Long time.. no hear. Missed you buddy,
Now back to the story. Mike you are missing my point. The majority of your paint protection came with your car ( clearcoat with its protective elements). No matter what you place on top of this clearcoat it is very minor and short-lived protection against extreme environment assault ( acid rain, birds, sap etc). Maybe a sealant may protect for a few hours more from direct severe attacks verse a carnuaba ( preventing acid rain etching) but in terms of overall finish protection on an equally detailed car the difference is small.
How did you equate usage of a sealant and not being a detailing fanatic. I stated that if one does not desire to constantly detail his/her vehicle that a sealant is the way to go. But to say a sealanted car is measurably better protected than a frequently carnauba'd car is unverifiable ( beading.. new paint beads, measure thickness of sealant..too thin to measure). Do not get me wrong, if my cars were exposed to the elements or had to sit outdoors everyday at work I would opt for that added protection. As I also stated, the car I drive everyday is protected by Zaino. Every little bit helps in those type of situation.
Everybody does not need extreme or longterm protection. It is a nice insurance policy if detailing activity was curtailed for other life's activities but not at the sacrifice of an appearance that I personally desire.

 

OK, I think I better understand your point. But, now I'm confused again. A sealant only protects for a few hours?? Whoa! I always thought that the film of polymer (or wax) left on the car would protect the clear and paint for as long as it remained on the car. I don't understand how a sealant would only protect for a few hours, when on the stronger sealants the polymer film can last for months keeping the actual paint surface safe from envirmental harm. I mean I've used DAWN and clay over sealants before and the protection remained intact, whereas with less durable products this would destroy the protective barrier immediately. If a polymer can hold up to a strong alkaline and a claying, I know it's good enough to protect my finish longer than a few hours.

I do think that a sealent'd car is more protected than a carnauba'd car. How? Well, I've seen the effects of bird droppings, acid rain, spotting, etc on less durable waxes and how it almost immediatey eats through the wax, whereas when using a sealant the damage (if any at all) is very minimal. I don't think I've had a single instance of bird or acid etching since using polymers, but sadly the same isn't true for waxes. So, IMHO, I think it is rather easy to document that polymers offer a much stronger barrier than waxes. In my line of thinking, it's like this....a polymer is like a bullet proof vest for the paint, whereas a wax is like wearing an ordinary heavy coat and trying to stop a bullet. One is going to let the bullet through, one isn't, hopefully.

I do completely agree that everyone's situation is different and that not everyone will require the toughest protection out there. For instance, true show cars don't need too much in the way of protection, and carnauba and oils would easliy suffice. Unfortunately, my car sits outside all day and is garaged at night, so even though I love detailing the car, I still want the most durable (longest lasting) product I can find as a shield against the elements. With the small amounts of actual carnauba wax or other waxes in most products, I couldn't and don't trust this as adequate protection.

Well, anyhow, good to hear from you blkZ! I though you had abandoned us here. I know you have been doing some testing with BlackFire, how's that coming along? I'm going to try a few new products this year (and have already started actually) mostly sealants and/or polymer varieties. The problem is that I'm quickly running out of stuff to try!

Welp, see ya 'round!

 

I agree with the bird droppings part. I've seen the difference it makes. Before I found Zaino I would park my car under a tree and when it got crapped on you could still see it for days after I washed it. I'm sure its because it ate up the wax under it. With Zaino on the car I don't get the same problem. The birds still crap on it once in awhile but I don't get a mark that stays long after I've wiped the crap off.


Question for you Mike... If you were to enter a car into a show then what would you use on it? Would you layer a ton of Z on it or would you go for the carnauba route? I figure that if it only needs to be mind blowing for a few hours then you can probably get better looks out of a carnauba than Z. Am I too far off on that? Or do you feel that Zaino would look better for show purposes. I know it would look better a few days after the show, but just for a short time which would you use?

 

Well, I'm still not sure why my posts are of any benefit to you, but here you go....

For show prep, my routine wouldn't be all that different, just more intense. Everyone has their own "show secrets" so I'm gonna generalize here for the most part. Strictly speaking of the exterior paint preparation only, I'd start a day or two before the show with a thorough claying. I'd follow with my favorite paint cleaner, (no SMR necessary), follow with a glaze of my choice, and follow that with a wash. Then I'd give a good Z6ing and apply a few coats of ZFX back to back. I'd probably follow that up with a coat or two of another product or products depending on time and intensity of competition. As far as those final products go....my secret....sorry. Everyone has their own final prep before the show, so I can't tell you what's right or wrong. I've even seen cleaner waxes and pure glazes being used before shows, not that I agree with that....but it's whatever floats your boat.

 

Yeah, I'll bet....

 

Hmmm... I'm bored tonight so let me get to work...

BTW, it has come out from P21S and S100 are the same products.

Your paint really doesn't need any extra UV protection. The clearcoat provides the UV protection, which is why you don't want to polish off the top .3mils of the clear since the highest concetration of UV inhibitors are located there, and coats of wax are so thin you really can't put that much UV protection into it. Some chemists I've talked to said it is actually pointless to put UV protection into a wax. It is almost like the people looking for tire dressing with the highest UV protection even though their tires are loaded with a UV inhibitor.

Zaino is more durable that P21S. P21S will last a month though if you use a good car wash. P21S is really easy to apply though. I can vacuum a vehicle out, dress vinyl, clean windows, clean wheels/tires/wheel wells, hand wash vehicle, dry, and wax with P21S in about an hour and 15mins (That's on an Explorer too, not a small vehicle). I've never timed how long I can do just a wax but I estimate it is probably 15 to 20 minutes. Doesn't really take that much time because you take P21S off while it is wet. Apply it to a panel and remove right away and off to the next panel you go. If I use some of my other wax products I can wax stuff like an Expedition by hand in 10 mins (application and removal). I think someone can give 10 mins a month to apply a coat of wax.

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i.e. it can easily be eaten through by acids, hard water, etc...

And Zaino can be eaten through too, unless Zaino is stronger than paint... I've seen bird poop etch paint in one day. I'll give zaino the plus though as it will stand up better to this than P21S.

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I use S100 sometimes on relatives' cars that I detail, because it's an instant shine without much effort. And, these relatives wouldn't know the difference anyhow between one product and the next.

One of the good things about relatives. You don't have to use your favorite wax on their car and they'll never know!

Lemon Pledge is used by a lot of people in car shows. They'll run it over their vehicle before it is judged. It'll remove dust, finger prints, etc. and it also acts as a filling glaze to fill in any imperfections and give another layer of oil on the paint for the added wet look. It does work well for hiding stuff. I've seen a vehicle look perfect after having pledge applied a few times but after it has been washed off the vehicle is covered in swirls.


The toughest product. So I guess you ran Zaino through a Xenon Arc Weathering machine, did an Acid Resistant test, Salt Fog, Soap and Water Spotting, Crock Mar Resistance test, etc. while using a QFM, Gloss Meter, and Color meter to measure the protection your wax provides and how long it takes to break down? As well as tried it on different paint systems because paints from different manufacturers react differently to waxes because they are porus... of course you probably knew that.

3m IHG is a Glaze; Not a wax. It does not contain any wax! It was not designed for protection. It contains mild abrasives for removing swirls and then oils to fill and provide wet look. Learn what a Glaze is; Learn what a wax is!

Two good points this makes me want to bring up. Beading is not a result of Carnauba. It is a results of the other waxes in carnauba and other additives. Things such as Beeswax and Montan bead water and are mixed in with Carnauba for that resons. Just because it doesn't bead doesn't me the carnauba isn't there. Same with Sealants. Just because it doesn't bead does mean the sealant isn't there.

Also about thicknes. It can't be measured. People have layered many coats of wax on and a paint thickness meter will still not pick it up! The labs use a laser system to measure if the wax is still on the paint.

He is talking about when Zaino is under attack like from bird poop, etc. It will last a few hours longer than a carnauba under attack.

 

Thank you, I already knew S100 and P21S were the same. However, the new formula S100 looks to be different from P21S.

No, I don't think it's pointless to add more UV to a finish. The clear is designed for more gloss and shine primarily, while sealing in the painted layers. That alone will not protect the paint from UV damage or other environmental damage if left unprotected. Anything you can use to retard the harsh UV rays only helps that much more. The same goes for tires and dash materials. Anything you can use on them with a UV inhibitor will help prolong their life.

You're right you can wax every month with P21S, but your protection is only as strong as the product you use.

I've never seen bird poo etch through Zaino and marr the finish. I've had to leave big spots of poo on my car all day in the baking sun, but when it's removed a long time afterwards, there is no paint damage. I can't say the same happend when using waxes...

No, I don't have to run Zaino through a dozen testing machines to determine how strong it is. Real world experience is proof positive for me. I simply have not found a product that offers its level of protection. I know when my finish is being protected and when it isn't, and I know that I've never seen Zaino broken down on MY finishes. I don't need any machine to prove this for me.

FYI, I ALREADY know what a glaze and wax are. I used them for years thanks! And I already know full well what IHG is and what it contains, my point was that you can "wax" with a product with no protection, i.e. a glaze, every minute and still not have any protection. I know IHG isn't a wax, and it doesn't contain any. I was using the principal of the term "wax" as in waxing the car. I could have used any less durable wax in the example as well, but the waxing every hour comment wouldn't apply. For example, you could wax every day with Zymol, but you'll still basically have little protection because it's a weak product. Having used plenty of waxes and glazes over the years, I don't think I need any explanation of what they are, thanks!

So, if your product doesn't bead, how do you know if your car has anything on it or not? Let me guess, you used your million dollar testing equipment. Beading is a sign of good paint protection. New paint will initially bead but for only a short time. I have my own thoughts about sheeting, but I'm not bringing it up here....

You can't layer a wax anyway. Carnauba will not build upon itself and neither will the oils... I thought you knew what a wax was?!

Again, I've seen Zaino last through the effects of poo and other attacks, and it was for more than a few hours. I don't agree with there being a small difference in protection from a polymer versus a wax, even under assault.

 

Bird crap can eat through any type of polish/wax, and of course even clear coat, it just depends on what the birds were eating (i.e. berries and so on) the same is true for acid rain. Most of the synthetic products of today will protect better than carnauba products.

 

Quote by MikeLS:
"I've never seen bird poo etch through Zaino and marr the finish. I've had to leave big spots of poo on my car all day in the baking sun, but when it's removed a long time afterwards, there is no paint damage. I can't say the same happend when using waxes..."
Almost makes Zaino sound like the crap on infomercials which it isn't.
These are the type of statements that people take offense to and could lead to false expectations. I would hate to see someone have their finished ruined because they thought Zaino was really bird crap / acid rain indefinitely resistant I am sure Sal has never stated that Zaino is bird crap proof. Hcvone has a grip of the "real" situation. Maybe that is why he is a distributor?

 

That's right. "I" have never seen Zaino eaten through by poo or whatever on MY cars to the point where it may have damaged the paint, so I have every right to say so. I didn't ever say it couldn't ever happen. Of course it could. But, it has never happened to ME. I love how you all twist around everything I say to make it sound like whatever you want. I've got a grip on the real situation too. I know how Zaino has performed for ME. Whether it does for you is up to you in your situation. Did I ever ever say it was "indefinitely resistant." Of course not! Just like I never said half the crap you and your "friends" accuse me of elsewhere. But, that's OK, I'm just a crazy, narrowminded, fanatic that has only ever used Zaino....so what the hell do I know.

I've even seen Sal state that bird poo will end up hurting the Zaino. I know full well that it "can," but it's a crime to say that's it's never happend to me, right?

 

I just added that because I realized I was using P21S through my whole post and realized this is an S100 thread.

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No, I don't think it's pointless to add more UV to a finish. The clear is designed for more gloss and shine primarily, while sealing in the painted layers. That alone will not protect the paint from UV damage or other environmental damage if left unprotected. Anything you can use to retard the harsh UV rays only helps that much more. The same goes for tires and dash materials. Anything you can use on them with a UV inhibitor will help prolong their life.

I'm not saying it is pointless but the fact that the coats of wax are so thin not a lot of UV protection will make it into the final cured finish. Maybe those 50 coats of Zaino some of you apply might provide some UV protection...

Most people don't keep there tires long enough to see any real damage from UV unless you never drive your vehicle and just park it in the sun all day. How often do you change your tires? I know most performance tires don't last long. Maybe every 2 years? Since this is a Camaro board I'm assuming most of you run soft rubber. Tires are loaded with UV inhibitors anyways. Carbon Black, a competative absorber, is mixed in with the rubber for this purpose. I guess if you have a boat or RV that sits in the sun all the time, then the added UV protection would help but for the everyday driver or garaged vehicle, pick the dressing you like the look of best. But then the vehicle that doesn't get driven you run into the problem of Ozone...

I've seen many dashes that are 7 and 8 years old, never had a dressing applied and are not cracking. Guess they needed the UV protection to keep from drying out though.

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I've never seen bird poo etch through Zaino and marr the finish. I've had to leave big spots of poo on my car all day in the baking sun, but when it's removed a long time afterwards, there is no paint damage. I can't say the same happend when using waxes...

Yhea but how do you know how acidic the bird poop you left on your vehicle was? Depends on what the bird eats. I could get some bird poop and leave it on carnauba for days and it probably won't eat it away if the poop wasn't that acidic.

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No, I don't have to run Zaino through a dozen testing machines to determine how strong it is. Real world experience is proof positive for me. I simply have not found a product that offers its level of protection. I know when my finish is being protected and when it isn't, and I know that I've never seen Zaino broken down on MY finishes. I don't need any machine to prove this for me.

Then you have no scientific proof that Zaino is the best. You can't compare your climate to other areas or the paint on your vehicle to other vehicle's paints. If you subjected different products to the same conditions, then you may have a more valid point.

I guess you also tested out every synthetic on the market under the same conditions and proved they all don't last as well as zaino. So how did your tests on Liquid Glass, Blackfire, Platinum, Valugard's Paint Sealant, Carbrite's Super Seal, Pro's Profection, Detailplus' Diamond Plus, Hi-Temp's Terminator Paint Sealant, Klasse Sealant Glaze, Autoglym's Extra Gloss Protection, and Meguiar's #20 turn out? Some of these products the manufacturers offer with warranties (Valugard, Pro) because they work so well.

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FYI, I ALREADY know what a glaze and wax are. I used them for years thanks! And I already know full well what IHG is and what it contains, my point was that you can "wax" with a product with no protection, i.e. a glaze, every minute and still not have any protection. I know IHG isn't a wax, and it doesn't contain any. I was using the principal of the term "wax" as in waxing the car. I could have used any less durable wax in the example as well, but the waxing every hour comment wouldn't apply. For example, you could wax every day with Zymol, but you'll still basically have little protection because it's a weak product. Having used plenty of waxes and glazes over the years, I don't think I need any explanation of what they are, thanks!

Ok, let me get this get straight... You wanted to prove you can "wax" with a product every minute that offers no protection and still not get any protection from it? Really? Even if I take a product that offers absolutely no protection and wax with it every minute I still won't get any protection? Glad you took the time to point that out to everyone!

Man, and I thought using that compound on my car every minute was helping me build up some awesome protection...

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So, if your product doesn't bead, how do you know if your car has anything on it or not? Let me guess, you used your million dollar testing equipment. Beading is a sign of good paint protection. New paint will initially bead but for only a short time. I have my own thoughts about sheeting, but I'm not bringing it up here....

You can't but some products don't bead long but are still there. Klasse SG is a prime example. It doesn't bead water for long but it is still there. You can tell if you strip a spot off in a middle of a panel. You'll be able to see the difference. You can also wash with some products that put oils on the paint that will make it bead like nuts. I guess the beading after you wash with one of these products means you have great wax protection...

What do you believe about sheeting water? I don't really think they should say a product sheets water but lacks beading after awhile. That is all it really is.

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You can't layer a wax anyway. Carnauba will not build upon itself and neither will the oils... I thought you knew what a wax was?!

Can't layer carnaba? Then why do most Concours winners do it? And How do you explain wax build up on paint? Guess that isn't caused by multiple layers of carnauba though... It is probably caused by some other phenomenon brought on by applying many coats of a carnauba.

When you apply a carnauba wax the solvents evaporate off leaving behind a layer of carnauba + the other additives (Montan, Beeswax, oils, etc.). You can let it cure for four hours to help the wax layer set and then you can apply another coat. Carnauba can be layered! In the past detail shops ran cold water over the curing coat of wax to help it set faster so they could layer on another coat of wax.

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Again, I've seen Zaino last through the effects of poo and other attacks, and it was for more than a few hours. I don't agree with there being a small difference in protection from a polymer versus a wax, even under assault.

I agree there is a difference in protection but I have been using carnaubas and synthetics for awhile and see no huge difference that everyone should use synthetics. I'm just trying to let everyone no there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a synthetic. I read a Salt Fog test and there were carnauba's beating out synthetics... But, since synthetics are sooo strong...

And some of these people with garage queen cars will never see acid rain or bird poop. Those people can use glazes and carnauba waxes to get awesome wet, deep shines that a synthetic lacks.

 

You bring up some interesting and valid points. Not all of it I agree with, but that's fine. You prefer your products, I prefer mine, no biggie. That nice list of products you posted....actually yes, I've used a few from that list that have interested me in the past. Most of the others I have no interest in....as they're cleaner based or silicone based. The closest product I've found to Zaino, in terms of durability only, would be Klasse SG. I compare all products here in my own conditions, and I think that's fair enough to decide what works best for me.

I think you're still missing my point about "waxing" every minute versus protection. You could "wax" forever with a glaze, carnaubas, or sealants, but your finish is only as protected as the strength of the product you use. You're right, obviously there's isn't any inherent protection from a glaze or a true polish. I chose this (glaze) as an example first simply because it's the least durable product meant for shine. You know, many car manufacturers recommend you "wax" the car with a glaze for the first few months. Would I ever do so? Nope. So, as I meant, you could "wax" that new car with 10 bottles of IHG or New Car Glaze and never have a dime's worth of protection. If I used a carnauba as my base coat, my finish would only be as protected as the quality of the film of wax on the finish. Some offer virtually no protection, some are actually pretty tough. My point was that your protection depends on the strength of the wax or polymer. So, whether you "wax" every day, every month, or every year with whatever product, you've only got a barrier as strong as the product itself. I don't technically "need" a product that lasts 6-10 months, because I wax often too. But, I prefer the hard protection from a more durable product. Not to mention, I kinda like the shine too.

Like I said, some of your points I can see. Some of the others I may or may not completely buy into come from a fundamental difference in the beliefs about car care.

 

And do you know why manufacturers recommend using a glaze for the first few months?

Glazes were originally designed for body shops. They contain mild abrasivse and work like a polish for removing swirls. Body shops would using them after compounding to remove swirls. They also have to use a glaze because they don't contain silicone, which will seal the paint and prevent it from fully curing.

Older paint systems use to take awhile to fully cure so for the first month or two you should only use a glaze on it. Using anything else would prevent the gases in the paint from being able to off-gass and thus stopping the curing process. New factory paint it really isn't a problem though since the panels are baked at the factory and fully cured in 48 hours. Aftermarket paint that is not baked needs to be allowed to cure awhile. Some argue the newer aftermarket paint systems fully cure in two weeks without baking.

 

There is no product on the market today that can claim their product is acid rain proof, and or bird crap proof, if the acid can eat into the clear coat, no polish/wax will stop that from happing