Here is what Summit has in their catalog:
195cc intake ports, 75cc exhaust ports, 62cc combustion chambers, reatain use of stock sensors and fittings and come either bare or fully assembled. Assembled has stainless steel 2.02" intake/1.60" exhaust valves, valve springs, reatainers, locks, guideplates and 3/8" studs. $1,359.95 for the assembled but I would probably get the bare castings which are $895.95 since I already have springs, rockers, etc. Now what are you opinions on these heads? Any good, worth the price??

 

Just had Lloyd Elliot port a set for me and if I were to do it again, I'd buy the bare heads. Being of the first to do anything has its rewards and pitfalls. Learned a few lessons on the way but wasted a good bit of money however.

The springs are OK if you’re going to run a cam under .580 lift and not planing on going super high in rpm. Ended up throwing the springs and retainers away as I’m running more lift and my setup is for a 6800-7000 rpm shift point.

I paid extra for the 2.05 valves and the valve job they do is marginal. Ended up having to have the valve jobs redone also so that was a waste of money.

Lots of meat in the heads and the intake volume ended up @ 217 cc’s which is good if you’re running more cubes or planning on higher rpm’s. To get the compression right, the heads had to be milled down to 56cc and if your running 7/16th rockers you'll need them converted from their 3/8th studs.

Out of the box, the intake flows pretty good. I believe it was 258 @ .600 but the exhaust is weak. Bret Bauer checked out the coolant passages and believes them to be superior to AFR which frankly living in Dallas was my main reason for picking the Trick Flows. My last set of AFR’s ran hotter than my prior GTP LT4 heads.

While on the topic of AFR…… Every, and I mean every head porter I’ve talked to said the Trick Flows and Canfields are the aftermarket heads of choice over AFR. Evidently AFR has really dropped down in quality in the last couple of years and these guys just don’t like them anymore.

If you’re going to buy an aftermarket casting Trick Flow is a very good choice, however don’t forget about LT4’s. I just saw some flow sheets of LT4’s with 2.05 intake valves that did flow over 300 cfm. The LT4’s flow better on exhaust also.

To be candid, unless your willing to spend the big bucks (which I’m doing) to get the Trick Flows up to higher performance levels, your better off just having a set of LT1 heads ported. Heck of a lot cheaper and probably not even 20 hp difference when it’s all said and done.

We will see how the car dyno’s as flow numbers are not the whole story as a number of things regarding the Trick Flow heads are favorable. I do have to admit...... those 300 cfm LT4’s sure did look good.

 

Here's a previous thread:
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...3&page=4&pp=15
Trick Flow posted on that thread.


290-300 cfm on a conservative bench is doable on TFs with the right guy on the back end of the grinder. It's been done.

I haven't seen many (any?) true 300 cfm LT castings checked on the same benches, but that doesn't say it can't be done.

 

I was planning to put in a small cam 224/230 .503/.510 with comp cams promag rockers, lifters, pushrods, springs etc. I was planning to do a home prot and polish job, basically gasket matching and such and I think I would need a valve job (not sure what I would need as far as that goes) and someone suggested extrude honing the heads and intake too and they mentioned that with paying a machine shop all this money I might look into a det of aftermarket heads and the trick flow's caught my eye because of the price. I may look into LT4's too. And then there is the issue of maybe my cam will be too small.

 

I hear ya!

The flow sheets I saw last week (from a reputable source...NOT ARE!!) were the first I've personally seen of LTx casting actually flowing over 300 cfm.

Kind of caught me a bit off guard being I had just invested somewhere around $2,500 in the Trick Flows and they're still being worked on.

 

also with my plans, could I just bolt them up and be good or should i do some minor porting first. Like I said I'm not getting a big cam and there won't be a supercharger or anything, at least not for a while.

 

I'd for sure then give Lloyd Elliot a call. He can match a cam and redo your existing heads for less and you will make more power.

The Trick Flows caught my eye also because of price, but now that I've been through it..... it was a false economy.

 

These weren't the numbers were they?

2.00" Int /1.56" Exh

Lift: int / exh
.100 70.5 61.4
.200 140.4 124.6
.300 206.6 180.0
.400 258.1 214.2
.500 291.7 231.1
.550 294.9 236.6
.600 298.8 247.5
.650 301.4 258.9

sf-600 bench 4.040" bore @ 28" with a clayed inlet and exhaust pipe

Almost looks like the "no spark plug" flow test.

 

I just tool a look at Elliot's site and I will definitely be getting in contact with him. Might have to sell some of the parts and already bought. It's that urge for more power taking over before I even begin.

 

I'm having some more things done to the heads and the flow sheets of my Trick Flows and the LT4's are in the same box as my heads. But, for sure those are not the same numbers. The exhaust was done w/o a pipe and was just over 200 cfm. I was concentrating on other things at the time and frankly didn't pay close enough attention to all the numbers that I can quote them completely from memory.

These are real flow sheets..... computer printouts from the flow bench from a real shop and not something off the internet. The heads might be ready in a week or so and I’ll gladly scan and e-mail the sheets to ya.

Like you…….. I had personally never seem what I thought were actual flow numbers over 300 cfm for LT castings as none of the prior “300 cfm” heads I paid to have reflowed were even close. The last set of "300 cfm" LT4 heads I was going to buy flowed 283 on Lloyd's bench and that's typical of what I'm used to seeing.

I’m a believer now.

 

That 290cfm @ .500 goes beyond rules of physics and material you have to work with in the head. If there was a 2.08 valve in that head, I could belive those numbers. There is just not enough curtain area to get numbers like that with a 2.00" valve. If I see it on my bench and then see the same heads make power i'll belive it.

Bret

 

They had 2.05 intake valves and don't know about the exhaust. Again.... my jaw was on the floor as these are not made up numbers. As mentioned, I'll gladly e-mail you guys a scanned flow sheet.

 

Phil here under the "old man's" screenname...

I've rarely got time to be around the computer these days but here's a few brief thoughts...

The TFS head IMO shows a great deal of promise based on the development we've been doing with TFS and a couple racers we both sponsor. As cast they're actually useable and IMO for a mild setup are worth the price. The casting and machinework is actually nice (especially for the $), and they even flow what they claim out of the box. For a stock shortblock application I would suggest speaking with a head shop about setting a set up for your specific app, but aside from that the package with parts from TFS really isnt a bad deal considering they flow what the usual "270cfm" lt heads actually do (around 254cfm for the TFS head). The exhaust numbers are also what they should be as well considering the intake port, but honestly, buying a head based on flow numbers is like buying a car based solely on the info the marketing team put in the brochure as opposed to real-world results.

On porting them, they're like most other 23deg castings. Of course, also like most other castings they have a couple of their own little quirks that we had to sort out to go from a head that just flows well to one that both flows well and actually runs hard. The former is very easy, and IMO it may make buying the right TFS based head difficult for flowbench racers. The little quirks are certainly nothing impossible to overcome, but getting our flow numbers, discharge coefficients, wet flow, swirl, velocity, etc. where we like to see them has taken a little time. For what it's worth, with a good head porter, an honest 300cfm around .600-.650 on an SF600 @ 28" with a 4.030" bore is do-able with just a 2.02 valve at under 210cc. Actually, we're currently trying to decide on a couple versions to CNC as we've got 4 or 5 candidates from 280cfm to 318cfm. Hopefully we can get our dyno & track testing wrapped up in the next month or so & get on with the show. This year will be pretty busy for us, as we've got several new LT1 offerings we've been developing over the past 6-8mos that should represent a great value for what you actually get, as well as a couple LT based cars that should certainly raise some eyebrows at the track.

Hope this helps,

-Phil

EDIT:

I must type a great deal slower than I used to... when I started to reply you didn't even have any responses .

Based on what you're saying, the as-cast TFS head with the right components is probably going to satisfy you, and could be re-worked at a later date to increase their capacity if you're on a tight budget. Also, I'd highly recommend NOT grinding on them at all if you do go with a bare head and your own components. Otherwise a good head based on a production lt1 casting may be the better choice. The only advice I can really offer aside from that is that this is a business based on hours, and there aren't really any shortcuts, so beware of people who claim they can get you something 'just as good' for an inordinately low $ figure. They're either working for $8/hr, or aren't putting the same amount of hours into something & it's almost invariably the latter .

Good luck!

-Phil

 

[QUOTE=AiSr]
The exhaust numbers are also what they should be as well considering the intake port, but honestly, buying a head based on flow numbers is like buying a car based solely on the info the marketing team put in the brochure as opposed to real-world results.

On porting them, they're like most other 23deg castings. Of course, also like most other castings they have a couple of their own little quirks that we had to sort out to go from a head that just flows well to one that both flows well and actually runs hard. The former is very easy, and IMO it may make buying the right TFS based head difficult for flowbench racers

[QUOTE=AiSr]

Phil

I always enjoy your posts as I try and pick up something out of every one. Being I put my wallet where my mouth is, I’m curious regarding your comment on the exhaust flow numbers.

As cast these heads didn’t flow well at all on the exhaust side between .150 and .450 lift. Again I'm shooting from the hip as I don’t have the flow sheets in front of me, but I was quite disappointed in them. The intakes are very good but the intake to exhaust ratio’s are not good. Even after porting they were still low compared to virtually every head I seen ported including LT1’s. I need to look at the heads, but I’m sure the valves were undercut to improve low lift numbers. What’s your take on that and is this one of the “quirks” your referring to? Could I just have gotten a strange set??


Agreed flow numbers paint only part of the story but for the most part it’s the only thing us lay people have to objectively compare various heads. If discharge coefficients, wet flow, swirl and velocity are as or more important, then why does no one include them on the spec sheets??

If the Performance Trends software was written correctly, the valve size plays a critical role in making hp and even though some heads show terrific flow numbers; they make no more power than a smaller valves head with less gross flow. Is that your take also?

Please don’t write a book, but I’m very interested in your thoughts.

 

[QUOTE=AiSr]
The exhaust numbers are also what they should be as well considering the intake port, but honestly, buying a head based on flow numbers is like buying a car based solely on the info the marketing team put in the brochure as opposed to real-world results.

On porting them, they're like most other 23deg castings. Of course, also like most other castings they have a couple of their own little quirks that we had to sort out to go from a head that just flows well to one that both flows well and actually runs hard. The former is very easy, and IMO it may make buying the right TFS based head difficult for flowbench racers

Humm... for some reason only half my post made it. Here is the part that didn't.


[QUOTE=AiSr]

Phil

I always enjoy your posts as I try and pick up something out of every one. Being I put my wallet where my mouth is, I’m curious regarding your comment on the exhaust flow numbers.

As cast these heads didn’t flow well at all on the exhaust side between .150 and .450 lift. Again I'm shooting from the hip as I don’t have the flow sheets in front of me, but I was quite disappointed in them. The intakes are very good but the intake to exhaust ratio’s are not good. Even after porting they were still low compared to virtually every head I seen ported including LT1’s. I need to look at the heads, but I’m sure the valves were undercut to improve low lift numbers. What’s your take on that and is this one of the “quirks” your referring to? Could I just have gotten a strange set??