Has anyone had a problem with these rings? I used them on my new motor and it blows the blues. I have 250 miles on the motor hoping it would get beter, but now I am thinking it won't.

 

I think they require a different hone grit?[not positive but pretty sure]
I put em in my Harley a few yrs ago and recall that..
Work fine for Me
I used em in a 350 boat motor, too, and no probs there either
Might take longer to break in than reg rings tho..
You using reg or synthetic oil?

 

I have heard alot of horror stories regarding Total Seal rings. My buddy used Total Seal Rings on his 383 rebuild and he burned about a 1 quart of oil every 1000 miles. Thinking it was bad rings he had Total seal send him another set and it still smoked.

 

not using synthetic oil. I hate the thought of having to rebuild a brand new motor.

 

I was wondering about these also after checking out that article in PHR or whatever it was. Anyone used them with any luck?

 

I absolutlely love these rings, Mtrhds94Z is right, you have to hone the block to a certain spec, but once that's done and you assemble the motor correctly they work awesome.

The Max Seal rings which are the top gapless rings are a great design, and they work awesome. The leakdown numbers with them are close to perfect as you can get.

I'm not alone with this either Keith Dorton who is the winningest Hooters Cup engine builder and brother of Randy Dorton. (the head engine guy at Hendrick) I would guess that Randy and Kieth talk about things like this. Anyways here is a good article by Kieth http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/58040/

On top of that David Vizzard wrote an article about them in one of the latest circle track issues.

Guys can get good results without these rings, but they offer so many benefits that as long as you hone the block correctly, and install them correctly you will never have test rings gaps for exact gap and they are very safe to run also.

For guys that think they are junk. I'm not here to change your mind, if you think that, it's only better for me.

Bret

 

As far as the cylinder hone goes, what exactly is different from a "standard" hone?? Is this a cost effective measure to take, and can your average rebuilder do it?? Anyone know if Nu-Tek or Combination Motorsports uses/has used these gapless rings?

 

I looked on Total Seal's site no mention of the hone process[possibly you could email them?]
As I recall it involved a finer grit?[not that difficult.. I remember doing it myself?]
Also, note that the rings may pull a bit more vacuum too, and if the valve seals are marginal, it would increase leakage there?Just a thought..

 

Yes, depending on the cylinder material (sleeves may be different from production cast block), and specific ring, they have a detailed procedure which specifies stone numbers (grits and bond), and number of strokes with each stone (two or three steps). This is to achieve the correct average finish (Ra) and the correct total depth of the hone "scratches" (Rz). Ask them.

These honing procedures are not necessarily what many engine builders currently use. Sometimes a closed mind is difficult to open. If you want to use these rings, make sure your engine builder, or at least the block guy, is on the same page and agrees to follow the recommendations.

Bret's lucky to have a machinist/block guy who has a very open mind. He (block guy) was skeptical at first, but I think he became a believer after the first block. Not that he uses gapless on all (or even most) engines, but he's great to work with on different, or "out-of-the-box" ideas.

You need to follow Total Seal's recomendations, as noted by Keith Dorton in the Circle Track article. If not, don't waste you money on the rings.

My opinionated $.02

 

A good shop can do the hone right, but unless they have access to a profileometer (measures surface finish of the bore) you can never tell if it's exactly right.

To me I feel they are cost effectivce for the racer or owner of the motor. You can go longer on the motor without a rebuild and the leakdown numbers for a long time are awesome. A rebuild including a deglaze hone is going to run you much more than the extra $$$ for the rings.

It would have to be a special request for someone like Combo or Nu-Tek I would imagine. A set package price motor is going to go up when you run a $230 set of rings. Those guys are building a package street motor for a certain cost, Race motors or a custom speced motor would be more appropriate with these things.

I'm a beliver and a user of these rings, they cost sometimes over twice as much, but the life of the ring set is much greater giving you added performance for a longer period of time. I've done some motors lately on std rings, and I have to say that these things are a must on any motor I do from now on.

If you can't tell I like them.

Bret

 

I sent Total seal an email, we will se what they have to say about it.

 

Well... that circletrack article was certainly a nice advertisement .

Are cup guys using Total Seal rings? Many that I know of here in the CLT/Mooresville area, sure.

Are they all using a gapless TS ring? Nope, TS is making them gapped stuff .



From what I gather, it goes in spurts... people will go back and forth btwn gapless and gapped, but I think that article was more propaganda with some obvious information than it was informative...

If i can spend $125 on a set of rings & make the same power as a $200+ set... why should I spend the extra $ on the gapless stuff? Properly gapped, it's going to close up anyway when running. Moreover, you're more able to control the tension of the gapped ring. A low leakdown # is neat, but in a running engine I have a hard time believing going from 7-8% to something like 2% makes enough difference to matter for most people (and we're only looking at lower being better, not really the effects of leakdown it seems). Ring life? Hey, if it lasts long enough, why do I need it to last forever? Apparently the cup guys don't think it makes much of a difference, with them running gapped stuff and all .

Dunno, but thats phil's always humble opinion. Maybe I'd change my mind if I saw first hand positive results, but currently I'll just take the word of those with alot more experience than most (& not words twisted by the marketing dept. @ some magazine) .

 

I find phone conversations to be much more productive than email.

OK, you obviously consider them very effective. On paper, these gapless top rings appear to be ideal for a turbo engine, with it's wide variation of operating temps. However, I've read reports of less than favorable experiences, from a durability stand point, using the TS ring with turbo setups. What is your take on usage of the TS ring in turbo applications, or any reports from those that have used the gapless top ring in these engines?

This post was in response to the following:
I looked on Total Seal's site no mention of the hone process[possibly you could email them?]
As I recall it involved a finer grit?[not that difficult.. I remember doing it myself?]

OldSStroker, am I to interpret this to mean that the wall finish builders are accustomed to, is too coarse for the TS gapless top ring? Phone conversation with the source informed me the popular/accepted finish is too fine for the TS ring. In lieu of the popular 400 grit finish, TS recommended a 280 finish. Am I to believe/accept the info from TS is not accurate?

 

arnie..
I may have been in error saying finer .. perhaps it WAS coarser.. all I recall is that it was a different honing grit and process?[this was a few yrs ago]
I still have the rings in the panhead and it runs fine[about 7-8 yrs now perhaps 30-40k mi]
boat [350 chevy] is long gone, so I can't say how that runs now, but it ran good when I had it..
280 [grit] does ring a bell now that you mention it...
I looked for the paperwork/instructions today, but I must have tossed it out..
Charlie

 

Phil,

If Vizzard and Dorton are writing about these things I doubt they are doing it entirely for advertising. True there is alot of BS in mags, especially GMHTP.

Propperly gapped is one thing, finding that gap in a variety of motors is very hard to do for all operating conditions. Unless you have a dyno and some time on your hands. Most guys on here would benefit from a gapless ring. The big difference between the WC guys and us is what's at our disposal and to make the most out of it. 7% - 1% is a big gain, and there is definately power to be found there. I know head guys think all the power is in the heads, but keeping the force on top of the chamber is pretty important too. That extra 5cfm you eak out of a head is worth **** when your leakdown is 6% greater, or your ring gap is too big. Which it has to be because if the motors temp goes up an extra 10 degs the whole thing could be junk.

It's a big question of cost benefit I'll admit. Most guys like Tony Stewart and Kurt Busch know that their 260deg motor will be replaced or know enough to shut it off. Local guys at circle tracks have one motor most of the time and do all sorts of stupid **** to them. I've seen valve guides fall out of a head because it ran to hot, you better believe that those cylinder walls were junk at that point too from the ring gap closing up. Building a motor to handle crap like that and still get running the next week has it's own challenges. If you only have to fix the heads and not the short block it makes that much more of a benefit.

Vizzards artivcle is in Speedway Illustrated http://www.speedwayillustrated.com/curissue.php

That one goes into the other reasons why the gapless tops are good.

Total Seal is making the WC guys rings because they can make accurate rings, not just because of the gapless technology.

Arnie,

The problem with the gapless tops is that in a turbo engine there is too much heat and the rings probably will not hold up to that. I know they only recomend those rings for minor N2O and not for blowers or turbos. As you said a call to them to find the right ring would be a good idea.

As for the finish, I'm sure my old man will have something to say about that. I think builders generally do to fine of a surface finish. The cross hatch we have done to TS specs is very ugly but it works like a champ.

Bret