Changing Paint Technology, requires more care
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Changing Paint Technology, requires more care
For anyone that cares, I thought this was interesting reading about current (and probably future) paint technology. Taken from a detailer's site I trust....
Basically, modern paints are requiring more care now than they ever have in the past, which makes the need for nonabrasive products even greater. It's all a tradeoff really....you get more environmentally friendly paint, but less tough, durable, and glossy. So, who do you want to decide what's best for the gloss, durability, and care of paint....environmentalists, or auto/ paint manufacturers? I prefer hard and durable paint, but, oh well.....it just means more work in properly caring for your finish...
Water-Borne Paint Finishes
In the past twenty years, environmental and occupational safety concerns have put great pressure on the oil-based coatings industry. Many industries have seen the migration of coatings toward water-based formulations. These changes moved approximately 20% world's automotive industry to water borne coating by 1999. Since this change, there has been a lot of talk about the durability of these automotive paints.
For Auto Manufactures such as Daimler/Chrysler Corporation, General Motors and BMW, the advantages for moving to water borne finishes are aimed at reducing VOC emissions during application, waterborne coatings also reduce risk of fire, are easier to clean up (creating less hazardous residues) and result in reduced worker exposure to organic vapors.
However, water borne paints have some drawbacks:
First: Water borne paints are softer than acrylic oil based paints. The quick forced dry process using higher curing temperatures causes the paint to dry fast, but not as hard. As a result, these paints scratch more easily.
Second: Water borne paints also have difficulties with increased orange peal and production line runs and sags. The increased orange peal causes a reduction in overall smoothness and gloss.
Third: Water borne paints are also more porous than conventional acrylic finishes. This accelerates a process known as drift. Drift is the process of waxes and sealants soaking into the pores of the finish. Because the finish of a painted surface looks similar to the surface of the moon, peaks and valleys etc., as sealants heat and cool, they soak into the finish. Drift occurs in every known finish, however the water borne paint allows this process to occur much more rapidly, in some cases, even as short as a two week period of time. As drift occurs, the paint is left susceptible to the outdoor elements. This leads the paint to loose gloss and be susceptible to water spots, acid rain, industrial fallout and many other forms of foreign particles.
Maintaining A Water Borne Finish:
Maintaining water borne finishes isn't dramatically different than caring for a conventional acrylic finish, however there are a few things to keep in mind.
First: Because water borne finishes are softer than conventional finishes, it isn't recommended to use either automated car washes or sponges if hand washing. Doing so will diminish gloss and create surface scratches. It is however recommended to use a soft acrylic wash mitt to reduce the chance of scratching.
Second: When either hand or machine polishing the finish, use a polish that contains a diminishing abrasive, Such as Meguiar's Body Shop Professional (BSP) line. Meguiar's developed this line of products under the direction of PPG and GM. It provides the ability to remove stubborn defects without scratching the delicate finish.
Third: Because water borne paints are more porous, it is more important than ever to keep the finish sealed from environmental pollution and to maintain gloss and protection. A more regular routine of sealing the finish is required to achieve proper protection and achievement of gloss. As the finish stops beading, apply more protection to the surface. The time will vary along with outdoor exposure and temperature. It is also a good idea to remove all polishes and waxes with a microfiber cloth to reduce the amount of friction on the finish.
Water borne finishes are becoming more and more popular among industry leaders. These finishes will improve with time, however until they perfect this process, it will just take a bit more care to maintain these delicate finishes.
In the past twenty years, environmental and occupational safety concerns have put great pressure on the oil-based coatings industry. Many industries have seen the migration of coatings toward water-based formulations. These changes moved approximately 20% world's automotive industry to water borne coating by 1999. Since this change, there has been a lot of talk about the durability of these automotive paints.
For Auto Manufactures such as Daimler/Chrysler Corporation, General Motors and BMW, the advantages for moving to water borne finishes are aimed at reducing VOC emissions during application, waterborne coatings also reduce risk of fire, are easier to clean up (creating less hazardous residues) and result in reduced worker exposure to organic vapors.
However, water borne paints have some drawbacks:
First: Water borne paints are softer than acrylic oil based paints. The quick forced dry process using higher curing temperatures causes the paint to dry fast, but not as hard. As a result, these paints scratch more easily.
Second: Water borne paints also have difficulties with increased orange peal and production line runs and sags. The increased orange peal causes a reduction in overall smoothness and gloss.
Third: Water borne paints are also more porous than conventional acrylic finishes. This accelerates a process known as drift. Drift is the process of waxes and sealants soaking into the pores of the finish. Because the finish of a painted surface looks similar to the surface of the moon, peaks and valleys etc., as sealants heat and cool, they soak into the finish. Drift occurs in every known finish, however the water borne paint allows this process to occur much more rapidly, in some cases, even as short as a two week period of time. As drift occurs, the paint is left susceptible to the outdoor elements. This leads the paint to loose gloss and be susceptible to water spots, acid rain, industrial fallout and many other forms of foreign particles.
Maintaining A Water Borne Finish:
Maintaining water borne finishes isn't dramatically different than caring for a conventional acrylic finish, however there are a few things to keep in mind.
First: Because water borne finishes are softer than conventional finishes, it isn't recommended to use either automated car washes or sponges if hand washing. Doing so will diminish gloss and create surface scratches. It is however recommended to use a soft acrylic wash mitt to reduce the chance of scratching.
Second: When either hand or machine polishing the finish, use a polish that contains a diminishing abrasive, Such as Meguiar's Body Shop Professional (BSP) line. Meguiar's developed this line of products under the direction of PPG and GM. It provides the ability to remove stubborn defects without scratching the delicate finish.
Third: Because water borne paints are more porous, it is more important than ever to keep the finish sealed from environmental pollution and to maintain gloss and protection. A more regular routine of sealing the finish is required to achieve proper protection and achievement of gloss. As the finish stops beading, apply more protection to the surface. The time will vary along with outdoor exposure and temperature. It is also a good idea to remove all polishes and waxes with a microfiber cloth to reduce the amount of friction on the finish.
Water borne finishes are becoming more and more popular among industry leaders. These finishes will improve with time, however until they perfect this process, it will just take a bit more care to maintain these delicate finishes.
Last edited by MikeLS; Jan 29, 2003 at 10:28 AM.
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Where did you find this info?
RonK keeps saying there will be new paints that are rock hard and will need more agressive compounds to work on. He's been saying that for like a year though. I'll have to find out if any company plans on using these paints soon.
RonK keeps saying there will be new paints that are rock hard and will need more agressive compounds to work on. He's been saying that for like a year though. I'll have to find out if any company plans on using these paints soon.
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Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Memphis, TN
That shows just about how much you know. You don't have a clue and you never have. You have no clue where I got that, and it's not where you think obviously. I'd appreciate it if you'd just stay the hell out of these threads if you have nothing but your same lame BS to post that noone cares about. It's clear you're a troll and it's pretty childish to hang around even though you've been banned what 2 or 3 times now. Your "very good idea" is very wrong, just like 100% of the rest of your sorry posts. Funny that you raise the BS flag when it's YOU that can't resist posting worthless crap time and again. You never have anything meangingful to add to any conversation other than a flame or completely useless info. It must be pretty boring when all you have to do is sit around and create a soap opera with every post so you get attention that you must so desperately need.
Bigsnake,
This came from Jeremy Goodspeed, a professional detailer in CA. www.goodspeedmotoring.com I would tend to agree with his info about softer, less durable paints though, because many many folks have complained in recent years about the quality of paint from makers like Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM (Corvette), etc....being too soft and chipping/scratching too easily. I've seen no evidence of paints actually being harder and more durable. In fact, I think the reverse is true, unfortuantely. With the restrictions on VOCs and other factors, I think this is forcing the paint makers to come up softer paints. I wish this weren't the case, but it's all up to regulations....
So, troll boy, you ready to put your foot in your mouth where it belongs?
Maybe you'd like to tell Jeremy he's full of **** because only YOU, the all-knowing Zurtle lover, knows anything about paint care? I'm sure he'd just love to hear your thoughts like the rest of us. That's what I thought....... It's OK, keep firing your BS, so it's makes you look like the fool. If you want meaningful conversation with others, you'll need to start getting real and drop the crap.
Bigsnake,
This came from Jeremy Goodspeed, a professional detailer in CA. www.goodspeedmotoring.com I would tend to agree with his info about softer, less durable paints though, because many many folks have complained in recent years about the quality of paint from makers like Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM (Corvette), etc....being too soft and chipping/scratching too easily. I've seen no evidence of paints actually being harder and more durable. In fact, I think the reverse is true, unfortuantely. With the restrictions on VOCs and other factors, I think this is forcing the paint makers to come up softer paints. I wish this weren't the case, but it's all up to regulations....
So, troll boy, you ready to put your foot in your mouth where it belongs?
Maybe you'd like to tell Jeremy he's full of **** because only YOU, the all-knowing Zurtle lover, knows anything about paint care? I'm sure he'd just love to hear your thoughts like the rest of us. That's what I thought....... It's OK, keep firing your BS, so it's makes you look like the fool. If you want meaningful conversation with others, you'll need to start getting real and drop the crap.
Last edited by MikeLS; Jan 31, 2003 at 11:41 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 114
From: Chicago
Originally posted by MikeLS
This came from Jeremy Goodspeed, a professional detailer in CA. www.goodspeedmotoring.com I would tend to agree with his info about softer, less durable paints though, because many many folks have complained in recent years about the quality of paint from makers like Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM (Corvette), etc....being too soft and chipping/scratching too easily. I've seen no evidence of paints actually being harder and more durable. In fact, I think the reverse is true, unfortuantely. With the restrictions on VOCs and other factors, I think this is forcing the paint makers to come up softer paints. I wish this weren't the case, but it's all up to regulations....
So, troll boy, you ready to put your foot in your mouth where it belongs? Maybe you'd like to tell Jeremy he's full of **** because only YOU, the all-knowing Zurtle lover, knows anything about paint care? I'm sure he'd just love to hear your thoughts like the rest of us. That's what I thought....... It's OK, keep firing your BS, so it's makes you look like the fool.
This came from Jeremy Goodspeed, a professional detailer in CA. www.goodspeedmotoring.com I would tend to agree with his info about softer, less durable paints though, because many many folks have complained in recent years about the quality of paint from makers like Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM (Corvette), etc....being too soft and chipping/scratching too easily. I've seen no evidence of paints actually being harder and more durable. In fact, I think the reverse is true, unfortuantely. With the restrictions on VOCs and other factors, I think this is forcing the paint makers to come up softer paints. I wish this weren't the case, but it's all up to regulations....
So, troll boy, you ready to put your foot in your mouth where it belongs?
Maybe you'd like to tell Jeremy he's full of **** because only YOU, the all-knowing Zurtle lover, knows anything about paint care? I'm sure he'd just love to hear your thoughts like the rest of us. That's what I thought....... It's OK, keep firing your BS, so it's makes you look like the fool.
Sorry mike if I insulted your intellegence ill try not to do it again.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 114
From: Chicago
Hey Mike thats a good site. TRUE FACTS about waxes. Espically polymers like Zaino.
So taken from http://www.goodspeedmotoring.com/?page=waxing_sealing on 01/31/03 is the following:
"Polymer sealants/resins
Polymer sealants are very popular for new vehicles or vehicles that may only receive occasional detail treatments. Polymer sealants are like a liquid carnauba wax, except that a polymer sealant is comprised of an open linked molecule. Carnauba wax molecules are closed linked, which means that they only but up together to protect the surface. The open linked polymer molecules form together to create a chain like effect. This chain like effect, allows the polymer sealant to bond better with the paint. Polymer sealants also have greater life expediency than a carnauba wax. A carnauba wax is expected to last approximately 6 to 8 car washes, opposed to about 26 washes with the use of a polymer sealant. Be expected to sacrifice a small amount of paint depth for increased durability."
This states that polymer sealents last longer but are for cars that get occasional detail treatment. Carnauba lasts 6-8 washes (long enough for anyone serious about waxing BTW) and that Carnauba has more paint "depth". Get it mike Carnauba should be the choice of most people on this board.
So taken from http://www.goodspeedmotoring.com/?page=waxing_sealing on 01/31/03 is the following:
"Polymer sealants/resins
Polymer sealants are very popular for new vehicles or vehicles that may only receive occasional detail treatments. Polymer sealants are like a liquid carnauba wax, except that a polymer sealant is comprised of an open linked molecule. Carnauba wax molecules are closed linked, which means that they only but up together to protect the surface. The open linked polymer molecules form together to create a chain like effect. This chain like effect, allows the polymer sealant to bond better with the paint. Polymer sealants also have greater life expediency than a carnauba wax. A carnauba wax is expected to last approximately 6 to 8 car washes, opposed to about 26 washes with the use of a polymer sealant. Be expected to sacrifice a small amount of paint depth for increased durability."
This states that polymer sealents last longer but are for cars that get occasional detail treatment. Carnauba lasts 6-8 washes (long enough for anyone serious about waxing BTW) and that Carnauba has more paint "depth". Get it mike Carnauba should be the choice of most people on this board.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,564
From: Memphis, TN
This has absolutely nothing to do with "my" intelligence. The whole point of this post was to share some interesting info, but as usual, I was attacked yet again without basis of any fact. LoL I love it....now I'm posting illegal info because I didn't post the source, lmfao, even though I said directly it didn't come from me. FWIW, I didn't think the site was important, but the info was. I mean people post info directly from the zaino site or any other company for those to see, but usually full credit isn't given because we're not writing a book here, just sharing info. No biggie unless you're claiming you wrote/authored what was posted. But, obviously, if I posted it, it had to come from Zaino right? There are many sites I find useful, interesting, and helpful, Zaino being one of them, but not the only one. But, hey, I appreciate the full on attack, really.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,564
From: Memphis, TN
Originally posted by Topless01WS6
This states that polymer sealents last longer but are for cars that get occasional detail treatment. Carnauba lasts 6-8 washes (long enough for anyone serious about waxing BTW) and that Carnauba has more paint "depth". Get it mike Carnauba should be the choice of most people on this board.
This states that polymer sealents last longer but are for cars that get occasional detail treatment. Carnauba lasts 6-8 washes (long enough for anyone serious about waxing BTW) and that Carnauba has more paint "depth". Get it mike Carnauba should be the choice of most people on this board.
Yeah, I know it's a good site, in fact it's a great site and I've read over it a few times and generally agree with his methods, facts, and opinions. True carnaubas are good enough for anyone that waxes often, but the fact remains that no carnauba can protect a finish as well as a polymer, regardless of how often you wax. 1 coat of "wax" isn't near as strong as one coat of polymer. If you use polymer often, like many of us here, you get even better shine and protection due to layering. With a wax, you still only get as much protection as if you only had about 1 coat on the car, especially with any cleaner wax. If that's good enough for you, fine.
About the depth thing, having compared Zaino to many good quality carnauba waxes, I find that zaino offers great depth and clarity compared to many of them. Now, some of the better waxes may have the edge, but not by much. If I wanted that kind of shine, I'd add a coat of a nonabrasive wax on top of Zaino, which I have done before. But, again, the thread is off topic now, so this needs to be discussed at another time IMO. I didn't start this thread as a discussion of wax vs polymer.
So, yeah, that's a great site, just like many out there. There's more info than you can handle if you dig for it.
Last edited by MikeLS; Jan 31, 2003 at 12:09 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 38
Originally posted by MikeLS
Bigsnake,
This came from Jeremy Goodspeed, a professional detailer in CA. www.goodspeedmotoring.com I would tend to agree with his info about softer, less durable paints though, because many many folks have complained in recent years about the quality of paint from makers like Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM (Corvette), etc....being too soft and chipping/scratching too easily. I've seen no evidence of paints actually being harder and more durable. In fact, I think the reverse is true, unfortuantely. With the restrictions on VOCs and other factors, I think this is forcing the paint makers to come up softer paints. I wish this weren't the case, but it's all up to regulations....
Bigsnake,
This came from Jeremy Goodspeed, a professional detailer in CA. www.goodspeedmotoring.com I would tend to agree with his info about softer, less durable paints though, because many many folks have complained in recent years about the quality of paint from makers like Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM (Corvette), etc....being too soft and chipping/scratching too easily. I've seen no evidence of paints actually being harder and more durable. In fact, I think the reverse is true, unfortuantely. With the restrictions on VOCs and other factors, I think this is forcing the paint makers to come up softer paints. I wish this weren't the case, but it's all up to regulations....
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15
From: Flower Mound, TX
Interesting post. I can vouch for the statements made regarding the water based paints.
I was up at the Woodward Dream Cruise last summer and had a chance to talk at length with some of the team Mustang guys. One of my friends with me has an '01 Cobra and he remarked that he seemed to have more rock chips than he did with his '96 Cobra. The Ford engineer we were speaking with explained they had gone to a "water-based" paint for that model year and then went on to paraphrase pretty much everything in the quoted article. As he pointed out, the switch was regulatory-driven and the newer paint just isn't as durable.
I was up at the Woodward Dream Cruise last summer and had a chance to talk at length with some of the team Mustang guys. One of my friends with me has an '01 Cobra and he remarked that he seemed to have more rock chips than he did with his '96 Cobra. The Ford engineer we were speaking with explained they had gone to a "water-based" paint for that model year and then went on to paraphrase pretty much everything in the quoted article. As he pointed out, the switch was regulatory-driven and the newer paint just isn't as durable.
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