Which of these performance divisions/model lines is the coolest ?

I was just wondering which one of these divisions/model lines are the coolest? If SS should be Chevrolets top performance designation how does it compare to the competition? Is Chevrolet doing a good job compared to the others? Is the SS designation really worthy of being thought of as a performance package? You guys be the judge.

HSV:
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/jsp/homepage/homepage.jsp

GPX: (please scroll to the middle of page)
http://www.pontiac.com/concept/index.jsp?brand=home&pagename=home

SVT:
http://www.svt.ford.com/flash/index.html

SS:
http://www.chevrolet.com/ss/ss_flash.htm


I know some of these cars are not available here and some of them are concepts. In my poll I will also include V Series (CTS-V) and PVO (SRT-4/Viper/SRT-10)

I voted for HSV, b/c I think they are the coolest today but within the next 5 years V-series will blow them all out of the water.

400 HP CTS
500HP+ V12 Escalade
450HP+ XLR
500HP STS

Originally posted by Z28x
I voted for HSV, b/c I think they are the coolest today but within the next 5 years V-series will blow them all out of the water.

400 HP CTS
500HP+ V12 Escalade
450HP+ XLR
500HP STS

The thing that really pisses me off is that Holden is a GM division, and they have all the cool stuff, and we are stuck with cars like the Impala SS. To add insult to injury they are using Chevy V8's in all their performance cars.

Well, lets go down the line. It's not PVO because they really don't have anything yet and the same goes for GPX. SVT..............nah. SS..............no because they really don't have anything great yet, not to mention the fact that there is not even an SS Camaro. So that leaves HSV and V series. I voted for the V series because I love the new Caddys and the CTSv is just great, plus I know there will be other great V series comming. There is definatly a good argument for HSV because they actually have a good bit of cars out................but I still had to go with the V series.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Well, lets go down the line. It's not PVO because they really don't have anything yet and the same goes for GPX. SVT..............nah. SS..............no because they really don't have anything great yet, not to mention the fact that there is not even an SS Camaro. So that leaves HSV and V series. I voted for the V series because I love the new Caddys and the CTSv is just great, plus I know there will be other great V series comming. There is definatly a good argument for HSV because they actually have a good bit of cars out................but I still had to go with the V series.

If it wasn't for PVO there wouldn't be an SRT-4, Viper and future SRT-10. The Boneville GPX is comming out soon. I think the V-series is awsome. Are we going to see this much detail being put into the SS branded cars?

Well, I thought about the SRT-4 and that wasn't enough. There would be a Viper without PVO or not and the SRT-10, we will have to see. I know the Bonneville will be out very soon and it looks very promising too but it is not out yet or the finalized specs on the car. Also, nothing has been really stated about future vehicles for the GXP line after that(It is rumored to be the Grand Prix next but there is still little to no info on that). I still have really high hopes for the SS brand. I don't think it will be ignored and I believe it will be really good. I have to be patient, so I will give it a few years and reasses my opinion then.

The Aussies are kicking our ass! :lol:

After going down to Australia and actually seeing some of those HSV cars (that Maloo is cool), I'd have to say that HSV is tops on my list.

I voted SVT. They have a cool car in every niche from 4 banger to truck and theyre actually affordable. They make cool sports cars for the masses.

This is what I think Chevy is attempting to do with the SS badge, but IMO theyre sucking at it so far.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
Well, I thought about the SRT-4 and that wasn't enough. There would be a Viper without PVO or not and the SRT-10, we will have to see. I know the Bonneville will be out very soon and it looks very promising too but it is not out yet or the finalized specs on the car. Also, nothing has been really stated about future vehicles for the GXP line after that(It is rumored to be the Grand Prix next but there is still little to no info on that). I still have really high hopes for the SS brand. I don't think it will be ignored and I believe it will be really good. I have to be patient, so I will give it a few years and reasses my opinion then.

I really have high hopes for the SS brand but if you look at what is available now it isn't the best. Example the Impala SS costs just as much as a Grand Prix comp G. Why doesn't the SS have the same motor, brakes, ect? Why is this considered an SS? The SS doesn't have all the goodies that are readily available. I know that the GP is supposed to be a little more upscale than the Impi but they cost the same. So whats up with that?

I went with SVT.

For one thing...I own one. They're limited production high performance vehicles, AIMED DIRECTLY AT THE ENTHUSIAST, that are sold for a fair price in order to create excitement for the Ford brand. What a great deal for the enthusiast!

Every aspect of the vehicles which carry the SVT badge have been re-engineered for performance. Suspension, interior, brakes drivetrain, cosmetics.....the whole shebang! My SVT Contour includes larger HD Euro-spec brakes, extrude honed intake, specific exhaust, hotter cams, Cosworth wheels, specific light weight flywheel, heavy duty clutch, close ratio transaxle with steeper gears, specific gauges ....and on and on and on. In other words...it's "special"...and I like that.

V-series is awesome..but not in my price range.

SS is a merchadising label...with the minimum amount of performance required to sell high content vehicles.

HSV, is very cool but not available here.

GXP...nothing yet.

PVO...it's getting there.

Originally posted by Z284ever
I went with SVT.

For one thing...I own one. They're limited production high performance vehicles, AIMED DIRECTLY AT THE ENTHUSIAST, that are sold for a fair price in order to create excitement for the Ford brand. What a great deal for the enthusiast!

Every aspect of the vehicles which carry the SVT badge have been re-engineered for performance. Suspension, interior, brakes drivetrain, cosmetics.....the whole shebang! My SVT Contour includes larger HD Euro-spec brakes, extrude honed intake, specific exhaust, hotter cams, Cosworth wheels, specific light weight flywheel, heavy duty clutch, close ratio transaxle with steeper gears ....and on and on and on. In other words...it's "special"...and I like that.

V-series is awesome..but not in my price range.

SS is a merchadising label...with the minimum amout of performance required to sell high content vehicles.

HSV, is very cool but not available here.

GPX...nothing yet.

PVO...it's getting there.


That sums it up pretty well.

One problem I have with SVT is the fact that they are limited production. (Not sure why others here relish this) What's so great about that? Just means there are less of them around if you want one. I think everyone will pretty much agree that Z06 is a great car... it certainly is not limited in production!

The other thing I do not like about SVT is that only certain Ford dealers are SVT licensed.... The closest one to me is 50+ miles away. That tells me Ford doesn't want to sell SVT products to anyone in my neck of the woods... we must not be worth it, I guess. :blah:

limited production = jacked up prices and harder to get the exact car you want

The Cobra R might have well just been a concept car since you will never see one on the street.

I like all of them, but i went with SVT. They've got performance cars starting with the 18k SVT Focus all the way upto the super-exotic GT. The GT may not have an SVT badge, but it was SVT engineered.

They've got or will have:
*rumored upcoming 200+ Turbo focus, and current 170hp focus
*400-500hp Cobra (will have supercooler with additional 50-60hp)
*500hp Lightning (supercooler with additional 50-60hp)
*500+hp GT (supercooler with additional 50-60hp)
*93/94/00 Cobra R, and i'm sure a 500+hp version isn't too far away. I'm sure there are plans for another R down the line.
*And rumors of SVT expanding to other Ford vehicles

PVO, V-series, nor SS have that kind of lineup. HSV is only Aussi specific, V-series are spendy with the cheapest being a 53k CTS-V, SS really hasn't proved to be that big of an improvement over stock. PVO has really impressed me though with the SRT-4.

My rating:
1. SVT (Diverse lineup with BIG emphasis on performance and value)
2. PVO ( mainly due to the amazing SRT-4 and it's value)
3. V-series (only because i can't afford it and me not being a big fan of the new edge styling)
4. GPX (FWD, 6 banger, questionable styling)
5. SS (Good cars but no real improvement over z28 or Sierra C3)
6. HSV (Aussi only so this shouldn't even be listed)

Originally posted by RiceEating5.0

My rating:
............
4. GPX (FWD, 6 banger, questionable styling)


actually its FWD V8

info (http://h_body.home.att.net/pressinfo/2004gxp.htm)
Pic (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/large/1503-1.jpg)

Originally posted by Z28x
limited production = jacked up prices and harder to get the exact car you want


That can be said, but I've never heard of people having a problem finding the SVT car that they want. They are limited in production, but production numbers are large enough that you can go to a SVT dealer and see numerous cars of each model on the lot.

Originally posted by Z28x
actually its FWD V8

info (http://h_body.home.att.net/pressinfo/2004gxp.htm)
Pic (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/large/1503-1.jpg)

I must have had the Comp G in mind. Doesn't look bad either. That twin kidney pontiac signature look is what's messing that front end up.

The 285hp 4.4 is good but the Fwd is bad.

Well I guess I dont need to start a poll on American performance divisions.Its as plain as day.:lol: :bow:

Originally posted by bigsteve7
That can be said, but I've never heard of people having a problem finding the SVT car that they want. They are limited in production, but production numbers are large enough that you can go to a SVT dealer and see numerous cars of each model on the lot.

Exactly. The SVT's are attainable and their prices are far from "jacked up". You're still getting a whole of performance for your dollar.

I would have to say SVT is on top of the world right now too. The current Lightning will leave the SS Silverado like the Chevy is tied to a pole. The next Lightning is going to be a lot stouter than this one. Chevy has got to get back into the hi-po pickup game.....fast.

Dodge and Ford are going to own this market if Chevy doesn't do something....I would have to guess Ford will especially dominate as the Viper powered pickup's price goes up every time Dodge talks about it. If the SVT Lightning is as fast (Or my guess faster) who is gonna care that the more expensive Dodge has a Viper engine in it? And the current SS Silverado is waaaay overpriced. You could buy the much better driving F-150 Harley Hauler and smoke one. Kinda dissapointing. As far as trucks go SVT's reign is currently undisputed as they build the fastest truck in the world until the Viper powered Dodge shows up. And like I said the next Lightning will be at least as fast as the Dodge

Unfortunately, the Camaro is gone so SVT's Mustang Cobra loosley competes against the Vette in every trim and ...well...not much else. SVT builds the fastest car in the world under 40 grand and there isn't much left like it. That has to count for something. As a matter of fact there are dang few cars over 40 grand that will out accelerate a Cobra. Mods are cheap, easy, and endless. And jaw dropping effective as mildly tweaked Cobra's can pump 500hp to the rear wheels and the next Cobra is likely to pump 500hp at the crank right out of the box. Thank God for blowers.

The SVT Focus handles amazingly well.....drive one wether you like the breed or not.....it is unbelievable. Power in this instance left me kind of cold. The ST4 Neon will smoke a SVT Focus. Granted, on a road course the Focus handles so much better I don't think the Neon even with it's big power would win, but excuses don't win at a dragstrip. Actually I don't understand the absence of a turbo or a six under the SVT's hood as when driven the chassis scream out "I can handle way more power than this".
Also a sedan version would be welcome thank you.

The new Ford GT, badge or not as mentioned before a SVT developed vehicle...well. All due respect to the Viper there is nothing else rolling off of a US production line like the GT. Originally claiming 500hp, most sources...good ones, now say the GT makes "at least" 590hp. My bet is strap one to a dyno and you will watch that number top 600 at the crank. A lot more expensive than a Viper....Yes. But, in a league all by itself even if hp ends up "only" being 590.

Right now SVT wins with SRT second..and, in my opinion, SRT actually winning one category with it's SRT4. I agree HSV is awesome but as was said earlier you cannot get one here so why bother. The Caddy V-Series cars are nice but they aren't exactly offering cars priced to fit every budget. And, they aren't all about speed either. They are gaining on AMG, and Motorsport as luxury brand tuners though.

GXP.....not yet boys...sorry

If we were going by which was coolest historically I'd say SS but SS today is just BS.

Originally posted by Z28x
limited production = jacked up prices and harder to get the exact car you want


Unlimited production = jacked up prices on dealer stock, as dealers like to stock the most expensive, profitable models. Public perception of the cost of the cars may be much higher than the actual cost of low or mid level cars. Overall sales could decline based on low/mid models. SSound familliar?

Limited production is good just to keep the dealers ordering the cars most of us can afford. Just keep it limited enough so there is no artificially inflated pricing by the dealers (including markups) and provide real value for the money. SVT has this nailed.

He is right. And a limited real kick *** car is great for image.

Originally posted by WERM
Unlimited production = jacked up prices on dealer stock, as dealers like to stock the most expensive, profitable models. Public perception of the cost of the cars may be much higher than the actual cost of low or mid level cars. Overall sales could decline based on low/mid models. SSound familliar?

Limited production is good just to keep the dealers ordering the cars most of us can afford. Just keep it limited enough so there is no artificially inflated pricing by the dealers (including markups) and provide real value for the money. SVT has this nailed.

I'm not saying that SVT prices are jacked up, they seem fair for the upgrades you get. but one disadvantage to limited production is little or no discounting, you pay close to MSRP.

Limited production is OK if supply = demand. The GTO is limited, but to 18,000 units. That should be enough to give everyone the car they want at a fair price. But now look at the Cobra R, The Cobra R might have well just been a concept car since you will never see one on the street due to it being limited to 300 units.

The Bonneville GPX is such a good looking car that I would almost pick GPX because of that.

As far as SVT, I don't know. The SVT Focus is really a non player. It gets smoked by just about everything in it's class. The SVT Cobra up until 03' was not much of anything but Z28 fodder. The Contour, I don't know too much about it other than it is not here anymore and I saw a new Grand Am GT smoke one 2 weeks ago. So you have the Lightning which does accomplish what it is supposed to.
I don't know, they all have thier faults even if that is that the brand has too few vehicles at this time. I still have to argue the V-series becasue the CTSv impressed me so much so far and from what we have been hearing about future models, it looks even better.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
The Bonneville GPX is such a good looking car that I would almost pick GPX because of that.

As far as SVT, I don't know. The SVT Focus is really a non player. It gets smoked by just about everything in it's class.

I disagree. The SVT focus only stickers for $20,000 loaded and they are negotiable. The RSX, Celica GTS and other "hot hatchbacks" all go for mid $20's.

Bang for the buck its one of the best out there and when you read magazine reviews on it it usually comes out near the top.

EDIT - About your Cobra comment, dont forget that the Cobra offered you a reingineered car over a Mustang GT. You got a much better DOHC engine and IRS above all. For what it was it was a pretty good deal. They ran mid 13s and were supposedly much more civil on the street. (dunno, never driven one in person) I wouldnt really say it was second to the Z28...

I think anyone who feels that SVT is not the bencmark here...is viewing it all through a jaundiced eye.

None of these organizations would even exist if they weren't trying to grab a piece of the success that SVT pioneered....and yet none of them can do it exactly like SVT.

GM's response is the large, and perhaps less focused GMPD....which will oversee the V-series, Redline, GXP and SS.

Out of all of these...in my personal opinion , SS falls furthest from the mark for the enthusiast.

Overpriced and slightly faster versions of regular production vehicles....is not what John Coletti would allow an SVT emblem to be afixed to.

SS may have merit as a merchandising strategy....but it is no SVT.


EDIT: With all that said....I want HSV to design my next Z/28.

Originally posted by bigsteve7
I disagree. The SVT focus only stickers for $20,000 loaded and they are negotiable. The RSX, Celica GTS and other "hot hatchbacks" all go for mid $20's.

Bang for the buck its one of the best out there and when you read magazine reviews on it it usually comes out near the top.



Well, I will name a few that are faster for cheaper. Of course the Neon SRT-4, Mazdaspeed Protege, nissan Sentra SE-R spec V, I think there might be more too. All are faster for less money.

Originally posted by WERM
Unlimited production = jacked up prices on dealer stock, as dealers like to stock the most expensive, profitable models. Public perception of the cost of the cars may be much higher than the actual cost of low or mid level cars. Overall sales could decline based on low/mid models. SSound familliar?

Limited production is good just to keep the dealers ordering the cars most of us can afford. Just keep it limited enough so there is no artificially inflated pricing by the dealers (including markups) and provide real value for the money. SVT has this nailed.


So... if this is true (I think it's a reach, to be honest)... what good does this do for all the Ford dealers that are not SVT licensed? Which, is the majority of Ford dealers...

Originally posted by Z28x
I voted for HSV, b/c I think they are the coolest today but within the next 5 years V-series will blow them all out of the water.

400 HP CTS
500HP+ V12 Escalade
450HP+ XLR
500HP STS

I will just add a few rumours and facts to this ;) HSVs base car is now 285kw (382hp), with details to be released on the GTS to be released early next year. The cheapest HSV (Maloo) can be had for US$32k BTW ;) GTS might get a warmed up C4B (rumour est. 330kw ie. 442hp), similar to how the standard cars have got a warmed up LS1. But it is rumoured that when the HRT 427 project was cancelled, the engine part of the project wasn't ;) ie. C5R. It was rumoured in the local rags to make 420kw (563hp) road legal. It wouldn't supprise me if HSV wait for Ford to bring out a big HP GTHO, and smack'em back with the C5R in a GTS of sorts.

A bit off topic, but I don't want to start another thread. Holden insiders say the VE will look similar, inside and out, to the Audi A6 ;)

Thank you Z284ever.

The main point is that, without SVT, I doubt you would be seeing divisions like HSV or PVO, or even the V series.

As much as you may not like Ford, you have to admit that they are the ones who showed the manufacturing world that a huge conglomerate can make low production, niche products............ and make a profit doing so.

The SVT Focus's claim to fame is it's handling. While some other cars may be faster (not everyone in only concerned with the 1/4 mile), the Focus has the best all around package. Excellent handling with little ride sacrifice, excellent brakes, nice interior upgrades, and good power.

This is what SVT's main focus is............... the all around package.

Well those cars that I listed had better handling numbers too.
The V-series is a direct response to the BMW "M" class and the Mercedes AMG, both of which were around before SVT. It seems to me that the SVT formula is dead on with those other two, except that they are applied to less expensive vehicles.

By the way, when was the first HSV vehicle?

Numbers alone do not good handling make.

Just read all of the tests of the vehicles mentioned. You will see that pretty much EVERY editor will gush about the SVT Focus's handling.

Some vehicles may have good numbers, however, some of them are really not attainable for anyone except a professional driver. Some may have handling quirks that cause the vehicle to feel very unsettled in handling................ even while achieving good numbers.

I do agree that the Focus needs more power, and it will get it. I do not know if Ford is going to go with a turbo, or a supercharger. There have been test mules out with both.

Originally posted by SNEAKY NEIL
By the way, when was the first HSV vehicle?

Feb. 1988 with the VL Sedan SS Group A

I voted for the V-series mainly because the cars it is spawning are very appealing to me. However, I'm also fond of SVT.

Don't sign off the SVT focus just yet.

With the one mule we've seen with the huge bulging hood, the wild 305hp Turbo Focus RS2000 concept, the Turbo Focus RS being available in the Euro market already, and Colletti calling/taunting on the competition and vowing that the SVT focus will protect its turf; a much nicer Focus sounds like is already in the works. I think SVT and Colletti have made it very clear that they don't intend to just sit around. With Bill Ford letting them do what they want, they'll stay very competitive within their classes.

Who knows, they may even surprise us with an AWD 300hp varient of their successful Focus Rally car like Subaru and Mitsu has done.

Even the current SVT focus isn't bad. Prior to the SRT-4 coming out, it used to be ranked 1st among other sports compacts. A recent C&D test had the SVT Focus in 2nd place, with only the SRT-4 getting ranked higher. The Turbo mazda protege, Civic SI, and Sentra SE-R are still ranked behind the SVT.

PVO: Director John Fernendez
The only product they have made yet is the SRT-4. The new Viper was made before PVO came about. Infact, PVO in a way is Team Viper given a bigger assignment. They will make cars under the SRT name for Dodge and limited or special editions for the Chrysler division.

I think the idea there is to go toe to toe with SVT in creating the quiest cars ever made. There is a personal friendly competition between the heads of both, so it should be interesting. I can hear it now:

PVO's CEO:"The SRT-10 now takes the mantel of the world's fastest truck"

SVT's CEO:"Only because you waited till the year we didn't make a Lightning...... by the way, how much are you selling those things for anyway? $32,000? (sarcasm)"

If you know the 2 of them, you know this conversation is pretty close to realistic. :D

GM Performance Division (GXP/SS/V/Redline): Executive Director Mark Reuss
This is all part of GM's performance division, a single entity. The only products so far out of them is the upcomming CTSv, Saturn's Redlines, and the supercharged Monte Carlo and Impala SS. The Bonneville GXP comes this winter. The GXP/SS/V are just model designations for the respective car division. Unlike the others, GMPD also runs concept cars, so next year when you are looking at GM's new concepts, it came through them.

They aren't just a hot rod organization like the others, and aren't especially focused on being best in performance. Theirs is a more measured approach, based on the division they are making the vehicle for and it's purpose. To see an example, look at the Silverado SS. The more powerful 6.0 comming won't be much quicker either. At the same time, the Supercharged Solstice is supposed to be blisteringly quick.

HSV: Managing Director John Crennan,
Holden Special Vehicles is basically a racing division that also makes cars for the street down under, unlike any other division mentioned. The closest comparason is Ford's Performance Division that covers Ford's race efforts as well as SVT.

SVT: Director of Programs John Coletti
Of all US "Performance" programs, this one is actually run by someone who has gasoline in his blood. Besides a history in Drag Racing, John Coletti also can be credited with keeping the Mustang alive when in the early 90s CEOs Don Peterson then Alex Trottman tasked him with quietly finding a way to keep Mustang alive. He's well versed in doing some incredible things on the cheap.

SVT is now under Ford's Performance Division that covers Racing, Aftermarket Products, and SVT which develops cars only for the Ford name (Lincoln, Mercury, and non SVT cars like the Mach1 are done under FPD, not SVT). SVT is closest to HSV in that they are an entity to themselves, and are responsible for making and marketing their own products! You buy an SVT product, and you have almost your own dealer & service network. You can directly contact the division on questions and issues, and the vehicles they make hold their value.

Unlike GMPD, SVT's motto is each model is faster than the one before it, and SVT's and PVO are about to get into a major slugfest over their trucks (both have stated their truck will beat the other's) and the next Cobra is likely to be faster than the next Corvette.

Overall, I'd place my vote with SVT as the best "Performance Division" because of their support network, the fact that they actually make their own profits, and the fact they have hand picked car guys and racers actually running the place. They have had support from their company for years instead of being an afterthought.

PVO's only man-on-the-street car is the SRT-4, GMPD only makes made to order cars based on what each division manages to get approved by GM's upper management & product people, and HSV's going to be a GTO and Chevy sedan aftermarket supplier here in the US for the immediate future.

I can't believe that people didn't vote for PVO but voted for SS. It is pretty obvious to me that the SRT-4 is more of a performance vehicle than any SS model that is currently available. I know this is a Camaro board but please lets be impartial and speak the truth.

I just wanted to make a comparison between the Grand Prix Comp G and the Impala SS. This comparison is to show that the SS choice in the poll doesn't deserve any of the votes it has received. I know this is a Camaro board but I thought we could impartial. I guess not. Iam not against SS but Chevrolet has to do a better job.

The GP comp G (not even the GPX version....if there will even be one)
3800 V6 260hp/280ft-lbs
17" lightwieght wheels
Tap shift
3.29 axle ratio
HUD
Big brakes
Revised suspension

The Impala SS
3800 V6 240hp/280ft-lbs
17" wheels
2.93 axle ratio
Big brakes
Revised suspension

GP comp G $30,045
options
Comp G
Sunroof
Premium sound
Leather

Impala SS $30,420
options:
SS group 2
sunroof
premium sound
(leather is standard)

As you can see the Impala SS can't even compete with the standard GP much less a GPX version if it ever comes out.
The GP offers more performance equipment than the SS for a lower price. I don't see any reason what so ever for the Impala not to have all the extra performance equipment and still cost more. So what do you think of SS now?

Originally posted by steves
I can't believe that people didn't vote for PVO but voted for SS. It is pretty obvious to me that the SRT-4 is more of a performance vehicle than any SS model that is currently available. I know this is a Camaro board but please lets be impartial and speak the truth.

Don't get too upset yet. The SS name has been around for 40+ years, while PVO is still unknown to anyone who doesn't keep up with the industry. Besides, I don't know why we are comparing PVO to SS anyway. SS is a division designation, PVO does vehicles for the whole organization. SS and SRT is a better comparison.

As much as I like Chevy, I'm going to have to say SVT. I think Chevy has been throwing around the SS badge all over the place.

Originally posted by guionM
Don't get too upset yet. The SS name has been around for 40+ years, while PVO is still unknown to anyone who doesn't keep up with the industry. Besides, I don't know why we are comparing PVO to SS anyway. SS is a division designation, PVO does vehicles for the whole organization. SS and SRT is a better comparison.


SS has been around for 40 years and in the past the performance options that were available on the SS package were great. Now I think they are doing a crappy job. Just look at my example above there is no excuse for this. I know that SS is a model designation like SRT. I think that Chevrolet is putting SS on all their "special" cars like Ford with SVT Dodge with PVO and Cadillac with the V. So that is why Iam comparing the two.

guionM-------FPG---Ford Performance Group


:D ;) I am aware of you knowing it.But Im sure you like to be exact.:bow:

Originally posted by steves
SS has been around for 40 years and in the past the performance options that were available on the SS package were great. Now I think they are doing a crappy job. Just look at my example above there is no excuse for this. I know that SS is a model designation like SRT. I think that Chevrolet is putting SS on all their "special" cars like Ford with SVT Dodge with PVO and Cadillac with the V. So that is why Iam comparing the two.

I also feel that Chevrolet is watering down the SS name, with the idea that putting those 2 letters on everything without anything special to back it up (performance or special dealer network) will create the same mystique SVT does, while charging an extra arm for it in the process.

SVT is the only performance group that puts it's name on it's cars. Both PVO and GMPD create performance cars for multiple divisions.


Originally posted by guess who
guionM-------FPG---Ford Performance Group


:D ;) I am aware of you knowing it.But Im sure you like to be exact.:bow:

My keyboard must have stuck again. ;)

There is nothing wrong with voting for SS over GXP.

The question is "which is cooler", not "which performs the best". If that were the question, why even have a poll?

It's an opinion .


For the record... I voted V-Series.

Originally posted by Darth Xed
There is nothing wrong with voting for SS over GXP.

The question is "which is cooler", not "which performs the best". If that were the question, why even have a poll?

It's an opinion .


For the record... I voted V-Series.

The SS might look a little better, but being short changed in the performance department isn't cool. Especially when the GP costs less and all the parts are readily available.

Originally posted by steves
The SS might look a little better, but being short changed in the performance department isn't cool. Especially when the GP costs less and all the parts are readily available.


That is your opinion... nothing wrong with that, but there is nothing wrong with someone thinking the SS's are cooler.

Apparently more people thought Mustangs were cooler than Camaros recently... even though Mustang was at a performance disadvantage for quite a long time.

Yes, the Mustang was at a performance (hp and speed) disadvantage to the Camaro and Firebird for some time between the 93 and 02 model years. But, I think after seeing Ford's success with the 5.0 Mustang during the late eighties and early ninties....GM was so determined not to play second fiddle on performance image that they forgot to make the F-body a really good car, and not just a reall good muscle car.

A very good friend of mine has a 2000 or 2002 WS6 T/A....The one with the four scoops in the fron of the hood, as if it were wearing bi-focals. The car is awesome, and he is a "knowledgeable" gearhead in the extreme. The man drag races semi professionally..and is very good at it. He and his brother are also the largest part of the race cars (1968 Camaro) "pit crew"

First problem, and it has been hashed out so many times but it is worth pointing out again. The cat hump in the passenger well is exactly where I want put my feet. Nowhere else is comfortable. To all this a minor oversite would be akin to calling a tattoo on Kathy Irelands forehead a slight problem.

Build quality, while much improved, is still very, very suspect. I have still, never seen a F-Body over about three years old that had doors that swung right. And, the engine is halfway under the dash? This is okay on a Cavalier, but folks want to work on this car and that is a hassle that, while it can be overcome....why?

My racing buddy with the WS6...has done nothing but a K&N filter. Why? He said he could mess with the motor, but it just isn't worth the hassle. I qoute directly here "If I was going to build a hot street car I would start with a Mustang because it is so much easier to work on" He went on to mention that while prior to the new Mach 1 and Cobra the F-Body was faster, that doesn't really matter much when you are gonna rebuild everything anyway. Now with no power advantage stock, the F-Body is still harder to work on?

Motor Trend compared the last Z28 and a 2002 Cobra, and the Cobra won. Why? The Cobra was just a much better car than the F-body. and a better all around performance car.I can always add power, pretty easilt, to a GT, Mach 1 , or Cobra and make it faster. Taking that cat convt. hump out of a F-body so my legs fit is just ridiculous.

I hope the F-Body does come back. But, GM is gonna have to put more thought into it than they did in 93.

Originally posted by jsaylor

I hope the F-Body does come back. But, GM is gonna have to put more thought into it than they did in 93.

I agree. ALOT MORE THOUGHT!

Wow look at all those SVT votes. I wonder what the problem is this is a Camaro board right?

Originally posted by steves
Wow look at all those SVT votes. I wonder what the problem is this is a Camaro board right?

Just because it's a Camaro board doesn't mean we can't be truthful and objective.

SVT runs and finances itself. It chooses which dealers sell & service their cars by high customer satisfaction. They have what is in essence their own customer service network. They don't stick their name on everything they can, but they don't price their vehicles into the stratosphere either. SVT means a unique engine (save the current Focus ;)) & suspension, not an appearance package. Finally, whereas GMPD & PVO were formed to create special cars for various divisions, SVT runs, finances, & markets itself, as well as sell it's vehicles with it's own name attatached.

Being that HSV isn't available here in the US, SVT is simply the better performance group, that's all.

Originally posted by guionM
Just because it's a Camaro board doesn't mean we can't be truthful and objective.


I like comming on this board because out of all the other boards I've gone on this one is the most truthful and objective for the most part, and there are alot of intelligent people here. I might not see eye to eye with everyone but do you really believe that everyone is truthful and objective 100% of the time?