Well that's a whole different thing. All I would ask is how we define "making power" in relationship to those nice, broad RPM ranges. Because if a Civic really is making serious power over a 5000 RPM range, it's gonna fly down the track and kick my Z28's butt up between it's ears.

The point I have wanted to make is about the problems of a narrow torque band vs high peak readings, which seems like a pretty common scenario in aftermarket turbo 4 bangers. It seems like some of these tuners are going after the big number at the expense of real useable power. Lots of choices there, like cam for one. I'm not sure why that point, that seems pretty obvious to me, is making people nuts. High peak figures make great bragging material, but if they're only in a narrow band, it's going to be tough to make it show up in the ET.

When it comes to imports, I think a lot of people think it's traction issue because of the myth about hooking up a FWD. But FWDs can hook up every bit as good as an fbody, when they're set up right. It's not just that.

Your quoted RPM figures above are really wide, as far as the power band. There is zero argument from me that a lightweight car delivering reasonably high torque across 5000 RPM is gonna fly. You could move that range higher or lower by 1000 or 1500 RPM and it wouldn't really matter much, as long as you matched up your gearing.

So now the only question I have is, can you point us to any dyno sheets that look like that? I'm not trying to be smart. I'd love to see a 2500 lb car making about 250+ ft-lbs of torque over about 5000 RPM, so I can see how they did it. Because that would run like a monster, and I might have to try and build one myself.

 

i've seen 10 second civics, promod cars, and STILL they stumble from a dig, then 3 seconds later one word: FAST FORWARD.

this happens alot with 4 cyl imports specially, where the power doesn't translate to 1/4 mile times.

all that means is they spent alot of money, but their tuning skills are still lacking.

with that power, properly set up, they will and have run the times they should.

like that 8.5 second 1st gen DSM in HOT ROD mag.
ULTIMA GTR.

 

Best Kill Ever!

Oh wait, I'm still waiting to read about an actual race in this thread.

 

I guess it's more of a QWERTY race.

 

Even better, I've "been around" long enough to know it's useless to argue on the internet. I also didn't join a message board and then see what I could stir up. I've been doing the internet car thing for over 12 years. I'm beyond petty arguing.

More on topic, if a car has only a 3k rpm band where it makes power, but its gearing keeps it in that band, it'll go just as fast as a car that makes killer torque from idle to redline. Get caught out of that band though and you're toast, like a Honda S2000 that goes 0-60 in the 5's unless you don't launch it from 7k rpm in which case it takes over 11 seconds to reach 60.

 

i do have to admit those were some pretty peaky dyno graphs on that site. ive seen lots of others that are 2x4 flat. they look like a perfect piece of lumber.

lets look at this example shall we?

http://www.solid-technology.com/sean...oannotated.jpg

as you can see it made 522.50whp and 360.80wtq. the first thing you should note is that its peak torque should be HIGHER but wasnt because of tire spin on the dyno. having said that, lets disect the dyno graph.

as you can see that car made 300whp OR MORE from about 5600 rpms till they shut it down at just under 9000 rpms. lets call it 8700 rpms. they made over 300whp for 3100rpms. thats pretty damn good. now at this point i would look at the torque numbers but since there was wheel spin i feel that this particular dyno chart isnt a prime example.

here is a GREAT example.

http://www.duke.edu/~enb2/James/prelude/dyno0001.jpg

that car makes 300whp from 4100 till they shut it down at 6500. also of note here is the torque this motor made, 300+wtq from 3800 rpms till about 6200. it makes a peak of 409 lb ft of torque! here is his mods list...

-H23
-GE Sleeved block
-Venolia Pistons 8.8:1
-Pauter rods
-Ported intake manifold with secondary butterflies removed
-Portflow Head w/P&P , Titanium retainers, custom dual valve springs,
-Quaife LSD
- T3/T04B .63 A/R Turbine Housing
Stage III Turbine, Standard T04B Compressor Housing
V Trim Compressor Wheel (maybe) b super v

-SFP Manifold
-Hondata 3b w/p74ecu.
-AEM fuel rail
-Aeromotive FPR
-Tial 35mm hybrid

these are just a couple of the MANY examples out there of nice flat dyno charts (the latter being more of the norm as far as power curves go). if you want more i can get you more.

 

h22 and h23's usually make more tq than hp the way v8's do and they usually make it fast.

 

I don't see anything in my post about having a problem with it I was just trying to clairfy what others were trying to say. OTOH power like that is all personal preferance. I would rather have a car with power down low in the rpms rather than 4500+ because when your on the street going slow your just going to get walked on. Kinda like the problem S2000's have. They are quick but they need to revv. Light to light they get wasted by many less powerful cars.

 

'


If you were on the internet in 1992, you were way ahead of your time.

But back to topic, your example doesn't account for one thing. You have to shift more often to keep a narrower power band in it's sweet spot. Adding even 1 extra shift to the quarter mile does not help at all. If you have an M6 LT1, you can add 1 more gear shift to your next 1/4 mile run without taking the car out of it's power band, in theory. Add the extra shift and see how it hits your ET. It'll probably cost you some tenths.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, really. After all, last time I checked this is an fbody forum and I'm just pointing out a relevant issue, with some pretty decent facts backing me up including some dyno sheets. When import drivers start talking smack about their HP and TQ numbers, as they have been to me lately ("I've got 457 HP and my car only weighs 2800 lbs, DUDE! I would kill you!"), there tends to be a big difference in what their dyno numbers mean at the track vs ours. I saw some graphs and ETs that illustrated exactly what I'm talking about (re: a prelude vs LS1 video posted in this forum, BTW.)

Is that so hard to get?

The fact that I used the word "ricemobile" on a camaro forum seemed to get some people worked up, most of whom happen to own a 4 cylinder engine somewhere. I'll try and be more politically correct next time. But the basis of my contention is pretty solid, and I have yet to see anybody use hard facts to tell me why a narrow power band, which was all over the original dyno sheets I used, is a good idea. I just think some guys who own 4 cylinders are pissed I pointed it out, frankly.

 

actually if you are geared correctly you WONT need to shift that extra time. if you are geared correctly you will cross the finish line as close as possible to your peak HP.

i said in the reply i made with the graphs that for some reason that site has very sh*tty dyno sheets. they are very peaky. look at the other example i provided. its VERY flat.

and hsyr: you really dont know anything about how fast a turbo civic revs do you?

 

Thanks for going to the trouble to find those. The first one with the wheels spinning will forever be a mystery, I guess. Who knows what the numbers were supposed to be?

That Prelude dyno looks good. He's got his electronics dialed in great. His A/F is nailed. Check out the boost. Spools up and parks right at 20. At 3000 lbs, that's probably a pretty fast car.

Now, I'm not trying to argue just for fun, but I still have to say that even this Prelude makes it's power in a band less than 2500 RPM wide. It's ruler flat inside that RPM range, but it's still only 2500 RPM wide compared to a typical modded LT1 like THIS ONE we were talking about before. The big equalizer here is that the heavy car has broader torque which makes it easier to put to the ground, while the narrower torque car is a good bit lighter. If that wasn't true, a 4 banger with anywhere close to the same peak HP and TQ would kill the heavy V8.

Hey, while we're at it. I would love to look at the tranny and final drive ratios for the slow vs fast modded high HP 4 bangers, but I bet there's no easy way to do that.

In any event, thanks for stating cool, 87camracer. I appreciate it.

 

Again, go back and read what I posted. I never once said anything about a turbo civic revving slow. I simply said a S2000 ( i mean stock not super large turbo) against a wrx or something for an example racing light to light the S2K will get wasted. You can't deny it! They need to rev!

 

This is what happens when peaky powered turbo cars races against big down low tq motors in street races. its still racing. wheter its your thing or not. if 1/4 mile at the strip is your comfort zone thats ok. I personally dont like taking either of my cars to the track, but they both see street races. my racing benefits greatly from peaky power bands

 

I'll grant you that a properly modded Supra is a heckuva nice ride. They're fast bone stock, and take to mods really well. The stock bottom end is astoundingly strong and until you start blowing up head gaskets, you can add massive boost to those things. In the video, it looks like only the LT1 383 and the modded RT-10 gave him any real trouble. Weird how bad he bounced all the vettes except the ZR1. Of course, I doubt he's going to post any videos where somebody handed him his own head on a platter, either. And obviously, going from a freeway roll is a big help as it lets the Supra operate spooled up to full boost the whole time.

BUT...........

The Supra is a 6 cylinder engine with close to double the displacement of the mostly Civics, Preludes and Integras we are talking about in this thread. Apples and oranges. And I'm betting the torque curve is not as spiky as the turbo 4 bangers, either, which might help make my point. But a word to the wise. Watch out for a well modded Supra, unless you are running a serious engine and even then, if he knows what he's doing with his car, you probably better plan to spray if you want to win. There are Supras running around on the street with 600+ rwhp. Toyota did that one right.

 

Little info on this race here. Civic was at 8psi. which is his low boost. t/a was supposed to honk 3 times. but the t/a punched on the second honk here is the

RACE!

I can also show you it running an 11 sec z06 too if you like. and a 650hp Supra getting wasted by it.

GSR vs R6

cammed Ls1 z28 vs civic

that same peaky 522 hp GSR on that site would destroy most fbodies in my races (street).. would not do as well in your races.(drag strip) its whatever you like.