body strength withough a cage
 

is there anyway i can get the strengh of a cage, without having to weld in a cage?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

how bout a bolt in cage?

is it the welding you don't want of the bulk of the cage?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

its the actual cage. i dont want to cut holes in the panels, or having the 'ugliness' of a cage. Also, i want to be able to use the back seats. When i am done my build up, i will probally be putting down aourn 550-600 rwhp, and a 10 sec. 1/4. with some sticky tires. Gonna re-inforce the suspesion with all the necessoary parts, and i am gonna extra-weld in my SLP sfc's. I just want the strength of a cage (tourque factor) without the bulk inside.

Can a re-inforce the frame anyway?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

You do know that you will not be able to run 10 sec. 1/4's without at least a five point rollbar, right?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

I think a cage addes to the racey look of the car. But that's JMO. :)

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Yes, i am aware. I will get 1 run, and then i will have to leave. Thats all i want.

Do they make any cages that dont require you to rip apart the center?

also, correct me if i am wrong, but didnt the NHRA change the mandatory roll cage rule to 11.499 or lower?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Yes, they did change that rule. However as long as you haven't altered the stock firewall or floor, you can run as quick as 10.00 with just a roll bar.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

I have not modified the structure of hte car. I can just have a roll bar behind the front seats and taht will be ok? Can i hide that in the panels and roof?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Your'e still gonna need two rear bars and at least one front down bar on the driver's side. Hense the five point rollbar. I don't see any way you could hide a roll bar inside the roof and panels

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

yea, thats what i thought, but im trying to avoid the hole cage thing. regardless of how fast it is, i am still going to drive it around town. and dont want to be climbing over a bar everytime i go cruising.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Well back seat being utilized I guess is in the eye of the beholder, but I never gave a thought to sticking anybody back there LOL!

Hve you thought about installing hinged door bars with quick release pins on both hinge side and anchor point side...this way you can easily remove the door bars for times your not at the track or dont want that racey look. You could rig something up also for the rear cross bar between the hoop along the removable lines. The rear bars can easily be bent to hug the roof/hatch area tightly so as not to hinder that "back seat" space too much.

Nothing beats the strength and SAFETY of a roll cage, but I understand your veiw of the car and the PITA factor the cage adds to it...all too well:) But I've seen in person quite a few accidents at the track at the speeds
(and naturally faster) that your shooting for and it aint pretty should somthing happen, and believe me it happens alot faster than you think even if your the worlds safest and best driver...if it happens and you lose control-you will not have a second chance.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Yeah, IHI took the words right out of my keyboard. Going 10s even once at 125-130 mph without the proper safety equipment is not a good idea. All it takes is one failure, mistake, debris on the track, etc, etc..all of the above involving the person in the next lane, etc and you could die. An accident of any kind at speeds over 100 is catastrophic...

I know its a pain to have a roll bar, but there are many companies that can fab you a great custom lightweight chrome moly 6 point bar with swing outs or removable door bars that tucks up nice and tight and won't detract from the look of the car, but will add tons of safety and, if done right, will also help stiffen the car and add to the suspensions effectiveness.

I'm .02 from needing a bar, but with Kooks LTs and an EWP coming soon, that will probably change...I've already got plans for the roll bar...

--Alan

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

The problem I see is he wants to use his back seat. Swing out door bars are perfectly legal, but a removable cross bar is not. It says right in the rulebook, and I'm quoting:

"Crossbar and rear braces must be welded to the main hoop"

Having that crossbar back there makes the rear seat pretty much unuseable.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

I understand that, but stated from his earlier posts, this will not be a race car. More of a street killer that may go out a few times and try for a best pass like 90% of the test and tuners. A removable cross bar will easily pass Sat afternoon T&T as it'd be alot better than the other option of having nothing at all. there are alot of "pro street" type cars running this set-up...they want the looks of a race car without the headaches of getting into/out of and working on interior stuff.

I've also seen plenty of guys in this situation not run any cross bar at all. Just a hoop and rear bars thnking it's doing something.:confused:

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Can anyone post some pics of thier cage set-up.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

is it at all possible for the rear crossbar to be positioned farther back to right where the backseat is, or maybe just slightly behind it where the trunk hump is? Just curious, as i haven't had any experience with one yet.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Unless its a track only car you shouldn't have a cage in it unless you wear a helmet ALL THE TIME ! . Contrary to popular belief if you have a roll bar or cage in the car you are more likely to receive a severe injury from hitting your head on the cage.

GM and other automakers spend millions making cars impact friendly on the inside and then we go and install all kinds of bone breaking upgrades:D

John

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

I think I'll take a cage when the steering shaft come OUT OF the steering box at 120mph, weave across the track, bounce off competitors guardrail, spin 180* and hit his guardrail at estimated 120+mph-BACKWARDS!!! Things happen very quick and it's better to be over protected...why do you think race cars are built the way they are for function and SAFETY!!
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...vacrash010.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...vacrash011.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...vacrash012.jpg

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

If that's the case, then you shouldn't have a car that has the capability of running faster than 11.49 on the street EVER, unless you wear a helmet all the time! ;)

Hey, my car has a six point with no swing outs, and I've gotten so used to jumping in and out that the roll bar is no impediment whatsoever anymore. In addition, my rear seat is still functional thanks to a roll bar option from S&W racecar that retains the rear seat. I'm now considering adding a second crossbrace behind the rear seats and two smaller 5-point race harnesses for the rear two seats, actually. Maybe I'll take John's advice and buy three additional full-face helmets for the street as well!

http://www.ws6transam.org/rollbar_installed.jpg

BTW, the rollbar now is fully covered with padding so dont wig out, John!

..and as for stiffness: The car is now so rigid that the car usually sits on only three of the four jackstands. It's hard to adjust jackstands so that they are all the same height, since the undercarriage is asymetrical in the front. This never was a problem before since the car would usually "settle" onto the jackstands. Now however, it's as rigid as an I-beam so it doesnt bend anymore. I can jack the car up by the subframe connectors and still open and close doors as if its sitting on the ground.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

talk about being sore the next morning.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

And here's the rest of the story since he was pitted right next to us.

The guy driving at time of accident USED to own the car, but had sole it weeks prior with the new car owner allowing him to finish the season in it since he was doing rather well, think the new owner wanted his money back??

I asked the guy if he was luck enough to black out and he laughed and said "I wish", said he saw EVERY hit coming when it was cartwheeling once it jumping over the guardrail, "every hit hurt" was how he put it. BUT he walked away with no injuried other than some bruised body parts and ego.

Try that in a factory car do just 100 mph and unless your on gods good side that day...your dead, plain and simple. Too much macho BS and ingornace thinking it will never happen to them, ask what every driver that got into an accident thought and they'll tell ya the say thing, "never thought it'd happen to me" fact of the matter-YOU dont even need to screw up, the other guy can have something go wrong and cross paths and leave you in a world of hurt...anybody remember the pro stock race last year?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Relax guys,
Its just most people don't realize a cage is only safer if you wear the gear.
You can't drive a car at the track without a helmat , so at the track a definate plus.
I just see and hear about cars with cages and rear seats, and the rear seat is dangerous even with padded tubing. Front not much better depending on how far back overhead tube is.
In Ontario have seen charges laid by police for having a roll cage.

John

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Personally John, I think the danger of a roll cage is overblown. If the roll hoop isn't there during impact, your head has another two or three inches before contacting the steel of the pillar. An automobile accident is violent any way you look at it, though there is merit to the argument on the dangers of a crossbar to rear seat passengers. I've got a design for a flush-mounted flange that would make my crossbar removable for street use but I haven't gotten around to paying to have it machined or welded into place. ...maybe next year.

However, I think the benefit of a side bar and it's ability to keep the other car OUT of my lap in the event of a broadside collision outweighs the danger of my noggin knockin on the padded roll hoop.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

i think im just gonna shoot for an 11.5 street warrior and ditch the cage. Once i have a c6 in the drive way, then ill put in a cage and make it a destroyer. :cool:

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

A 6-point bar is not a cage.... it's just a roll-bar.. so please stop refering it to a roll-cage... a cage is atleast a 10-point and contains a halo-bar and front down bars...

Also, who uses your back-seat anyways? I know I can't fit anyone back there in any sorts of comfort on the PS side with the seat moved up, yet alone behind the drivers seat... that is unless it's a paraplegic midget...

Safety is not something to screw with... period...

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

sorry i wasnt politically correct enough for you, but no one has ever defined that to me. i figure a roll bar (not the sigular use of bar, not barS) meant ONE bar, not 6. but i do, on occasion, have people in my back seats. ususally not for a long trip.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Its not a matter of being "politically" correct, its a matter of being "technically" correct. It was clearly explained in one of the earlier responses to your post that you need a 5-point roll bar to run 10's. seeya also explained the differences between the bar and the cage, with regard to the NHRA requirments..... 11.49-seconds, etc. Apparently you missed the point in both those posts.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

i didnt miss any points. just there is no reason to jump down someones throat for the misconception of a roll bar vs. roll cage. i meant the same thing, just used the wrong term. that was all i missed. if you look before i also posted

"i think im just gonna shoot for an 11.5 street warrior and ditch the cage."

Meaning, i am gonna keep the car above the 11.499 mark so i do not have to put in a roll bar. I am fully aware that if i run 11.499 or lower i am going to have a 6 point roll bar. That is why i posted this thread, to see if there was any way around it. There isnt.

also, if you look further down in the post, i was the one that brough up the 11.499 rule. so how could i miss it?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Actually, you need a 5-point roll bar to run under 11.50.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

i know this, but if i am gonna cut up the car, i might as well ad the 6th.

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

If you're concerned about clearances and getting in & out of the vehicle, why not go with a Wolfe Racecraft cage? They have "low slung" door bars that makes it easier to get in & out of the vehicle. Also, they have a (free) option for the rear bars to mount "over-the-seat", instead of having to cut holes in the interior panels...

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

can i still get people in the back seats? what about ttops? Any pics or links?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Here's a link to their product.

http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=235

Here's a link to their gallery:

http://www.wolferacecraft.com/install/fbod/fbodbar.aspx

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

they look good. and with the removable cross bar...i could possibly get some people in the back.

ill worry about this when i approace the 11.5 mark. still gotta get the blower:D

thanks!

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

removeable cross-bars are not NHRA Legal....

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

I am aware of this.

it all sux. whats the point of having a bar if its not NHRA legal...:mad:

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

Well, depending on how lax your local dragstrip is, they may not even look close enough to see if your rollcage has a removable center bar. I know my local dragstrip doesn't look that closely...

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

one is...they wouldnt know the difference between pvc and steel. but the other is pretty strict.

also, what is the rule with a harness...do you need a 5 point harness?

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

I don't think so, but don't quote me...

Re: body strength withough a cage
 

From the NHRA rule book:
And, the harness is only good for 2 years from the date of manufacture, unless is has been recertified by the manufacturer.

http://www.injuneer.com/images/photo.../DCP03791a.jpg