33" waistline.. I think the seat is perfect.. it's meant to hold you in tight...

I didn't think Sparco made base brackets for the floor... where did you buy yours?

Steve

I got mine at OG Racing. They are in Manassas VA, and you'll see ads from them in just about every magazine. I thought the Recaros came were too narrow for your legs, as in the side bolsters that rise vertically from the bottom of the seat went into the edge of my thighs rather than beside them. They do end up conforming to you w/ time. My sparcos feel completely different becuase Im in one every day and the other doesnt get used too often. Everyone I know who has gotten cheaper seats though (as in Corbeau mainly) thought they were getting something like Sparco or Recaro, and were very disapointed after 3-4 months when all the padding compressed and they had parts of the frame jabbing into their tail bone... I was going to get the Recaros that have the AC built into them and the dampening, but I couldn't find one of that model to sit in first.

Originally posted by steve_c
Hey Chuck do you miss your 1LE? :)

Which drives better now your new TA or 1LE?
I miss it often... The T/A is faster on the autox course, but I think the 1LE handled better at higher speeds like on a road course. I think the SLP Bilsteins are a little soft for the rought stuff, and the 1LE Koni DA's are a great shock! The T/A also has a 50-60 rwhp advantage :)

umm, using an aftermarket torque arm doesnt wear u-joints.

setting the pinion angle too far below level is what does that (ie-6* below level)

The stock Torque Arm is a VERY long & Very Large Spring, that is why when you try and recover from a large drift in one direction, the car not only corrects but whips around so hard that most people OVER correct and more often then not, spinout. The Torque Arm is designed for Bound & Rebound in and Vertical Fashion, and for that it does wonders. But in tight turns it is being forced to work horizontally or laterally, this is something it does Not Do Well.

Here is a visual. If you take sword and use it the way it was intended, like slashing at something, well, you could do some real damage to someone or something. But, if you turn the blade 90 degrees and slash with it in the same direction, when you hit something it will just wobble around, same basic concept with the Torque Arm.

Another problem with the unwieldy Torque Arm is that under heavy/ tight turning it can allow or even pull the inside wheel off of the ground, making the power going to that wheel less effective, and with an LSD it will increase the power to the one wheel with good traction there buy over loading it with power. Then, around you go.

Most after market Torque Arms allow for a much greater range of movement and strength, in all directions. And allow the rear end to be planted much flatter. So in that respect the After Market Torque Arms do add traction. But I suspect, not the kind of traction you are referring to. I would recommend a set of LCA relocation brackets, which correct a great deal of suspension geometry especially when the car has been lowered. This moves your instant center forward and will help launching far more than a Torque Arm. But I do highly recommend a Torque Arm To Anyone with an F-Body.

I bought a MAC Torque Arm for 200.00 from them directly and it was the stoutest piece I have seen produced YET, Bar NONE! But it is a hefty undertaking and I would definitely have a shop or someone with a Lift and a good deal of time to install that particular Arm for you. It is a B*tch to get it in, but once you do, you will notice a difference.

Combine both of those pieces and you should have a combo that hooks and keeps it planted in the turns.

Hope this helps.


:D :D

W/ spohn TA's they have the front mount either in bushing form or rod spherical end. Is there a difference in performance w/ one over the other? Or is the rod end just going to be louder?

First, nothing that is mounted in Polyurethane is going to transfer power better than something that is hard mounted (PERIOD)!

Second, if you look at the big picture, the power coming through the TA (in stock Form) has to not only go through the F*CK up bushing but then it has this flimsy attachment to the back of the transmission and that is in turn attached to the Body & the Exhaust system.

If the TA attaches DIRECTLY to the body either by creating its own NEW mounting point or an new bracing system and it completely negates the old style of (to the back of the Transmission) then it will transfer power better and more evenly. Then the only down side is increased road noise. But lets not pull any punches, the road noise isn't incredible, it is just more present.
:D :D

I'll second the road noise, I get to hear my diff wind down at every stop... The other bad side effect is it will increase rear wheel hop under hard braking.

--Kevin