Spoke with Bret Bauer tonight about my engine build...

A little history: I originally brought it to a guy in my town to do, but he didn't get it done in time before I left to come up to NY, so I'm having Bret do it for me. All that was done before was bore/hone, and balance. I paid for my rotating assembly through my old machinist, as well as paid him already for the machine "work" he did.

The sheet that comes with the pistons specifies a .002 - .0025" piston-wall clearance. Well as you can see, he went a bit way beyond that...do I have any ground to stand on in getting anything back from him out of his mistake? Because in my opinion, he owes me a core block, or a set of pistons, plus reimbursement for the "work" he did erroneously on it in the first place.

What are your thoughts?

Piston spec sheet:
http://paradox.shacknet.nu/dave88lx/...stonssheet.jpg

What are my options as for getting the previous shop to repay me for their ****up? I've been dicked around since day ONE with this rebuild, I'm getting extremely tired of one thing after another going wrong. (No Bret, you're not dicking me over LOL, I'm glad to have someone that knows what the hell they're doing with this engine ).

I think 4.040" is a bit too much, what do you all think? At least I would have a unique cubic inch...:tard:

I say the guy owes me a new block and reimburse for the machinework he did, but that's just my opinion.

 

Dave,
It is a shame that shops can't do correct work.You will spend more trying to get your money back than it has cost you.
What does Bret say??
If it were me I would put it together and run it.What you say about the piston clearance is true,but any piston knock with .002 extra clearance is not going to sound like a hammer,and it will probably only do it when it is cold.
I have honed block's and put them together with a lot more than .004 and they did OK.I am not trying to say .004 is correct,just saying it will work.
Ask Bret,he knows and follow his advice to the letter, if he is going to build it for you.He knows what he likes to see in a combination as far as clearances.
I have a virgin 4 bolt LT-1 block if you need it,It is rusty,except for the cyl's and brg holes (surface rust).It is a new block that I bought for later use.
Sorry about the bad luck.

 

Sorry to hear the bad news. I think Bret is right that this happens a lot.
I believe this happened to Jordon Musser, I think he mentioned it on his web site.
Thats one of the reasons I took mine to another shop to verify the first shops work. I also bought my own measuring equipment and verified it myself in a engine night class I took before I ordered my pistons and then again after the hone.
One of the guys in class had a bad bore/hone job too.

I think you should call the other shop but you probably won't get far. Hopefully you can sell the pistons. It sounds like you should go with the Diamond pistons and have the block re-honed atleast if you sell your old pistons you're not out as much.

 

The data on the sheet included with the pistons is WRONG/INCORRECT data. Has been for a couple of years, and SRP obviously, at this point in time, has been derelict in not correcting the spec sheets included w/pistons. I'll give ya a hint, the specs are too tight. If ya want to know what you should really run for clearance, for your application, give them a call.

 

Yeah, it sucks, I'm torn on what to do.

Bret wants to run a tighter clearance like SRP reccomends for their piston, in the .002-.0025" range. The piston is made of 4032 "high silicone low expansion" alloy. This leads me to believe, that despite everyone saying "just run it, it will be fine", that the 4032 is designed to be run with a tighter clearance like reccomended in their spec sheet. Since Bret mentioned that Diamond made a .035 overbore piston, I called them up to ask about pistons, and the only option from them is a $725 custom job. He asked what I was doing and I told him, he practically screamed at me to run the piston I had. All he knew was it was an SRP, maybe he assumed it was a 2618 piston, which is spec'd for a looser clearance?

Based on what I'm hearing, I think I could live with the extra clearance, but I've got $10K into parts, and I don't really want to do things "wrong" here...

I could sell these pistons and get some .040" over pistons, or I could get another block and start over...

.040" pistons means getting balanced again.

New block means $300 shipped or so for a block, + hot tank & magnaflux, + bore & hone to get back to the point that I'm at...

I don't know, I'm pretty torn here.

Piston Series Info:
http://paradox.shacknet.nu/dave88lx/...istonspecs.jpg

Bret, I know you read this forum, I trust your advice, just want to see what other opinions are and etc. with this, and which direction to go...

 

Arnie, is that for a 4032 piston, or for a 2618 piston? How much clearance difference between the two do they suggest? I'm going to call SRP tomorrow anyways to ask them...

FWIW I got these pistons about a year ago, been sitting in the box since.

 

Arnie,

The problem with that is every piston company is about the only place that knows the shape of their piston skirts and where they want you to measure the piston to give xxx clearance. I can't say they are wrong, that's like telling Rich he's wrong when he looks at someone who he says "yep he's dead", I don't know about you but if I'm not the engineer who designed the pistons I'm not telling them they are wrong about what clearance that THEIR parts should be run at. Now forged pistons come in high silicon alloy and that has to be taken into account, one reason why we have high HP street motors that take lots of abuse is the alloys we use are better for the applications. Hell high silicon alloy is good for restricted 2bbl stuff since a tighter running clearance will help with ring seal and therefore HP.

The specs are on the tight side, but that's because the heat range most engines see is not really high. A turbo, nitrous, lean, blown, high DCR, etc.... motor will have a higher cylinder temp and cause more expansion to the piston. Hey even the cooling system, the cylinder head manufacture, the blocking being filled or not has something to do with it. Dave's case is pretty straight forward..... 10.5-11.5:1, OEM castings, LT1 cooling etc... it's not going to run REALLY hot, some motors I have in the shop are running the same alloy and should produce much higher temps in their operating range so they will need more clearance than what is on SRP's sheet, but then again it says that on the sheet too.

Bret

 

Bret.....

Your post has words of knowledge. I'm confident that is not just me stating or realizing that. Please understand, I'm 'old school'. If I want to learn information regarding diamonds, I won't seek out, or have a discussion with the guy, that sells me my meat. I learned what I posted, by accident. What I posted, is not me 'talking'. This is after having a discussion with tech/engineering at SRP. What I posted is THEM talking. I'm not brazen, arrogant, or smart (read stupid) enuf to state what I posted on my own. There is enuf inaccurate info, on the net. If the guy (thread originator above) wants to know what clearance he really needs, do what I did, go to the source. Notice I didn't give him a specific clearance recommendation? Stating what I did, came from the horse's head. Without their input, what I stated, would be coming from a horse's as$.

Disclaimer: I have no way of knowing if the voice, on the other end, was yanking on my chain, or for that matter, if they weren't part of the janitorial staff there.

 

That spec sheet says for drag race applications, the clearance should be an extra 0.001 to 0.003", so it sounds like if you told him you're going to race it, the original shop did it right.

Also, in my experience, it's better to run it too loose than to run it too tight. At least you don't have to worry about seizing it if you want to bump up your nitrous or boost later on, as long as you gapped your rings adequately.

-Dave C. '97 Z28

 

I believe those are good points. What's nice about using pistons with construction/material, that allows tighter assembly, is not dealing with cold startup piston noise. Those with a well used, cast piston equipped engine (LTx), understand what I am referring to. This is also the negative of high expansion rate forged offerings. They sound like a diesel, until the engine is fully warmed, yet are installed and operate with the correct/designed running clearance. Bottom line: if these (SRPs) pistons are fit (too ?) loose, but generate no noticeable cold startup 'noise', I believe you'll be ok.
What do they say in racing? Loose is fast? Oh, they were referring to suspension.

 

you should do what I was going to do to the shop that SCREWED me:

throw a real nice molotov cocktail through the shop window after hours. Then watch the fun begin

 

Take the matter to small claims court. If you have a solid case, you will win, and you will get all the money back. The cost of filing the claim, the costs associated with preparing the case, and all the costs associated with their screw up, you can even bill them for your own time.

A muffler shop put headers in my car and did not care to route the wires to avoid touching the headers. One of them burned right through. I got $700 from them. I did not even have to go to court. They got a letter from the judge asking them to contest my charges and take this to court or to pay what i am asking. They were told that if they contest for no good reason, they would face consequences.

It was a bit if work, but WELL worth it. You have to fill out some papers, do a corporate search to get the legal name of the company you want to sue, and talk to "expert witnesses", anybody who has certification and is willing to testify in court that the job was done incorrectly.

Talk to legal aid, and good luck.

 

After reading the responses and the info on SRP's site, my guess is he just didn't read the spec sheet that calls for a tighter clearance on the "high silicon low expansion" 4032 piston, and assumed it was a higher expansion 2618 piston? That's my guess, I dunno?

Latest SRP spec sheet calls out for a .0025" - .0035" clearance:
http://www.jepistons.com/pdf/piston_instrc4032.pdf

So, it'll be a little loose, but tolerable it seems. Hopefully they'll expand enough to quiet down once it heats up!

 

What I failed to include in my previous post was the fact, though SRP fails to include correct info on sheets included with pistons, their website had (and has) been supplying the info/data that their engineers had intended. Even though SRP is a division of JE, they, as does JE, have their own website/info page.

 

all you can do is send a formal request for reimbursement including the date you took it to them, how much they charged you, if you have a copy of the specifications you showed them, another shops or professionals agreement in writing that it is done incorrectly and present that info to them. sometimes a shop owner doesnt actually manage the place also. if you present that to the OWNER he might do something. also, you can threaten to send that info to an attorney or to the better business beareu or any local group like that so that they'll have a record of that shop jacking up. so basically show lots of documentation so that its not just hearsay to the owner and threaten to seek legal action or whatever. you might even go to a "free consultation" for an attorney and get him in writing to state he could sue the pants off of them.