Powerprogrammer vs. 160 deg thermostat.
02-03-2003, 11:41 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Abilene, TX USA
Posts: 45
Remaxracer,
It might be, unless the Hypertech alters your air/fuel curve to run leaner. My experience-- the stock LT1 runs rich to begin with. Going to a cooler stat will cause the PCM to sense lower coolant temperatures and modify the timing and mixture through the trim fuel tables to run even richer. This is a good thing if you are running higher compression, boost, or N2O. But running too rich will not improve your low-end performance. If your PCM is re-programed to run a leaner A/F curve, then the 160*stat will help keep you out of detonation. But the 160* stat by itself will not give you ANY HP gains. It's not a HP mod, it's a mod to help you engine handle other mods that put you closer to detonation. Most of your mods are to help the engine breathe better, but if you alter the PCM progran then the 160* stat may be a good thing. As long as my fans keep the temp below 210, I doubt I will ever put mine back in as long as I keep as stock engine, and my car sees a lot of summer days in Texas over 100*.
Regards,
Dave
It might be, unless the Hypertech alters your air/fuel curve to run leaner. My experience-- the stock LT1 runs rich to begin with. Going to a cooler stat will cause the PCM to sense lower coolant temperatures and modify the timing and mixture through the trim fuel tables to run even richer. This is a good thing if you are running higher compression, boost, or N2O. But running too rich will not improve your low-end performance. If your PCM is re-programed to run a leaner A/F curve, then the 160*stat will help keep you out of detonation. But the 160* stat by itself will not give you ANY HP gains. It's not a HP mod, it's a mod to help you engine handle other mods that put you closer to detonation. Most of your mods are to help the engine breathe better, but if you alter the PCM progran then the 160* stat may be a good thing. As long as my fans keep the temp below 210, I doubt I will ever put mine back in as long as I keep as stock engine, and my car sees a lot of summer days in Texas over 100*.
Regards,
Dave
02-03-2003, 11:46 AM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 27,710
Originally posted by remaxracer45
Awesome conversation, you guys are pretty sharp and make alot of sense. Question is how to magazines like GM high tech get 12-14 horse off a Hypertech and a 160 degree stat? I ask as my programer and stat are on the way. I have a 52 mm throttle body with foil, tb bypass, a KanN cold air kit, iat relocation kit, SLP loud mouth and a trans go shift kit. Is this a waste of $.
I did have a JET stage two which made a ton of difference?
Thanks
Awesome conversation, you guys are pretty sharp and make alot of sense. Question is how to magazines like GM high tech get 12-14 horse off a Hypertech and a 160 degree stat? I ask as my programer and stat are on the way. I have a 52 mm throttle body with foil, tb bypass, a KanN cold air kit, iat relocation kit, SLP loud mouth and a trans go shift kit. Is this a waste of $.
I did have a JET stage two which made a ton of difference?
Thanks
The better and more versatile alternative is to go with custom programming or get LT1_edit or Tunercat where you can do the programming yourself. This way you can make changes as you see fit and are not stuck with one program that is made to be a "one size fits all" solution.
02-03-2003, 12:36 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near waco tx.
Posts: 2,058
Originally posted by LT1der
Remaxracer,
It might be, unless the Hypertech alters your air/fuel curve to run leaner. My experience-- the stock LT1 runs rich to begin with. Going to a cooler stat will cause the PCM to sense lower coolant temperatures and modify the timing and mixture through the trim fuel tables to run even richer. This is a good thing if you are running higher compression, boost, or N2O. But running too rich will not improve your low-end performance. If your PCM is re-programed to run a leaner A/F curve, then the 160*stat will help keep you out of detonation. But the 160* stat by itself will not give you ANY HP gains. It's not a HP mod, it's a mod to help you engine handle other mods that put you closer to detonation. Most of your mods are to help the engine breathe better, but if you alter the PCM progran then the 160* stat may be a good thing. As long as my fans keep the temp below 210, I doubt I will ever put mine back in as long as I keep as stock engine, and my car sees a lot of summer days in Texas over 100*.
Regards,
Dave
Remaxracer,
It might be, unless the Hypertech alters your air/fuel curve to run leaner. My experience-- the stock LT1 runs rich to begin with. Going to a cooler stat will cause the PCM to sense lower coolant temperatures and modify the timing and mixture through the trim fuel tables to run even richer. This is a good thing if you are running higher compression, boost, or N2O. But running too rich will not improve your low-end performance. If your PCM is re-programed to run a leaner A/F curve, then the 160*stat will help keep you out of detonation. But the 160* stat by itself will not give you ANY HP gains. It's not a HP mod, it's a mod to help you engine handle other mods that put you closer to detonation. Most of your mods are to help the engine breathe better, but if you alter the PCM progran then the 160* stat may be a good thing. As long as my fans keep the temp below 210, I doubt I will ever put mine back in as long as I keep as stock engine, and my car sees a lot of summer days in Texas over 100*.
Regards,
Dave
my car ran alot stronger at 160 than 180 and when i had the a/f ratio adjusted and then fans to cycle at lower temp that really helped it then.
you said that these cars run rich yes they do but thats only at wot. these cars will hit 11.0 to 1 at wot, but every day driving its 14.0 to 1 this is where it gets the best emmisions and fuel economy. and ill be honest with you i dont like my car running 190 to 200 all the time.
and i noticed 0 change in the heaters performance. blows just as hot as it did stock.
and yes this is a great topic with alot of valueble info.
02-03-2003, 12:56 PM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Abilene, TX USA
Posts: 45
What I'm saying is you won't be at 14:1 if you run a 160* stat with a stock PCM/stock engine in cold weather. The fuel trim tables will kick in and make you run richer when the coolant temp sensor sees lower temps. 14:1 is where you need to be, except during warm-up and WOT.
The fans probably have more to do with keeping the temp down in hot weather than the thermostat. My experience is, the car won't run hotter in the summer with a 180* thermostat, but it will get hotter sooner that with a 160* thermostat. Even at 210, you are nowhere near overheating. My car runs right below 190 at highway speeds, and only gets over 200 when I'm not moving or in slow traffic in the summertime, but I don't have a stock radiator. In the winter it maintains whatever thermostat temp I have in the car. It ran 150-160 last month when I drove it north, and now it stays at 180 after I swapped.
Just wondering, why do you think running 190-200 is a problem with a stock engine and PCM? Unless you have done mods to increase compression or alter the PCM, the LT1 is engineered to run at those temperatures.
If you are in Waco, you probably would't notice a difference in heater performance. I didn't notice it in Abilene, but I darn sure saw a difference when I brought the car to Louisville this winter.
Generally speaking, cooler is better, but you can run too cool if it affects your mixture.
Regards,
Dave
The fans probably have more to do with keeping the temp down in hot weather than the thermostat. My experience is, the car won't run hotter in the summer with a 180* thermostat, but it will get hotter sooner that with a 160* thermostat. Even at 210, you are nowhere near overheating. My car runs right below 190 at highway speeds, and only gets over 200 when I'm not moving or in slow traffic in the summertime, but I don't have a stock radiator. In the winter it maintains whatever thermostat temp I have in the car. It ran 150-160 last month when I drove it north, and now it stays at 180 after I swapped.
Just wondering, why do you think running 190-200 is a problem with a stock engine and PCM? Unless you have done mods to increase compression or alter the PCM, the LT1 is engineered to run at those temperatures.
If you are in Waco, you probably would't notice a difference in heater performance. I didn't notice it in Abilene, but I darn sure saw a difference when I brought the car to Louisville this winter.
Generally speaking, cooler is better, but you can run too cool if it affects your mixture.
Regards,
Dave
02-03-2003, 01:15 PM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near waco tx.
Posts: 2,058
well i drive to dallas often in the winter. and still noticed no difference. once my car hits 160 i can turn the heater on and have no problem warming the car up and it dont take long. now my buddy put a 160 in his car and it would not heat his car at all. then he put the 190 back in and it worked great.
now i do disagree with you on the a/f ratio when cold. if the a/f stays at 14. to 1, it doesnt change. its just the air is denser and the car adds more fuel becuase of the dense air. its just like 2 to 1 is the same as 6 to 3 the ratio is the same, theres just more air in the same alotted space so you get more fuel added to that space. the ratio stays the same.
im not saying that its not safe to run 190 200 degrees but these cars already have a pretty good bit of compression stock. thats another reason you should run 92 or 93 octane to help stop knock. but there is noticable difference with a 160 stat on a stock car, well it was in my case. and my car stays at 160 on highway and somtimes 175 in the city. at least thats what it did this weekend in dallas.
correct me if im seeing something wrong here.
now i do disagree with you on the a/f ratio when cold. if the a/f stays at 14. to 1, it doesnt change. its just the air is denser and the car adds more fuel becuase of the dense air. its just like 2 to 1 is the same as 6 to 3 the ratio is the same, theres just more air in the same alotted space so you get more fuel added to that space. the ratio stays the same.
im not saying that its not safe to run 190 200 degrees but these cars already have a pretty good bit of compression stock. thats another reason you should run 92 or 93 octane to help stop knock. but there is noticable difference with a 160 stat on a stock car, well it was in my case. and my car stays at 160 on highway and somtimes 175 in the city. at least thats what it did this weekend in dallas.
correct me if im seeing something wrong here.
02-03-2003, 01:31 PM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vicenza, Italy
Posts: 279
Originally posted by shoebox
As I said before, something was wrong, plain and simple.
The people here are running computer controlled ignitions. They are trying to push the limits of performance. Proof it is a cheap fix? Again, your logic eludes me.
Yeah, I guess your POV results from a bad experience that few people have had and probably puts you in the 1% minority. Call it a cheap fix if you want, but the theory has been used in the auto performance market for many years, including back when computers were not even used. You can credit Hypertech for making it a popular cheap fix in recent years.
As I said before, something was wrong, plain and simple.
The people here are running computer controlled ignitions. They are trying to push the limits of performance. Proof it is a cheap fix? Again, your logic eludes me.
Yeah, I guess your POV results from a bad experience that few people have had and probably puts you in the 1% minority. Call it a cheap fix if you want, but the theory has been used in the auto performance market for many years, including back when computers were not even used. You can credit Hypertech for making it a popular cheap fix in recent years.
Its more trouble on fuel-injected cars IMO, but again, my opinion.
02-03-2003, 01:49 PM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Jackson, NJ, USA
Posts: 1,319
As for the hypertech, i DO DISPUTE there claims, on lt1's anyway, i tested it myself back to back runs with and without, no noticable gain. If there is a gain, it's like 5 hp, woopdedo, total waste. And thats on stock cars too, once u start modifying the programer is a waste. IMO, i wouldn't waste any of my money on programers or jet chips unless u get head/cam/etc and then go get a dyno tune. I'm only running there fan reprogram and the stat mainly for my nitrous setup, spraying 100 shot on 93 octane with no timing pulled(got colder plugs though), don't waste your time buying a programer for the "power" tuning, buy it for the other features. U know for the price of a programer, u can buy a nitrous kit, lol................
Last edited by Hawk; 02-03-2003 at 01:51 PM.
02-03-2003, 03:17 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Abilene, TX USA
Posts: 45
"if the a/f stays at 14. to 1, it doesnt change. its just the air is denser and the car adds more fuel becuase of the dense air. its just like 2 to 1 is the same as 6 to 3 the ratio is the same, theres just more air in the same alotted space so you get more fuel added to that space. the ratio stays the same."
I drive Abilene to DFW a lot too, but we've had a pretty mild winter. Get below 20*, and I bet you would notice a difference. Of course, my LT1 Vega is not a factory setup, and I bet I notice it more because my heater setup is not as efficient as a '93-'97 factory setup. As you say, others have noticed the problem, too.
Here's where I disagree-- The core fuel tables in the PCM are all trying to drive the A/F ratio to a stoichiometric value of 14.7 to 1 for best economy and lowest emissions. The O2 sensors tell the PCM what the actual ratio is, and the PCM commands fuel and timing changes in closed loop. The fuel trim tables are driven by the other sensors-- coolant temp, air inlet temp, etc. They send small voltage changes to the PCM to command changes to the A/F ratio in response to actual conditions. If they send a null signal the A/F stays at 14.7 to 1 (assuming closed loop, not at WOT, or initial warm-up). If they send a different value, it modifies the A/F ratio and makes it leaner or richer in response to actual conditions. So if a 190* coolant temp is considered "normal", 160* would be result in a richer ratio and 210* would require a leaner ratio. Even though 14.7 to 1 is what the PCM wants in closed loop, it will vary that based on actual conditions as reporetd by the sensors. A stock PCM will keep that richer ratio until it sees a warmer coolant temperature. If it never gets that, it stays rich.
If you go to the ACCEL EMIC Installation website, Ray Bohacz has a pretty good article on how EFI systems work that explains it a little more technically than I have here.
I drive Abilene to DFW a lot too, but we've had a pretty mild winter. Get below 20*, and I bet you would notice a difference. Of course, my LT1 Vega is not a factory setup, and I bet I notice it more because my heater setup is not as efficient as a '93-'97 factory setup. As you say, others have noticed the problem, too.
Here's where I disagree-- The core fuel tables in the PCM are all trying to drive the A/F ratio to a stoichiometric value of 14.7 to 1 for best economy and lowest emissions. The O2 sensors tell the PCM what the actual ratio is, and the PCM commands fuel and timing changes in closed loop. The fuel trim tables are driven by the other sensors-- coolant temp, air inlet temp, etc. They send small voltage changes to the PCM to command changes to the A/F ratio in response to actual conditions. If they send a null signal the A/F stays at 14.7 to 1 (assuming closed loop, not at WOT, or initial warm-up). If they send a different value, it modifies the A/F ratio and makes it leaner or richer in response to actual conditions. So if a 190* coolant temp is considered "normal", 160* would be result in a richer ratio and 210* would require a leaner ratio. Even though 14.7 to 1 is what the PCM wants in closed loop, it will vary that based on actual conditions as reporetd by the sensors. A stock PCM will keep that richer ratio until it sees a warmer coolant temperature. If it never gets that, it stays rich.
If you go to the ACCEL EMIC Installation website, Ray Bohacz has a pretty good article on how EFI systems work that explains it a little more technically than I have here.
02-03-2003, 03:35 PM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: near waco tx.
Posts: 2,058
i see what your saying now about the pcm. but im getting 25 mpg. so ok with it with my asmileage. i check it yesterday.
but i have drove when it was 16 degrees out at night (less than a month ago) and when my car warmed up to 160 turn the heat on and the car got so warm i couldnt breath. my heater works great. but ive heard of some fbodys not taking well to the 160 stat (as far as the heater goes). i guees im lucky
but i have drove when it was 16 degrees out at night (less than a month ago) and when my car warmed up to 160 turn the heat on and the car got so warm i couldnt breath. my heater works great. but ive heard of some fbodys not taking well to the 160 stat (as far as the heater goes). i guees im lucky
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post