hey all. for a while now i have been trying to sell my car, for you who dont know...and i'm actually kinda glad the noone bought it. friday, last week i had a small problem. the thing started misfiring, making some aweful noises, and i shut it off immediately. i towed the car to the air force base to break it down and find out what happened.

i found out, by taking off the valve cover, that i had 'dropped a valve'. at first i was pissed...this means that i not only lost a rotating assembly, i also lost my head, and valvetrain. then i got to looking closer. i had 4 out of 8 valve retainers cracked with a 5th that was the problem in the first place. the thing had completely broken, on all 360 degrees of the retainer...the spring sat higher than the retaining clip. the valve lock was completely toar up. wouldnt even fit in the retainer any more. there were chunks of metal everywhere, including the chipped parts from the other 4 retainers. this was only on the driver's side, i havent even looked under the other's cover.

i have not talked to comp becaues it's 'after hours' so i'll update tomorrow with their plans. i'm wondering what they're going to say since it's all their components that broke.

i had less than 11k miles on these components, and i'm sure they should last a little longer than that. i never 'tracked' the car, and i never redlined the car.

these are the parts i used:
07-306-8 full kit, included springs/retainers/timing chain and gears/lifters/cam/seals
1318-16 pro magnum rockers...they were supposed to work fine with above, i purchased them about 7k miles after installation of kit.

i'm a little unnerved...spending over a thousand bucks for a valvetrain and it breaking in less than an average 'driving year'.

 

I just went to Comp's site and looked up 07-306-8 and all it gave me was some minimal cam info.

Can you post the specs on the other valve train components, like springs, retainers, locks, etc.?

Jake

 

it's the complete kit, with all the valvetrain components. you have to look at the bottom of the page. there are 3 kits, a cam kit with lifters, one with timing, lifters, and cam, and the other includes all springs and above mentioned stuff.

the rocker are sold seperately. but you can get a 'complete' cam kit for roughly 600 bucks...maybe 500 now, this was 3 years ago...but i still only put 11k miles on the car

 

today i called and this is what i was told:

we need part numbers...
i dont have the part numbers...
without part numbers i can't help you...
is there any way to get the part numbers...
no, the only way is off the invoice, do you have that?
no, there are no markings on the springs?
no, there are not...
is there a way i can possibly match spring rates or heights? possibly measure the spring at a sitting value and at a specific compressed rate?
no, we can't match a spring that way
but they're sold that way, why can't i do this backwards
i need a part number, get the part number and i'll tell you whether or not i'll warranty the parts

so, for any of you that are planning on any engine work or buying parts, stash the reciepts somewhere, other than the wallet or console. they tend to get thrown away from these two spots...also, make a list of every part number and what it is so when you have a problem you know what you're dealing with. apparently the parts i recieved were not part of a kit, but a selection of 'custom' parts because my springs werent beehive springs. if they were i wouldnt have had a problem. so, either i was screwed by the seller, or the guy who put my engine together re-used some stock parts for whatever reason, or the seller though i'd bebetter off with standard springs for whatever reason...i dont know. but what i do know is i'm not going through this again and will use ONLY GM PARTS in the future.

the guy wasn't overly rude to me but was stubborn as to my warranty claim. it's not like i was asking for a new engine or whatever, just their components that failed. i verified with them that all these components would work together and now they're failed. now not only did i lose my valvetrain, but i lost the rest of my engine to go with it...

 

Well, to begin with, I had my car spin a bearing with less than 7K on the car after I had a small cam installed----no reason given---had to buy a new short block. Then----after the same outfit installed my new shortblock----with just a couple hundred miles on the new engine, A couple of RRs came off the valve stems (one each bank) and I dropped a valve (luckily no damage and had someone else redo the train, including heavier springs, shorter push rod (because I was using a longer one with the RRs and didn't know any better). Bottom line: I don't know why it happend, but at any rate, since I have SA RRs, there is definitely the risk of the Roller tip coming off the valve stem, beating the hell out of the keepers until the the retainers are knocked off and the valve drops into the cyl causing all hell to break out.

So my point is (if there is a point) is this: If you have SA RRS and/or your RRs are so loose or uncontrolled by the springs, or your push rod geometry is way off, you risk losing control of the valve, beating the hell out of the keepers and dropping a valve.

In my case, I still blame the mechanics, since I believe they initially installed the cam badly causing my bearings to spin and secondly I blame them for not checking the geometry of the push rod/RR and for not at least questioning strength of the springs, and finally not adjusting the RRs correctly.

So I guess that my advice, especially to the uninformed, is to make certain that the mechanics who work on your car use their knowledge and experience instead of just doing what the customer asks, regardless of how incorrect it might be, and that they take a good look at the combination to ensure that it is going to work. A good mechanic would do that.

I don't know what your situation is, but when you consider all the possibilities, you wind up either blaming the mechanic (if one was used) or taking the blame for not doing it right, which includes ensuring that the parts that you buy are the correct ones and are made well.

Good luck. JMHO

 

I've written on this issue more times than I can remember. What it boils down to is how little attention is given to valve train geomety. Sort of like phasing (degreeing) the camshaft; most don't do it.

VTG involves more than selecting the correct length pushrod (and many don't even do that). There are several different areas where interference and/or binding can occur and it's in those areas that careful measurements must be taken.

Most of the valve train companies, like CompCams, Crane, ISKY, etc., have long sections in their catalogs and on their website explaining where these potential problem areas are, how to check them and what the MINIMUM clearances should be.

I'm not immune either. I've been bitten by bent pushrods caused by pushrod slots in the heads being too short. I checked the intakes but not the exhaust so I ended up with a hand-full of bent exhaust pushrods. LESSON LEARNED.

I really feel that most of the valve train failures are the result of the installer failing to check and correct those clearance areas. I suspect that the failure of the actual part when used within it's design parameters, especially from big name companies, is rather rare.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

 

yes it is rare, but how is it that stock length push rods, and a cam kit that was sold as a complete kit, with springs, and is advertised to work with 1.6 rockers, would fail?

and, how is it that it was only on the driver's side? i looked at the passenger's side today and it looks pheonomenal...clean, no cracks, no stress marks, no heat marks, nothing.

any way, i'll be using GM parts form now on. i can get a lt4 hotcam kit for like 400 bucks, so when and if i get a new ltx engine that's what i'll use. soon i'll have all my spare parts for sale...wonder how much i should ask for this stuff...?? or just take it in the rear and toss it.

 

here's the pictures. not too bad, i thought i took more of the bad side, but i guess the didnt take or something...maybe i should look into a new memory card.

 

Any kit that comes with pushrods that have not been "fitted" is asking for trouble.

Any time new pushrods are installed they must be fitted using an adjustable checking pushrod. Did you check the rocker arm sweep and pattern when the valvetrain was assembled?

It looks like you have self-aligning rockers, if that is the case that is definitely a mistake with the CC306 camshaft. Should have used non-self aligning with guideplates.

It appears that you have ported heads, were they milled any? This would require a new pushrod that would not be stock length. Were the valves replaced, this could require new pushrods?

Was the block decked? This would require a new pushrod that would not be stock length.

I had my own bad experience with CC, I had 3 918 beehive springs break in less than 20 miles. That can truly be attributed to defects. The fact that you have nearly 11K miles on the components does not really point to defects in CC's craftsmanship.

I would bet you got bit by bad rocker geometry cause this appears to be very similar to something that happened to me last year. The fact that you have nearly 11K miles on the parts kind of reinforces this. The fact that you did not precisely measure for pushrods appears to be the big factor. I would chalk this one up as a very expensive mistake.

 

could be worse.
i dropped a valve in my Blown Alky 406 $15k down the drain.
and have broken many parts.
The only company who helped me replace everything for free
Is MOSER they kick ***.
I broke an axle in my dragster around half track, wheel went flying into the air.
they replaced the wheel, wilwood brake cal. rotor lines axle everything i asked.
All they wanted was pictures of the damage. thats it.

 

Parts fail...you got 11K miles out of some parts and I am sure you ran it hard more than a few times.

If you said 11 miles, you would be on track with throwing a **** storm.

Sorry for your misfortune but I think you are making more out of this than need be.

 

Was installed height checked when it was assembled??

Sounds like the valve train was trying to compress a coil bound spring.

That was just my first thoughts.

 

Not to beat this horse to death, I would like to say one thing (probably the only thing that I comprehend about the Lt1---or any other pushrod engine----. When you put in a cam, deck the heads, etc. the most important thing you need to take into consideration is the is the valve train----from the cam to the valve.

I see this all the time on this site, and from personal experience (unfortunately).

We just start slapping on bigger ratio RRs, SAs or Non-SAs, pay little attention to the geometry, the spring pressures, the adjustments, the cleanliness of the cam installation, etc. And then we wonder why the whole thing goes to hell.

Guess my point is to stress how important it is to ensure the integrity of the valve train and the cam install by actually planning it out with the advice of the pros, including those on this site.

It's really a no brainer. And as one who has experienced such catastrophic failures, costing mucho dinaro and endless suffering, I just want to re emphasize the importance of "doing it right" the first time or suffer the consequences. JMHO

 

I agree here. I used +.050 locks when I did mine and there just wasn't enough tip to keep the rocker on IMO. If you used locks like mine then I would see how you had problems.

 

Many of you guys are thinking along the exact same lines that I am.

No matter that the kit is designed to fit a certain application, everything still must be checked and verified. There are several variables that can cause the "designed to fit kit" NOT to fit properly.

I suspect, from the photos, the underside of the rocker arm(s) were hitting the retainer. I had this problem on several 8 second quarter mile BB engines running CRANE Gold 1.7 RRs. Had to grind the underside of the rockers for the needed clearance.

In fact, I just read an article in one of the mags - BB vs SB build-up comparison - where Comps (I believe they were Pro Magnums) RRs had to be ground in the exact same location to get retainer clearance.

Now we all know what an excellent reputation those RRs have; but ITit just goes to show that all clearances must still be checked.

BTW, CompCams specifically recommends NOT running SA rockers in high performance cam applications. For the 388 I'm now building, I dumped the SA setup and am going with hardened guide plates, hardened pushrods (.080 wall) and Scorpion 1.7 NON self-aligning RRs on 7/16" studs.

I use a magnafing glass (ala Sherlock Holmes) to watch my valvetrain as it cycles through revolutions (gots lots of miles on me so my eyes "ain't" what they use to be). I check while the engine is still on the stand and turn it over using a ratchet and crank snout socket. I stop turning repeatedly to check and measure.

I'm really sorry to read about your failure, but so this won't happen again, I hope it's a learning lesson. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger; I've had my share of issues over the years too. I've learned that "Attention to detail" is the key.

Jake