speedmiser

I'm looking closely into converting over to a direct port system from a single nozzle system.
Well, so far I've had much better results with the NX and distribution (atomization) through the throttle body and intake, so it's my opion that NX does do a better job with atomization that NOS - at least with the nozzles that I've used in the past.

My question is, would it benifit me to use NX nozzles in a direct port system over the NOS nozzles, since I would no longer need to worry about distrubution through the intake and throttle body? Would the better atomization of the NX nozzles benifit me in any way on a DP system? If there's a real benifit to going with NX, I'll go with the NX piranha Nozzles, but for an additional $17.00-$22.00 each over the NOS foggers, I'd like to think it would be a worthwhile choice. I'm not willing to fork over the additional $150 or so, just for brand loyalty.

CustomN2O

Yes, go with the NX nozzles. Even on a direct port setup, atomization is VERY important. No matter what kind of kit you run, if you dont atomize, it wont burn. The NX nozzles are far superior to hte NOS. Stick with what has proven to you to be better

JWINN

Costume N20,

I'm curious about the statement you just made about the NX nozzle is proven and the NOS is not? Proven to do what make a 100hp. and thats it! Make you car run slow even with nitrous! In that case your correct.

Dude, what are you talking about? I run the NOS Direct Port Pro Race Fogger kit with the stainless annular nozzles in a costume setup. No problems what so ever with burn rate or atomization. But then again burn rate is controled by many factors like to name just a few, a little thing called fuel psi and jet pattern. You should take a walk through the next NSCA/NMCA RACE and look at what the fastest cars are running. It sure isn't NX. I have ran both NOS and NX and let me offer up my personal two cents I made more power with less hassle in tunning running NOS annular nozzles or the the soft plumb compared to the NX piranha nozzle, heck I even tried there Vortech nozzles and with the same results. Just to show ya how trash passes throught there quality control I received two of the nozzles and the fuel passages where not even machined all the way through. Just think if I would have installed these without cleaning them and applying psi.MELTDOWN! These two dont even compare to each other in regard to quality. It was a royal pain in the *** trying to find the correct tuneup with there nozzle designs plus not to mention there jet patterns are injuneered to work with 1050 nitrous psi. Good luck with maintaining that unless you get a electric bottle warmer. NOS psi is 950 bottle psi, much easier to maintain.

So next time see the cars going fast and this Manufacture is used by the majority of the fastest NSCA/NMCA cars in the nation and the manufacture is NOS! I'm not the only one out there that have tried NX and after countless hours looking for equal power to the NOS eventually went back to NOS products. I guess if you spend enought time with the NX kit a really good tuner should possibly get it to produce power.

There are more people on this board running NX than I have ever seen and there also more people on this board going slower than most. If your not droping at least a second off your et with your nitrous kit. The kit is garbage and it requires more aggressive tuning out side of the manufactures recommendations.

If you still prefere something other than NOS and a direct port kit is your fancy I would check out Edelbrocks new direct port kit Billy Glidden designed. I have heard all good things about the kit.



CustomeN20,

If you want compare that NX power against some NOS equiped vehicals and the power difference I would be more than happy to provide the proof I have a few other buddies that run NOS products and I know for a fact they two would like some of that action. I see from your web site your a dealer for NX so that makes all the sense in the world why you say what you say. And since your vehicale is a backhalf tube , Big Block car you should take a step back and look at why if in fact your running the times your running. But then again you only mentioned building motors that best running 8's which is good don't get me wrong but your the engine builder you should be kicking everyones *** especially with a big inch motor and now adays running 8's is not that hard to get to in this day and age especially with that big motor. WOW! I'd check that combination! I would figure all that NX power you should be running 7.90's right off the trailer. Follow the link: www.gofastzone.com and you can get a idea of the slow 7 second street cars that are running bad atomizing NOS products. I assume your car obviously is a street car just like ours found on the site?

Speed, good luck to ya and be careful what advice you get it could cost ya alot of cash with ****y results,


Good Luck!
jim

CustomN2O

Hey Jim, before you go blowing off steam on me, maybe you should get your facts straight. First of all, you dont have to go hunt for a tuneup with NX, its correct right from the factory. I have used the Hawk/Shark nozzle for almost 10 years now, and havent had 1 burnt piston. But I guess I have just been lucky.
Next, you say youve been to my website.....Where do you come off saying I have a round tube backhalf car with a big motor? Its a stock suspension, 358 small block, with a stock block. Nothing exotic, or big for that matter. 23 degree non raised runner heads. Car has ran 9 teens breaking the converter in 1st gear. And I never bragged about it. Get your facts straight before you start talking about stuff that doesnt even apply to me. Look at the picture of the plumbed manifold on the nitrous page....Look like a big block manifold to you? I must be looking at the wrong page. But if you would like, I would love to tune toe to toe with my kit against your NOS kit. Did you pay Prock to give you the custom jetting patterns? Or are you using stock? What BSFC are you tuning for? And explain to me why NOS needs a 35 N2O jet to make 250hp, when I make 300hp with a 31 jet all day long. Must be that superior atomization......Oh, and how come the NOS soft plume nozzle was a copy of the ol Vortech? They even got sued over it.....But you are right, NOS is far superior. If thats what you prefer, then use it. You can make anything work if you really put your mind to it, I just prefer to use a nozzle that has very good atomization, and a tuneup that is correct. Shed some light onto the subject for me, cause I have never ever had a problem with the jets. I can tell you that on a direct port, you need to flow each and every fuel jet. NX has a wonderful idea of mixing different kinds of jets. This causes uneven hp from cylinder to cylinder. But if you are tuning for max hp, you should already know that, and know how to correct it. Let me know the specifics of the problems you had with your NX kit. Other then nozzles that werent machined correctly. I cant help that, you would have to talk to NX. But I have seen many NOS kits come incomplete, and with messed up nozzles. Email me if you would like, or we can discuss this right here. Im very interested in hearing more of your knowledge.
And where did you come up with the Big motor, round tube rearhalf deal......Im missing something here......

JWINN

First and for most if you got ten years experience with NX jetting and you say the jett pattern recommended from the factory are dead on, well that leads me to beleive your experience was very little and limmited over the corse of those years. Hearing you say what you just said about jetting, all I can say is WOW! I'm not trying to start anything and yes I do know that with enought tunning any good nitrous tunner can get nitrous to work and for that matter it wouldn't matter who the manufacture is. The jet pattern given are more so on the conservative side for saftey. And my experience with NX jetting if your shooting 50,125hp the factory jetting is 98% dead on. But by know means is it dead on when you try to make big power! Hell, even the techs at NX will recommend stepping the nitrous jet up on there nozzles kits. I had those retards recommend to me to go up as much as 6 sizes up on the nitrous side and stay with the fuel jet and don't worry about stepping up fuel psi. If I would have used the advice those guys recommended I would have been swapping in those 4 extra piston I ordered with the other 8. I went up 2 sizes on the nitrous and the plug was leaner than what I liked after a pass.

If your going to tell me NOS has hard tuneups to find well to each is to own. I personally disagree. Like I said what manufacture do you see being used on the top NSCA/NMCA cars in pro street and super street? Musi runs NOS,Dantoni runs NOS,Mike Yedgarian NOS. Even the top engine builders still prefere to use NOS and they could dealer with any nitrous company,for that matter just about anybody could dealer with NX and what determines really your costs is the bigger your buy in the bigger % you get. Facts are facts if NX proved to me that the power was there I would still be running there kits. But there kits suck! Even you admit the fact of how far off there jets can be from the factory. That problem is also holding true with the nitrous jets they provide in some cases. Honestly, since John Stewart is gone he was what made NX and power but now all I see is alot of products that are pushed to fast on to the market with out enough R&D and who finds the pit falls, the consumer does and at are costs. NX is out to make more so money than make power! When I seen NX offered a nitrous kit for these guys that have huge car stereos and amps and the nitrous kit is being used to cool the speaker magnets, well I guess that's there way of pursuing power. With problem being found in there kits like incorrect sized nitrous jets,machining imperfections with nozzles and plates(such as spray bars improperly distributing nitrous and fuel, once again a manufacture slip up) braided N20 lines full of teflon shavings do I need to go on? Any one of these things could cause a lot of motor damage. Just consider if a guy with little experience buys a NX kit and isn't aware that he should be checking the jetts sent to him and what not for god knows what? His first attempt with nitrous ends up really bad! Let me refresh what I said before NX SUCKS! I will stay with OLD school nitrous products from the origanal nitrous pioneers----NOS!

Ya your correct I did look at the wrong item on your web page. I do see your car and it does not have a big inch motor. I stand corrected. Also Jeff Prock has tuned some of my nitrous motors. Plus I'll go toe to toe against your vast experiance against mine and Procks any day of the week, what I'm saying, I wouldn't even bother Jeff for his advice against what your saying. I do have enought nitrous experience in my past to know what works and when to cut loose. I really don't think from your comments above that you where making accusations about Procks tune up's or his ability as a nitrous tuner where you? Ten years and not one burned piston, WOW! I can't say that I don't know of any good engine builder's or racers that are really making power wiping *** that don't hurt parts from time to time. If your really running nitrous parts get broke and this is a fact! What you spraying you car 100hp? Doesn't sound like you get to aggressive with the nitrous but then again your going to make so much power easy with your NX tuneup/costume kit that when we get the chance to line up I figure I'm really going to get a lesson and Prock should rethink his jet patterns he flowed on my new combination for this year. ANY DAY THIS SUMMER AND I CAN'T WAITE TO THE DAY I GET SCHOOLED BY YOU. Ya right! Bring some cash with ya also because hopefully at one of these races we can do this.

Jim

JWINN

The nitrous/fuel jet patterns I'm using came from Jeff Prock at Applied Nitrous Technology. He flowed the nitrous system for me which included his recommended jet patterns for the power levels I'm running. My jet patterns are different than stock.

As for my age I'm 33.

Nosfedgta

I have to chime in here. I do not have 10 years exp, but have used 3 dif types of kits. TNT, NX, NOS. The most favorable of mine is the NX so far. I have had less problems with jet patterns, tech, and made more power with it. NOS tech sucks period! TNT is ok, NX by far is the best "imo" If you need hel pwith an NX product all you need to do is call John Phillips and he will be more than happy to help at all times. Wether he is at the track or at his house eating dinner. Now for product versus product. TNT--dont know never had one yet. NX-- holds to their warranty. NOS screwed me 2 times on a solenoid. I had to buy 2 in one year with no help or any warranty!!!!!!!. So far I have made the best power with my NX. It also gave me more MPH than other kits. Now I only have an 11sec car" which is considerd slow these days" but I know what has worked best for me and all my freinds. That does include my friend Sean, who has a 9sec streetcar that can be driver anywhere. He drives to the local 1/8 mile and runs 6.20's on only a 200 shot! with a 406cid motor. When he ran NOS he never got close to that....... NOw im not a dealer, nor an engine builder, but I do know what has worked better for me....

KTamez

Okay guys I think some of us need to switch to decaf.

Heres my take on things.

I can't say one is better then the other but in the end you have to compare apples to apples.

Jim, as you well know, a System that Jeff has worked on should by no means be compared to something that just coems straight out of the box. I don't think Scott by any means was trying to bash Jeff, because most of us know he does world class work. (Ask how I know ) You also pointed out that more people use the NX systems on this board. Thats simply due to NOS' poor system they sell for the bulk of the cars that visit this message board (LT1 cars). That dry system has what is IMO a poor fuel delivery method.

Note: (No one construe this as saying Dry is worse then Wet, but rather the method the NOS system uses, restrictor jets and FMUs, are a poor way of metering fuel enrichment).

Product for Product, I won't say one is better then the other. For the average user, its basically to each his own. For that average guy though its nice to be able to actually be able to call someone and get some tech help, which NX is there for. NOS, especially since being purchased by the Holley conglomerate is like pulling teeth just to get soemone to answer the phone. On a larger system, I still don't see a clear advantage. Taking a look at NMCA NPS, with probably the most restrictive Nitrous rules anywhere, you'll see several Nitrous Express cars have held their own admirably. You can't argue with the fastest Nitous cars in the world using NOS, although its a different game for them since nothing out of the box about the systems on a Fulton, Musi, etc engine.

For Myself, It doesn't matter I currently don't have either.

To the post topic, what would I do if I was doing a fogger? The same exact thing Jim did. Call Jeff Prock.

JWINN

Very well put!

I can agree with what your saying.

Jim

CustomN2O

Jim, not trying to get into a pissing match here, but you totally contradict yourself. You said that NOS had their **** together, and it worked, then you said that NX sucks because you had to call them to get a special jet patter. Then you go on to say that you use Jeff Prock, and NONE of your jetting patterns are stock. Makes no sense. I will be honest with you, in that I dont believe everything they are doing down there is correct. I know of some customers that have had issues with their rails. I know how to set them up, and they work great, but if you do like they show you, you can easily have some problems. I also dont agree on their "high" fuel pressure tuneups on their plates, but that is my own personal opinion, and could go on for days expaining it, but I wont. I will however disagree with you on the fact of poor jetting by NX. They have used the same jetting patterns for years, back to the old Magnum and Top Gun days. They work. Different combinations, engine size, cam timing, etc, will play a big part in how a kit works/reacts when using large amounts of N2O, so obviously you should have to play with that. I was helping a person out at the track today that has a 2 stage Prock/NOS nozzle kit. Cant get the thing to go 100ft. After looking at the flow sheets, its pretty funny that Prock uses the same N/F ratio, or very close to it, that NX uses on a stock jet spread. Go figure. Its also funny that he chose to use 2 Soft Plume nozzles on this kit, which if you didnt know, is a copy of the Vortech nozzle, in which NOS got sued over, and lost. I personally have a few customers back East that I have plumbed 2 stages into their manifolds, and they loved em. I generally put 2 spray bars, and a nozzle set in a tunnel ram. My customers have never had a problem. Leave on 300hp spray bars, and then bring about 300-400hp in on the nozzles, along with the previous 300. So when you say I dont know how to tune large kits, once again, you are wrong. I would love to discuss some technical deals with the use of N2O with you if you would like. We currently are working on a hemi R&D motor, with a system no one has ever seen before. Its coming along very well. Do you know how hard a car would run with 2psi of N2O pressure in a manifold? Dont get all angry and butt hurt, just put some of your info down here of how you make your NOS kits run. I dont doubt you, I just disagree with who makes a better ATOMIZING NOZZLE. And NOS was not the pioneer in Nitrous Technology. That goes back to the days of Marvin Miller.......I would also put John Stewart in there as well. He brought Nitrous Technology a long way...

snow2000SS

Where in the hell did this come from? 35 jet only 250hp on a 6cyl or maybe a 4AN line but not on a 8cyl with the right line. 8 35 jets is closer to 350hp. 300hp would be 32's. You should check your facts before posting.

CustomN2O

I know what jets can make what power, my question was why does Prock use a 36 jet for a 250hp tuneup? The kit I saw on the car this weekend that I was trying to help, had the flow sheet from Prock, and those were the jets that were in it. I asked why so much nitrous, and the guy responded with "its only 250hp. The smallest setting I have". After looking at the flow, I was amazed. It just proves the differences in the nozzles. I can and have many times made 400 hp to the rear wheels with a 35 jet. An NX tune. Thats all I was saying. I know why the nozzle needs that much jet, but Im asking the guy who likes NOS better, why he believes it does. And Im not talking **** about Prock, just asking some questions.
And by the way, I make 310hp with 31 N2O jet.

speedmiser

Thanks for the replys guys.

NX has worked well for me in the past, so I think I'll go back with them for the DP nozzles. I'm always working with a budget though, so I'll be plumbing my own kit and using as many of my current parts as possible - sending my intake off for custom plumbing is just not an option. I'm looking to come off the line with a 50-100 shot on a shark nozzle that's currently in the intake box, then swithing over to a 300shot on the dp fogger system in second gear (while switching the 1st stage off). Larger stall and custom ground nitrous cam are going in sometime in the next few months (when I find the time). And while the intake is off, I figure it will be a great time to convert the second stage to independant DP.

Nother couple of questions though. What's everyone's opinion on logs vs blocks? Is there a real distribution difference at the power level I'm looking for? Also, will 2 NOS power shot fuel solenoids support a 300 shot on a dp system? They are good for 150-175 ea in the single nozzle setups, so I assume 2 would work in my dp system at 150hp per bank - of course you know what they say about assuming... I'd definitely go with 2 NOS cheaters on the nitrous side though - I've had hell in the past with those little nitrous power shots locking up with moderate to high line pressure.

Here's my current plan. 8 NX nozzles to 4 ea 5-port NOS distribution blocks. Blocks fed from 1 nitrous and 1 fuel solenoid per bank. Fuel and Nitrous solenoids are respectively y'd to the fuel and nitrous supply lines. (I'm running an independent nitrous fuel system w/ regulator, as well as an independent nitrous bottle and line for each nitrous stage)

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Keep in mind, it doesnt have to look pretty, it just has to be functional.

Thanks

snow2000SS

36 on the nitrous but what on the fuel? What size bottle? How many bottles? 35 jets will flow about 350hp when supplied with enough nitrous. If you know anything about nitrous you know that pressure drop is it biggest problem. If you don't have enough nitrous volume then you can't keep the pressure up. What alot of tuners do is run a bigger nitrous jet then what would normaly be needed to compensate for the pressure drop on the big end. Look at a Fullton 400HP tune up. It's 2 stages both jetted at 36N 32F @ 6psi through a 73 Holley jet. The key to this tune up is that it only runs one 15lb NOS Super High Flow valve. If you put any other bottle in there the tune up would not work. If you used an NX 15lb bottle it would run too rich because the valve would not flow enough. If you used two bottles it would run lean because now you had enough supply to support those jets. So 8 36 jets will flow 350+ hp but only if the supply from the bottle can keep up. So I bet if you went back and looked at that guy with the "250HP" Prock tune up you will probably find that he was running a single 10lb bottle. Also what some people are doing to help fight the pressure drop issue is start out at a lower pressure like 850psi instead of 950psi. Because the lower the pressure you start with the less pressure drop you will get. Now I don't know if Prock is doing this but it may be something he is trying I haven't heard for sure.

Speedmiser as far as fuel logs vs. distribution blocks go there is some problems with the logsor rails as I call them.. When you use rails there is alot of internal volume that needs to be filled. This leads to a certain amount of latency between activeing the kit and fuel and nitrous actually getting to the engine. It allso can create what is sometimes called a "tail". This is when the nitrous continues to enter the engine after the solenoids have been closed. The rails offer ease of install but is not really the best choice for high HP applications.

CustomN2O

Ok, first of all, with a 35 jet, I can give you 400hp, and be safe as hell. Pressure drop is very much a problem. If you really think an NOS high flow valve outflows the NX valve, then do some research. But anyways...2 bottles will not change a tuneup. It will keep the tuneup closer. I always run 2 15lb bottles. There are ways to keep the kit from going fat on the big end, but in a stock kit form, there is absolutely no way around that. The amount of nitrous you have at tap, should not make a difference on what jets you put in. The #1 deal with tuning nitrous is Pressure Consistancy. If you could keep the bottle at 950psi the whole pass, every pass, you would have it easy. The kit that I was talking about, uses 2 15lb bottles as well. Again, this wasnt talking about any deals with Prock, just that I found it interesting that he used a 36 jet for a 250hp shot.

Now for the rail deal. you claim there is alot of "interanl volume" in the rail. Do you know what size the rail is? Guess not. Its a 3/16 hole through the center. Now look at it this way. If you have distribution block, you have 8 3/16 lines running to each nozzle. On the rail, you have 1, and a short 3/16 line to each nozzle. Actually less volume in the rail. I do agree though that you dont want to run the rail exactly as they give it to you. I like to cut it with about a half inch past the end nozzles, and bring the fuel in from the center. Have done it that way for years, and have been very pleased with it. With no failures.