Disc to DRUM!? Crazy? Anyone done it? Heres my reasoning!
06-14-2003, 12:54 AM
#1
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Disc to DRUM!? Crazy? Anyone done it? Heres my reasoning!
Well, as we all know drum brakes have greater static frictional properties (ie, why almost all pickups use drum brakes - for parking)
Heres my reasoning-
A. Those calipers back there are too small to stop anything worth a rats ***
B. Front brakes are the weak link as is- too much weight transfer
C. It will make my footbrake stronger at the line, hence harder launches
D. Rotors are heavy man... so are calipers! Thats all rotating mass too!
E. Everyone at the light is claimin V6 (ok thats just a benifit
)
To try and compensate a bit i might run a duct back there to cool the drums off. But I dont do enough hard core turns to where it wil hurt me.
There is so much damn weight transfer i wouldn't be suprised if drum brakes would be suffient! because after all, get some calipers that are strong enough to lock the wheel. Then make them stronger. You wont stop any faster.
Any thoughts?
Heres my reasoning-
A. Those calipers back there are too small to stop anything worth a rats ***
B. Front brakes are the weak link as is- too much weight transfer
C. It will make my footbrake stronger at the line, hence harder launches
D. Rotors are heavy man... so are calipers! Thats all rotating mass too!
E. Everyone at the light is claimin V6 (ok thats just a benifit
)To try and compensate a bit i might run a duct back there to cool the drums off. But I dont do enough hard core turns to where it wil hurt me.
There is so much damn weight transfer i wouldn't be suprised if drum brakes would be suffient! because after all, get some calipers that are strong enough to lock the wheel. Then make them stronger. You wont stop any faster.
Any thoughts?
06-14-2003, 01:09 AM
#3
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I tell you what. You send me the whole disc brake setup off your car with all the brackets, lines, pads, rotors, etc and Ill send you back my stock disc brake setup off my Blazer being as it should go right back in
06-14-2003, 01:12 AM
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I don't post much here...but I don't think of bigger discs as "stronger", I think of them as a longer lever arm...when something is hard to turn, you can turn it a more precise amount with a longer lever arm because you are able to generate the torque you want with less force.
The reason therefore that I see bigger disc as beneficial is that you have more of an ability to manipulate and stay right on the braking threshold before lockup.
That said though, I don't think rear drums will hurt you...for an analogy, a friend of mine has a 93 caprice, I have a 96. We have the same front discs, but I have the rear discs that the impala SS got (standard on 94-96 9C1 caprice as well) and he has rear drums. After correcting GM's oversight on the brake proportioning in my car so my 4 discs all function properly...I really haven't noticed any better braking driving my car or his, they're both about equal in braking performance.
So yeah...I don't post a lot here (but I use the same screen name on ImpalaSSForum.com where I post and read a lot) and I do read a TON here. So I think that with the goals you have in mind...it might be worth it for you...just make sure to put in a new proportioning valve (I guess from a V6 or else go adjustable from the aftermarket) otherwise you'll have WAY too much pressure to the rear drums and they'll lockup on you when you're trying to casually stop in 10 times the distance you need to.
The reason therefore that I see bigger disc as beneficial is that you have more of an ability to manipulate and stay right on the braking threshold before lockup.
That said though, I don't think rear drums will hurt you...for an analogy, a friend of mine has a 93 caprice, I have a 96. We have the same front discs, but I have the rear discs that the impala SS got (standard on 94-96 9C1 caprice as well) and he has rear drums. After correcting GM's oversight on the brake proportioning in my car so my 4 discs all function properly...I really haven't noticed any better braking driving my car or his, they're both about equal in braking performance.
So yeah...I don't post a lot here (but I use the same screen name on ImpalaSSForum.com where I post and read a lot) and I do read a TON here. So I think that with the goals you have in mind...it might be worth it for you...just make sure to put in a new proportioning valve (I guess from a V6 or else go adjustable from the aftermarket) otherwise you'll have WAY too much pressure to the rear drums and they'll lockup on you when you're trying to casually stop in 10 times the distance you need to.
06-14-2003, 01:29 AM
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In my opinion, and it may be the exact opposite of everyone else's or whatever, I don't think it'd be worth it for you to have to switch to rear drums. My old truck (65 Ford) came stock with four wheel drum brakes and they suck major butt.
Talk about brake fade, one mid to hard stop and you might as well keep a long ways back from anything in front of you for about 5 or ten minutes. Everyone that pulls or hauls much with them usually converts to at least front disc.
A lot of the newer trucks are coming with 4 wheel disc now, I guess it just takes the truck industry a little more time to get all the cool stuff all the sports car guys have.
Honestly, I don't see much, if any, advantage in going to a rear drum brake setup. Yeah, calipers are heavy, but the stock ones are small, and a good size drum is pretty heavy too. When you do brake maintenance a lot of times you have to replace wheel cylinders as well, and some stuck drums can be a major pain in the butt to get off, like via torch and bfh(big f'ing hammer).
If there was something wrong w/your stock rear brakes and you just had a free drum set laying around it might not be that bad of an idea, and I suppose a relatively lightweight car doesn't need that much stopping power anyways. I can't figure out why all the newer sports cars and stuff would come with four wheel discs though if they weren't a little better. And if you keep your discs, you won't have to worry about extra cooling lines.
Talk about brake fade, one mid to hard stop and you might as well keep a long ways back from anything in front of you for about 5 or ten minutes. Everyone that pulls or hauls much with them usually converts to at least front disc.
A lot of the newer trucks are coming with 4 wheel disc now, I guess it just takes the truck industry a little more time to get all the cool stuff all the sports car guys have.
Honestly, I don't see much, if any, advantage in going to a rear drum brake setup. Yeah, calipers are heavy, but the stock ones are small, and a good size drum is pretty heavy too. When you do brake maintenance a lot of times you have to replace wheel cylinders as well, and some stuck drums can be a major pain in the butt to get off, like via torch and bfh(big f'ing hammer).
If there was something wrong w/your stock rear brakes and you just had a free drum set laying around it might not be that bad of an idea, and I suppose a relatively lightweight car doesn't need that much stopping power anyways. I can't figure out why all the newer sports cars and stuff would come with four wheel discs though if they weren't a little better. And if you keep your discs, you won't have to worry about extra cooling lines.
06-14-2003, 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by jbird
In my opinion, and it may be the exact opposite of everyone else's or whatever, I don't think it'd be worth it for you to have to switch to rear drums. My old truck (65 Ford) came stock with four wheel drum brakes and they suck major butt.
Talk about brake fade, one mid to hard stop and you might as well keep a long ways back from anything in front of you for about 5 or ten minutes. Everyone that pulls or hauls much with them usually converts to at least front disc.
A lot of the newer trucks are coming with 4 wheel disc now, I guess it just takes the truck industry a little more time to get all the cool stuff all the sports car guys have.
Honestly, I don't see much, if any, advantage in going to a rear drum brake setup. Yeah, calipers are heavy, but the stock ones are small, and a good size drum is pretty heavy too. When you do brake maintenance a lot of times you have to replace wheel cylinders as well, and some stuck drums can be a major pain in the butt to get off, like via torch and bfh(big f'ing hammer).
If there was something wrong w/your stock rear brakes and you just had a free drum set laying around it might not be that bad of an idea, and I suppose a relatively lightweight car doesn't need that much stopping power anyways. I can't figure out why all the newer sports cars and stuff would come with four wheel discs though if they weren't a little better. And if you keep your discs, you won't have to worry about extra cooling lines.
In my opinion, and it may be the exact opposite of everyone else's or whatever, I don't think it'd be worth it for you to have to switch to rear drums. My old truck (65 Ford) came stock with four wheel drum brakes and they suck major butt.
Talk about brake fade, one mid to hard stop and you might as well keep a long ways back from anything in front of you for about 5 or ten minutes. Everyone that pulls or hauls much with them usually converts to at least front disc.
A lot of the newer trucks are coming with 4 wheel disc now, I guess it just takes the truck industry a little more time to get all the cool stuff all the sports car guys have.
Honestly, I don't see much, if any, advantage in going to a rear drum brake setup. Yeah, calipers are heavy, but the stock ones are small, and a good size drum is pretty heavy too. When you do brake maintenance a lot of times you have to replace wheel cylinders as well, and some stuck drums can be a major pain in the butt to get off, like via torch and bfh(big f'ing hammer).
If there was something wrong w/your stock rear brakes and you just had a free drum set laying around it might not be that bad of an idea, and I suppose a relatively lightweight car doesn't need that much stopping power anyways. I can't figure out why all the newer sports cars and stuff would come with four wheel discs though if they weren't a little better. And if you keep your discs, you won't have to worry about extra cooling lines.
park brake = drum and the surface is the inner diameter of the rotor hat.
to stop normally it uses calipers.
I'm not saying drum brakes stop faster, i'm saying they may have some advantages in my applicaiton
06-14-2003, 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by jbird
A lot of the newer trucks are coming with 4 wheel disc now, I guess it just takes the truck industry a little more time to get all the cool stuff all the sports car guys have.
A lot of the newer trucks are coming with 4 wheel disc now, I guess it just takes the truck industry a little more time to get all the cool stuff all the sports car guys have.
06-14-2003, 02:07 AM
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dodge is going back to drum-
but only for cost reduction.
which has greater everyday braking capabilites is not the issue being brought up here guys.... that answer is obvious.
I am questioning weight, launch and zero drag
but only for cost reduction.
which has greater everyday braking capabilites is not the issue being brought up here guys.... that answer is obvious.
I am questioning weight, launch and zero drag
06-14-2003, 05:07 AM
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im fairly certain your logic of
"if its already strong enough to lock up, nothing larger will help stop beter"
is wrong...
heres why:
it would seem reasonable that since you can lock up the wheels already, the brakes are MORE than strong enough... but in reality the surface area of the two compontents (pads, rotors) is to blame...
only so much friction can be present in a certain surface area... before lock up occurs (0 friction)... a larger surface area (larger rotors, larger diameter, larger pads) allows more friction to occur before it is too much (lockup)...
we all know that abs is better for braking... because having the friction of the brakes slowing the car is better than the friction between the tires sliding on the road... so the idea is to keep the brakes at the maximum pressure possible, with maximum friction, without locking up... bigger brakes do that..
im not a scientist... so i couldn't use more specific special terms in my description... but i hope that helps...
"if its already strong enough to lock up, nothing larger will help stop beter"
is wrong...
heres why:
it would seem reasonable that since you can lock up the wheels already, the brakes are MORE than strong enough... but in reality the surface area of the two compontents (pads, rotors) is to blame...
only so much friction can be present in a certain surface area... before lock up occurs (0 friction)... a larger surface area (larger rotors, larger diameter, larger pads) allows more friction to occur before it is too much (lockup)...
we all know that abs is better for braking... because having the friction of the brakes slowing the car is better than the friction between the tires sliding on the road... so the idea is to keep the brakes at the maximum pressure possible, with maximum friction, without locking up... bigger brakes do that..
im not a scientist... so i couldn't use more specific special terms in my description... but i hope that helps...
06-14-2003, 06:24 AM
#11
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You will find most stock eliminator late model camaros will have drums on the back. They will hold better off the line and they can be backed off.Also you can fit the rear wheel in there better (no caliper clearance problems) Try going to classracer.com and asking for more info on their tech forum.
06-14-2003, 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by JordonMusser
trey-
Drums will have MUCH higher rotating mass
they will stop like ****(tho not a big deal to you)
it won't help your launch
trey-
Drums will have MUCH higher rotating mass
they will stop like ****(tho not a big deal to you)
it won't help your launch
Working on the new dakotas drum brake- it was the size of a bug *** salad bowl. But still lighter than F-150 rotors we have
06-17-2003, 12:12 PM
#14
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Damn, boy, stop using my sig - I'm scrolling through this thread and wondering if I posted in it yet 
I seem to remember that drums were far superior to discs in all but two categories - feel, and modulation. Note that nearly every heavy truck and train still uses drums, but also note that both have terrible problems with locking up wheels under heavy braking (which is why discs are supposedly under consideration for locomotives). Drums have a greater average radius for the swept area, they can be made very light through the proper use of materials, and the servo action of the pads yields excellent application of force to the pads (but this feature is also what makes them difficult to control).
For drag racing, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I don't think you'll see me advocating drums any time soon, though - control is everything.
I seem to remember that drums were far superior to discs in all but two categories - feel, and modulation. Note that nearly every heavy truck and train still uses drums, but also note that both have terrible problems with locking up wheels under heavy braking (which is why discs are supposedly under consideration for locomotives). Drums have a greater average radius for the swept area, they can be made very light through the proper use of materials, and the servo action of the pads yields excellent application of force to the pads (but this feature is also what makes them difficult to control).
For drag racing, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. I don't think you'll see me advocating drums any time soon, though - control is everything.
06-17-2003, 12:25 PM
#15
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Re: Disc to DRUM!? Crazy? Anyone done it? Heres my reasoning!
Originally posted by treyZ28
D. Rotors are heavy man... so are calipers! Thats all rotating mass too!
D. Rotors are heavy man... so are calipers! Thats all rotating mass too!
Joking aside, drums just plain suck IMO. Too heavy, not worth the effort. The rear rotors aren't all that big or heavy (compared to the fronts anyway).. again, my opinion, but I don't see it being of any noticeable help. Of course, you never know until you give it a shot..