Worrisome info on our cars...
08-07-2003, 07:11 PM
#16
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Soon to be Pensacola
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Originally posted by vz125dude
also is this box in the 98+ v6 camaro's???
also is this box in the 98+ v6 camaro's???
The abilities have been expanded since, but the basic program has been in place from the start.
What is funny is that Vertronix only sells devices to download from select vehicles, and only as early as 1996.
Before that, they don't market the data retriever... why record if nobody's watching? Just a curious note.
Dave
Btw: Camaro, Firebird, and Vette are listed as being downloadable early as 1996.
08-07-2003, 08:41 PM
#17
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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Originally posted by Ken S
Also, the way I view personal data like this is, Its MY personal data of MY life.. If you want to know the statitics of my life, then I should be able to decide to give it to you, even at a cost. Always read the privacy policy for anything you sign up on..
Also, the way I view personal data like this is, Its MY personal data of MY life.. If you want to know the statitics of my life, then I should be able to decide to give it to you, even at a cost. Always read the privacy policy for anything you sign up on..
08-07-2003, 09:01 PM
#18
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 340
Originally posted by Ken S
yea, I made a post about it this before..
I believe its the metal box right under the center console.. I remember seeing it when I did my shifter install and wondering what it is.. Its tied into the airbag sensors too, so not sure if there is a way to disable it without messing up your airbags.
Its always recording what happening till 5 seconds ago when you are driving around... And reading hte other info, it looks like it takes snapshops at times it feels its in "danger"
Originally, it was stated that these devices will only be used for statistical analysis for airbag deployment and safety, and would not be used in court. Okay, fine, I guess thats okay...
Then lo and behold, a way to read this data is released and now its used in court... (this actually happened to some f-bod driver) If that was ever the case, I would make sure my lawyer will fight it to be not used in court. If its not necessary to the operation, or safety of my car, then I don't want it to be watching over me. I do not want to live in a survelliance society, with big brother constantly looking over you.
If there was an easy way to disable it, I would.
The only positive about it I can see is if you are in an accident, and your airbag fails to go off and the datarecorder notes this, you could probably sue for faulty safety equipment..
Oh, and better hope if its used in court against you, that the data is correct.
And its in ALOT of other cars too.
yea, I made a post about it this before..
I believe its the metal box right under the center console.. I remember seeing it when I did my shifter install and wondering what it is.. Its tied into the airbag sensors too, so not sure if there is a way to disable it without messing up your airbags.
Its always recording what happening till 5 seconds ago when you are driving around... And reading hte other info, it looks like it takes snapshops at times it feels its in "danger"
Originally, it was stated that these devices will only be used for statistical analysis for airbag deployment and safety, and would not be used in court. Okay, fine, I guess thats okay...
Then lo and behold, a way to read this data is released and now its used in court... (this actually happened to some f-bod driver) If that was ever the case, I would make sure my lawyer will fight it to be not used in court. If its not necessary to the operation, or safety of my car, then I don't want it to be watching over me. I do not want to live in a survelliance society, with big brother constantly looking over you.
If there was an easy way to disable it, I would.
The only positive about it I can see is if you are in an accident, and your airbag fails to go off and the datarecorder notes this, you could probably sue for faulty safety equipment..
Oh, and better hope if its used in court against you, that the data is correct.
And its in ALOT of other cars too.
vz125dude - when you go to replace your steering wheel like you said, could you do us all a favor and play around with the airbags and and check out this box. For those of us who want to retain our airbags it would be a huge relief to have this thing disabled. Thx
08-07-2003, 09:22 PM
#19
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Pgh, PA
Posts: 2,628
Has the thought come to mind that, that is all they TELL YOU it records? For all we know there could be some kind of hard drive located somewhere on the car in a remote place , or **** even in the PCM that logs all that **** and more when the MAP sensor picks up the car is under load ( Accelerating ) Or when the ABS kicks on , it might log and SAVE it all ... There details are so vague that anything could be going on ...
go out and pop the hood on your F-Body ... See that mess of wires ? If the computer can take information from all that **** at god knows how many intervals per second, who is to say that it isnt saving it somewhere , or transmitting it somehow to somewhere else on a main computer ... Cell phones have been around since then so who is to say that htis crap isnt sent to GM ... I think its Bull **** , but i have no intentions of losing my airbags jsut to remove it , id rather live in a wreck and have to pay fines loose my liscence then die cause i tinkered with my black box ...
go out and pop the hood on your F-Body ... See that mess of wires ? If the computer can take information from all that **** at god knows how many intervals per second, who is to say that it isnt saving it somewhere , or transmitting it somehow to somewhere else on a main computer ... Cell phones have been around since then so who is to say that htis crap isnt sent to GM ... I think its Bull **** , but i have no intentions of losing my airbags jsut to remove it , id rather live in a wreck and have to pay fines loose my liscence then die cause i tinkered with my black box ...
08-07-2003, 09:29 PM
#20
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Charlotte,NC
Posts: 129
i wont take my airbags out and replace the steering wheal until i get my new camaro this coming spring. and yea i dont recomend taking out your airbags unless you are gonna upgrade to some sort of safety harness...but when i get my new camaro, this black box **** is not staying in there....
08-08-2003, 08:50 AM
#21
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Danville, VA (VIR)
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Where would the data port be located for the cops to plug into?
How about trying to disfugure the connector to where the interface can't be plugged in and read easily by the police... Just a thought.
How about trying to disfugure the connector to where the interface can't be plugged in and read easily by the police... Just a thought.
08-08-2003, 10:39 AM
#22
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 165
Theres some good info in this thread. Just think of what a system like this coupled with an OnStar or GPS system could do!!!
Just the exact reason why I would never buy a car with either of those features, of course Im sure one day, systems like that will be built into cars without us knowing it.
Just think about it, any where you go, your GPS system figures out what the speed limit of the road you are on is, and then transmits a signal to a satellite indicating your speed, and then if youre going faster than that speed on the road you are on, a signal is sent to the local law enforcement and a police officer is dispatched to pull you over, or even worse, a ticket and court summons is automatically sent to your house!
Just the exact reason why I would never buy a car with either of those features, of course Im sure one day, systems like that will be built into cars without us knowing it.
Just think about it, any where you go, your GPS system figures out what the speed limit of the road you are on is, and then transmits a signal to a satellite indicating your speed, and then if youre going faster than that speed on the road you are on, a signal is sent to the local law enforcement and a police officer is dispatched to pull you over, or even worse, a ticket and court summons is automatically sent to your house!
08-08-2003, 11:10 AM
#23
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: portland, OR
Posts: 330
wow, you guys are way too paranoid. a few of you been reading "1984" lately? this black box is hardly an invasion of privacy. everyone's just speculating that it will be used to give innocent motorists (us?) tickets for no good reason. if that's not the biggest load of crap...
this thread is getting ridiculous...
this thread is getting ridiculous...
08-08-2003, 11:54 AM
#24
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Auburn, California
Posts: 614
I agree. I don't think these things are going to make much difference in a crash. The cop probably won't even know this thing exists on our cars. As for the "permanent" records, if something shows up thats considered "street racing", you can just say that it was at the track, how would they know. Of course if it's a top speed run they you are on your own. I doubt they can use previous recorded driving data to help convict you.
I wonder if pulling the battery cable or one of the fuses will disable or clear it
I wonder if pulling the battery cable or one of the fuses will disable or clear it
08-08-2003, 12:10 PM
#25
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Location: Mass
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I agree it is an invasion of privacey. And i believe "1984" will occure if we dont stand up to this type of crap. What good does it serve? Nothing. I would wrather have no airbags then have to deal with big brother. But if i was to crash and i was still alive, or not hurt and it was my fault i would just rip the ECM and everything else out of my car before the cops could come.
But i bet what most of you predicted is true about us getting mailed tickets and crap from GPS and all that. I mean look how far we have come in that crap since 1980? I mean back then the ECM just controlled the timeing and air flow etc. Now it does all that and more. Technology is advanceing more and more. I mean **** GPS wasnt around until the early to mid 90s, now we have it in our cars, less then 10 years later. I am not a big fan of the ACLU but i will support them on this one.
But i bet what most of you predicted is true about us getting mailed tickets and crap from GPS and all that. I mean look how far we have come in that crap since 1980? I mean back then the ECM just controlled the timeing and air flow etc. Now it does all that and more. Technology is advanceing more and more. I mean **** GPS wasnt around until the early to mid 90s, now we have it in our cars, less then 10 years later. I am not a big fan of the ACLU but i will support them on this one.
08-08-2003, 12:12 PM
#26
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Paranoia is what insures a species' survival.
What happens when?:
*...You go to trade a car in. The dealer looks up the info along with info stored on your PCM. The dealer devalues your trade from what he sees. After you have been screwed out of a little more dough by the dealer, he pulls the car out back to be washed, the minimum wage wash boy is instructed to cycle the ignition 250 times, reset the PCM, and detail the car. Now it is set on the lot for pristine retail value. Even potential buyers with a retreival device would find nothing. The only angle a dealer would make more money off of would be rolling back the miles.
*...Your insurance agent gets a retrieval unit and wants to read the records whenever you renew or revise your policy. They might even require the occaissional surprise check at the agent's descretion.
*...In a few years the box transmits the info real time, rolled up into the whole OnStar, GPS, PCM, and black box working as a unit. You exceed the speed limit, the car shuts down and waits for an officer to come ticket you and reset the system before you can get on your way.
*...You lose your licence and/or insurance due to something recorded. These items would then be public record and you would never be able to drive again legally, even if the 'indescresion' in question never hurt anyone and there were no witnesses other than the box.
*...You are denied warranty or insurance coverage because someone doesn't like what is recorded... Not because it hurt anyone or caused a problem, just because. (this has happened already)
Some of this is happening now, some seems far fetched, but it is all in the cards. Paranoid or not, the writing is on the wall.
1984 is coming, gone, and here all at the same time.
Dave
What happens when?:
*...You go to trade a car in. The dealer looks up the info along with info stored on your PCM. The dealer devalues your trade from what he sees. After you have been screwed out of a little more dough by the dealer, he pulls the car out back to be washed, the minimum wage wash boy is instructed to cycle the ignition 250 times, reset the PCM, and detail the car. Now it is set on the lot for pristine retail value. Even potential buyers with a retreival device would find nothing. The only angle a dealer would make more money off of would be rolling back the miles.
*...Your insurance agent gets a retrieval unit and wants to read the records whenever you renew or revise your policy. They might even require the occaissional surprise check at the agent's descretion.
*...In a few years the box transmits the info real time, rolled up into the whole OnStar, GPS, PCM, and black box working as a unit. You exceed the speed limit, the car shuts down and waits for an officer to come ticket you and reset the system before you can get on your way.
*...You lose your licence and/or insurance due to something recorded. These items would then be public record and you would never be able to drive again legally, even if the 'indescresion' in question never hurt anyone and there were no witnesses other than the box.
*...You are denied warranty or insurance coverage because someone doesn't like what is recorded... Not because it hurt anyone or caused a problem, just because. (this has happened already)
Some of this is happening now, some seems far fetched, but it is all in the cards. Paranoid or not, the writing is on the wall.
1984 is coming, gone, and here all at the same time.
Dave
08-08-2003, 12:35 PM
#27
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: the killing fields
Posts: 55
Sounds like an urban legend...
A little paranoia never hurt anyone. I have never personally heard of any case where a body got a ticket from a trooper being able to pull information from a box on their vehicle. I think that could be considered illegal search and seizure. maybe depending on the local laws... I know that here in Illinois, radar detectors are legal to own because radar is not admissable evidence in court. The only problem I can see with pulling out the box is that they could turn that against you as well... you know, what've you got to hide? If you pull the box out they'll assume you do stupid sh*t all the time, and be even more suspicious. I'll wait until I actually read about or see the box used against somebody before I get too upset by it.
I have never personally heard of any case where a body got a ticket from a trooper being able to pull information from a box on their vehicle. I think that could be considered illegal search and seizure. maybe depending on the local laws... I know that here in Illinois, radar detectors are legal to own because radar is not admissable evidence in court. The only problem I can see with pulling out the box is that they could turn that against you as well... you know, what've you got to hide? If you pull the box out they'll assume you do stupid sh*t all the time, and be even more suspicious. I'll wait until I actually read about or see the box used against somebody before I get too upset by it.
08-09-2003, 06:16 AM
#28
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Hawesville Ky
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paranoia..yep..first of all if youre woried about your recorded race actions being used against you..which they wont.and cant be..save all youre time slips..and dyno sheets..theyre dated and time stamped..sencond of all..when their is a bad accident and it has to be recontructed..the reconstrucionist will be able to figure out exactly what happened for the most part without your "black box"..and any thing that you have done prier to that event, wont even be considered..If you kill some one and it goes so far as that htey need to get information on what happened from tour computer..they can only use any information that applies to the incident..like was mentioned before...anything else wouldnt even rate a "circumstnatial evidence " label..to many variableds to consider..BUTTT!!!!if you do something ignorant and kill somebody..you can bet your buttt that it will be used against you...:Just the stuff about the wreck ..in civil court...ie..lawsuit from victims family.....
P.S.I like to drive my car a little hard now and again..but remember..driving is a privilage..not a right...It is meant to be asafe and efficient mode of transportation..consider others safety..and dont forget htat your car is a machine..and can fail at the least expected times...could be bad deal if your going 100 mph down a city street or a freeway..and not just for you..
P.S.I like to drive my car a little hard now and again..but remember..driving is a privilage..not a right...It is meant to be asafe and efficient mode of transportation..consider others safety..and dont forget htat your car is a machine..and can fail at the least expected times...could be bad deal if your going 100 mph down a city street or a freeway..and not just for you..
08-09-2003, 10:27 AM
#29
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Location: Mass...college in Columbia,SC
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08-09-2003, 01:19 PM
#30
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 128
WHY do people start posts like this?
That data recorder is a CYA for GM. Do you realize how many times GM is sued in one day?? That box is there to record if there was a near air bag deployment event. If GM is sued because the driver feels the air bag should have deployed GM has this information to say that it should not have deployed. If it becomes a habit that people are bing injured in a car that the air bag indeed should have been deployed, then the air bag inflation rate will be tuned more aggresively.
As for paranoia? Who is so arrogant that they feel they are important enough that anyone cares what they are doing with their car??
Sorry, just get irritated when people jump to conclusions. Like when people post service bullitins and say they've discovered something new that goes wrong with all F-bodies?!?
Brian
That data recorder is a CYA for GM. Do you realize how many times GM is sued in one day?? That box is there to record if there was a near air bag deployment event. If GM is sued because the driver feels the air bag should have deployed GM has this information to say that it should not have deployed. If it becomes a habit that people are bing injured in a car that the air bag indeed should have been deployed, then the air bag inflation rate will be tuned more aggresively.
As for paranoia? Who is so arrogant that they feel they are important enough that anyone cares what they are doing with their car??
Sorry, just get irritated when people jump to conclusions. Like when people post service bullitins and say they've discovered something new that goes wrong with all F-bodies?!?
Brian