Valve float is fun...
07-13-2003, 02:13 AM
#16
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Location: Warren / Mi
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What is the specs on the cam? I am running the LPE 219/525, SuperRam, 52mm TB and LPE heads and I shift at 6000 RPM. Anything above that and I go slower. The engine is still pulling but the shift point drop it back into the stronger part of the powerband. Sound like you are shifting to late anyway I look at it. I have the stock lifters in my engine no valve float but I have the double springs on the ported and polished heads. I would try shifting at 5800 RPMs and by the time the trans shifts you will be at 6000 RPM anyway and it should drop back to the sweet part of the power band. Give it a try and let use know how you make out.
07-13-2003, 01:45 PM
#17
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Chris, the Stealth Ram starts making power at 4500 RPM. Not at all what you are accustomed to with the Super Ram. If I shift at 5500 or even 5800 rpm I've been in the powerband for a thousand RPM. There are guys that are running the stock longblock L98 to 6200-6400 with the HSR and running low 13's. I'm pretty highly modded and should be in the 12's but my motor simply is holding me back because somthing is wrong somewhere. Possibly because they are single springs.... Timberwolf and I were racing at Martin and the minute my valves started floating was the minute he blew past me.
BadRockZ, I'll attempt this a little later today possibly. Springs are Comp Cams 982-KIT.
Click this link and look for the 982 kit on the left most chart.
http://compcams.com/catalog/306_307.html
BadRockZ, I'll attempt this a little later today possibly. Springs are Comp Cams 982-KIT.
Click this link and look for the 982 kit on the left most chart.
http://compcams.com/catalog/306_307.html
07-13-2003, 02:11 PM
#18
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Originally posted by RedIrocZ-28
[B]Timberwolf and I were racing at Martin and the minute my valves started floating was the minute he blew past me.[B]
[B]Timberwolf and I were racing at Martin and the minute my valves started floating was the minute he blew past me.[B]
You say I blew past you? That would indicate you were ahead of me at some point
I never saw you except in the mirror after the launch 
07-13-2003, 04:07 PM
#19
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Which cam are you running? Do you have 1.94 or 2.02 valves? If they're aftermarket, what brand? You really shouldn't be running into trouble as soon as you are with those springs. Unless it's a combination of prior floating - that's weakened them considerably,,,,, from the lifters pumping up. Let us know how the 1/8 turn works for you.
07-14-2003, 11:32 PM
#21
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also consider this, even if the springs are "rated" to work with that cam, one or several of the springs may be weak which would result in valve float. at the very least, you should take them off and have them tested for the open/closed press. so you know what your starting with and need to increase.
07-15-2003, 11:13 AM
#22
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Guys, when it all comes down to it, the springs are simply just too weak for my application. They are only 20# seat more than stockers. My stock valvetrain would start to rattle around at about 5500 audibly, these ones give me a few hundred more rpm before they audibly clatter..... I should have asked a few more quetions about whether or not this valvetrain would support 6200-6500 rpm. Its my fault really. The machine shop had mentioned getting the seats machined, but I asked if there were springs that were stiffer that would fit. So, really its my fault. I guess that I'm just gonna have to save for those AFR's and put them on one of these days. 
Or.... get out the grinders and port these heads ALL to hell and get the seats machined.
Or.... get out the grinders and port these heads ALL to hell and get the seats machined.
07-15-2003, 04:52 PM
#24
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I believe I am too close... I'll check on that though.
Max recommended lift is .525" I am at .495"/.502" soooo........ If I read the tables correctly, I can't shim them anymore.
Unless, the installed height is 1.750" right now @ 100# seat. If that were moved to 1.700" installed height @ 118# seat. Coil bind is 1.135".... my cam is only .500"... So that means I am only at 1.200" at max lift... leaving me .965" before bind... Not quite enough I guess... shoot.
Max recommended lift is .525" I am at .495"/.502" soooo........ If I read the tables correctly, I can't shim them anymore.
Unless, the installed height is 1.750" right now @ 100# seat. If that were moved to 1.700" installed height @ 118# seat. Coil bind is 1.135".... my cam is only .500"... So that means I am only at 1.200" at max lift... leaving me .965" before bind... Not quite enough I guess... shoot.
Last edited by RedIrocZ-28; 07-15-2003 at 04:59 PM.
07-17-2003, 01:02 AM
#25
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Installed Height" - Coil bind" - .080" (clearance) = max daily driving cam lift
You can get by with .060" clearance if you don't drive the car long distance, or put a lot of miles on the car. I've run as little as .040" with higher quality springs without problems on a "weekend" car.
In your case you're at 1.75" - 1.135" - .080" = .535" maximum lift. You could shim it .030" to an installed height of 1.72" and be within daily driver tolerances. That would give you 11 additional pounds at seat (362# per inch x .030").
The thing that concerns me is you say you heard the valve train clattering. Most of the time when you get into a valve bounce situation the engine "flutters" (not quite sputtering - if that makes sence) and the power drops off. Unless the springs are totally fried, clattering usually points to slack in the valve train,, like there is a problem with the lifters or possibly the rocker arms and / or their alignment.
If you back of the rocker arm adjustment and it gets worse, then you probably have a lifter problem - more room for the lifter to "collapse". If you back off the adjustment and it gets better, then chances are the springs are shot - less room for the lifter to "pump up" from the valve bounce. If there is no change, you're back to square one. However, I wouldn't pull the heads off until I backed off the rocker arm adjustment first. You might want to take a couple rocker arms all the way off to look for anything funny on the rocker, stud, and valve tips and for slack in the rollers.
You can get by with .060" clearance if you don't drive the car long distance, or put a lot of miles on the car. I've run as little as .040" with higher quality springs without problems on a "weekend" car.
In your case you're at 1.75" - 1.135" - .080" = .535" maximum lift. You could shim it .030" to an installed height of 1.72" and be within daily driver tolerances. That would give you 11 additional pounds at seat (362# per inch x .030").
The thing that concerns me is you say you heard the valve train clattering. Most of the time when you get into a valve bounce situation the engine "flutters" (not quite sputtering - if that makes sence) and the power drops off. Unless the springs are totally fried, clattering usually points to slack in the valve train,, like there is a problem with the lifters or possibly the rocker arms and / or their alignment.
If you back of the rocker arm adjustment and it gets worse, then you probably have a lifter problem - more room for the lifter to "collapse". If you back off the adjustment and it gets better, then chances are the springs are shot - less room for the lifter to "pump up" from the valve bounce. If there is no change, you're back to square one. However, I wouldn't pull the heads off until I backed off the rocker arm adjustment first. You might want to take a couple rocker arms all the way off to look for anything funny on the rocker, stud, and valve tips and for slack in the rollers.
Last edited by BadRocZ; 07-17-2003 at 01:05 AM.
07-17-2003, 12:07 PM
#27
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Sorry Brad, I'm about 15 hours drive time away! I'd sure drop by and help you out if I lived close by. I know I sound like a broken record, but if you'll back off the adjustment and tell me what happens, it could isolate, narrow down, or rule out a number of things that could be wrong. It very well could be something wrong with the springs you have,,, but I've run more cam, with less spring, and more rpm without problems.
Get the car up to operating temp. Pull one valve cover and adjust one side as close to zero as you can get. Then go a 1/4 turn on all. Crank the car and back off the adjustment until it clacks, then turn it until it stops clacking for each one. You'll want to be quick about it and wear eye protection and a long sleeve shirt, because oil is going to get on you, the car, and the floor, but it's the best way for someone that doesn't do this type stuff very often. Cut the car off and turn each one 1/8 turn. Clean up the car as best you can,,, put your valve cover on,,, let the engine get to operating temp and repeat with the other side.
Kevin
Get the car up to operating temp. Pull one valve cover and adjust one side as close to zero as you can get. Then go a 1/4 turn on all. Crank the car and back off the adjustment until it clacks, then turn it until it stops clacking for each one. You'll want to be quick about it and wear eye protection and a long sleeve shirt, because oil is going to get on you, the car, and the floor, but it's the best way for someone that doesn't do this type stuff very often. Cut the car off and turn each one 1/8 turn. Clean up the car as best you can,,, put your valve cover on,,, let the engine get to operating temp and repeat with the other side.
Kevin
07-17-2003, 02:34 PM
#28
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Bad Roc, Isn't there a way to do this without having the car running without the valve covers off? I really don't think thatmy neighbors are gonna appreciate my car idling for any extended period of time. Its loud.... for some reason. Its getting louder...
What if I just adjust the valves with the car off. See the other thing is that I havenever adjusted the valves by myself. I have always had someone who I know knows what they are doing do it for me.
Could I just do it the normal way and go a 1/4 turn?
What if I just adjust the valves with the car off. See the other thing is that I havenever adjusted the valves by myself. I have always had someone who I know knows what they are doing do it for me.
Could I just do it the normal way and go a 1/4 turn?
07-19-2003, 02:23 AM
#29
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Sure, but I've found it's best for the guys that are not use to adjusting the rocker arms to do it the way I recommended. You would be suprised at how many folks that think they know how to adjust the rocker arms don't.
Where did you guys set the rocker arms? If you all went a 1/2 turn,, and want to chance it,,,, just back a 1/4 off each and see what you get. If you went anymore than a 1/2,,, man are you in for a treat.
Where did you guys set the rocker arms? If you all went a 1/2 turn,, and want to chance it,,,, just back a 1/4 off each and see what you get. If you went anymore than a 1/2,,, man are you in for a treat.
07-19-2003, 02:54 PM
#30
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Originally posted by BadRocZ
Sure, but I've found it's best for the guys that are not use to adjusting the rocker arms to do it the way I recommended. You would be suprised at how many folks that think they know how to adjust the rocker arms don't.
Where did you guys set the rocker arms? If you all went a 1/2 turn,, and want to chance it,,,, just back a 1/4 off each and see what you get. If you went anymore than a 1/2,,, man are you in for a treat.
Sure, but I've found it's best for the guys that are not use to adjusting the rocker arms to do it the way I recommended. You would be suprised at how many folks that think they know how to adjust the rocker arms don't.
Where did you guys set the rocker arms? If you all went a 1/2 turn,, and want to chance it,,,, just back a 1/4 off each and see what you get. If you went anymore than a 1/2,,, man are you in for a treat.
(I paid a guy to do this for me) Full story upon request.