Worrisome info on our cars...
08-07-2003, 02:32 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Soon to be Pensacola
Posts: 511
Worrisome info on our cars...
I posted a question on another LS1 site about the data recorders in our cars.
http://www.ls1tech.com/threads/show...b=5&o=7&fpart=1
The immediate response was "Don't worry about the recorder, it only records things 5 seconds before an accident".
That got me wondering...
How can the car start recording 5 seconds before a crash?
Can it see into the future?
So I did some looking. The following is a cut/paste of my last post in that thread. Sorry so long, but it was eye opening...
FWIW,
I did a little research on the box...
Some facts that I have learned:
*Our cars have had them since 1990.
*Each year gets a little more 'intrusive' with it's record keeping.
*The LS1 cars record functions continually.
*The memory loop is short, the new data is constantly over-writing over the old.
*Since the LS1 intro in 97 to date, GM uses a loop capable of 5 seconds minimum.
*There are 2 events that cause the box to store records long term:
1)A "near deployment" event... A pre-programmed indicator that an airbag deployment might be imminent. This one is scary! I have searched for the specifics on what actions might cause the computer to believe an accident might be about to happen, but cannot find details. This is very vague. For all we know, the computer might be programmed to believe that speeds over 80 mph, for example, mean that a deployment is imminent so these events all get logged. All near deployment records are kept for 250 cycles of the ignition. Records are kept in the air bag module and do not erase with power loss or computer reset.
2)An airbag deployment. The memory in the airbag module recalls and permanantly imprints the last loop of memory available until the time the air bag deploys. This is permanant and non-removable. The near deployment records from the last 250 times you started the car are also permanantly imbedded in memory (just for statisics according to GM).
*Once memory becomes imbedded rather than just stored, the box will no longer work. It must be replaced with a new one.
*Some specific records kept (Info from Vertronix, the computer firm that programs GM and Ford black boxes. Vertronix is also currently selling the law enforment community a hardware/software link so that troopers can pull the readings.):
Vehicle speed (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
Engine speed (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
Brake status (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
Throttle position (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
State of driver's seat belt switch (On/Off)
Passenger's airbag enabled or disabled state (On/Off)
SIR Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
Time from vehicle impact to airbag deployment
Ignition cycle count at event time
Ignition cycle count at investigation
Maximum DV for near-deployment events
DV vs. time for frontal airbag deployment event
Time from vehicle impact to time of maximum DV
Time between near-deployment events and deployment event
Vertronix notes that the above list of recorded values is the GM and Ford basic program. Other, and/or more detailed records are acknowledged to be possible depending on make/model. This list is the minimum.
What is included in the Vertronix reading kit for LEOs:
Data Retrieval Module
Windows® 95/98/ME/NT/2000 based Software (CD) (includes Help Files/Manual)
Vehicle Interface Cable
PC Interface Cable
Module Interface Cables (3)
6' Extension Cable
Cigarette Lighter Power Cable
AC/DC 12V Power Supply
Storage Case for entire kit
Sorry so long...
What scares me is the lack of details.
Anyone can say "it records the last 5 seconds before a crash" and be telling the truth. So you figure that's nothing... What is left out is that the records are constantly looping and that a sub-set of records are kept as near misses. No one seems to know what constitutes the near miss either. These records are also downplayed and convienently left out of the "5 seconds" statement because they are technically not permanant records. The lesser records are only kept for 250 starts of the car so they don't seem to count.
Once Vertronix gets these units widespread in LEO cars, there will be a thirst for more and more records to be kept within the car for them to look at. All in the name of statistics of course .
Just some things to consider...
Dave
http://www.ls1tech.com/threads/show...b=5&o=7&fpart=1
The immediate response was "Don't worry about the recorder, it only records things 5 seconds before an accident".
That got me wondering...
How can the car start recording 5 seconds before a crash?
Can it see into the future?
So I did some looking. The following is a cut/paste of my last post in that thread. Sorry so long, but it was eye opening...
FWIW,
I did a little research on the box...
Some facts that I have learned:
*Our cars have had them since 1990.
*Each year gets a little more 'intrusive' with it's record keeping.
*The LS1 cars record functions continually.
*The memory loop is short, the new data is constantly over-writing over the old.
*Since the LS1 intro in 97 to date, GM uses a loop capable of 5 seconds minimum.
*There are 2 events that cause the box to store records long term:
1)A "near deployment" event... A pre-programmed indicator that an airbag deployment might be imminent. This one is scary! I have searched for the specifics on what actions might cause the computer to believe an accident might be about to happen, but cannot find details. This is very vague. For all we know, the computer might be programmed to believe that speeds over 80 mph, for example, mean that a deployment is imminent so these events all get logged. All near deployment records are kept for 250 cycles of the ignition. Records are kept in the air bag module and do not erase with power loss or computer reset.
2)An airbag deployment. The memory in the airbag module recalls and permanantly imprints the last loop of memory available until the time the air bag deploys. This is permanant and non-removable. The near deployment records from the last 250 times you started the car are also permanantly imbedded in memory (just for statisics according to GM).
*Once memory becomes imbedded rather than just stored, the box will no longer work. It must be replaced with a new one.
*Some specific records kept (Info from Vertronix, the computer firm that programs GM and Ford black boxes. Vertronix is also currently selling the law enforment community a hardware/software link so that troopers can pull the readings.):
Vehicle speed (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
Engine speed (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
Brake status (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
Throttle position (minimum 5 seconds before impact)
State of driver's seat belt switch (On/Off)
Passenger's airbag enabled or disabled state (On/Off)
SIR Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
Time from vehicle impact to airbag deployment
Ignition cycle count at event time
Ignition cycle count at investigation
Maximum DV for near-deployment events
DV vs. time for frontal airbag deployment event
Time from vehicle impact to time of maximum DV
Time between near-deployment events and deployment event
Vertronix notes that the above list of recorded values is the GM and Ford basic program. Other, and/or more detailed records are acknowledged to be possible depending on make/model. This list is the minimum.
What is included in the Vertronix reading kit for LEOs:
Data Retrieval Module
Windows® 95/98/ME/NT/2000 based Software (CD) (includes Help Files/Manual)
Vehicle Interface Cable
PC Interface Cable
Module Interface Cables (3)
6' Extension Cable
Cigarette Lighter Power Cable
AC/DC 12V Power Supply
Storage Case for entire kit
Sorry so long...
What scares me is the lack of details.
Anyone can say "it records the last 5 seconds before a crash" and be telling the truth. So you figure that's nothing... What is left out is that the records are constantly looping and that a sub-set of records are kept as near misses. No one seems to know what constitutes the near miss either. These records are also downplayed and convienently left out of the "5 seconds" statement because they are technically not permanant records. The lesser records are only kept for 250 starts of the car so they don't seem to count.
Once Vertronix gets these units widespread in LEO cars, there will be a thirst for more and more records to be kept within the car for them to look at. All in the name of statistics of course .
Just some things to consider...
Dave
08-07-2003, 05:09 PM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OR
Posts: 2,368
yea, I made a post about it this before..
I believe its the metal box right under the center console.. I remember seeing it when I did my shifter install and wondering what it is.. Its tied into the airbag sensors too, so not sure if there is a way to disable it without messing up your airbags.
Its always recording what happening till 5 seconds ago when you are driving around... And reading hte other info, it looks like it takes snapshops at times it feels its in "danger"
Originally, it was stated that these devices will only be used for statistical analysis for airbag deployment and safety, and would not be used in court. Okay, fine, I guess thats okay...
Then lo and behold, a way to read this data is released and now its used in court... (this actually happened to some f-bod driver) If that was ever the case, I would make sure my lawyer will fight it to be not used in court. If its not necessary to the operation, or safety of my car, then I don't want it to be watching over me. I do not want to live in a survelliance society, with big brother constantly looking over you.
If there was an easy way to disable it, I would.
The only positive about it I can see is if you are in an accident, and your airbag fails to go off and the datarecorder notes this, you could probably sue for faulty safety equipment..
Oh, and better hope if its used in court against you, that the data is correct.
And its in ALOT of other cars too.
I believe its the metal box right under the center console.. I remember seeing it when I did my shifter install and wondering what it is.. Its tied into the airbag sensors too, so not sure if there is a way to disable it without messing up your airbags.
Its always recording what happening till 5 seconds ago when you are driving around... And reading hte other info, it looks like it takes snapshops at times it feels its in "danger"
Originally, it was stated that these devices will only be used for statistical analysis for airbag deployment and safety, and would not be used in court. Okay, fine, I guess thats okay...
Then lo and behold, a way to read this data is released and now its used in court... (this actually happened to some f-bod driver) If that was ever the case, I would make sure my lawyer will fight it to be not used in court. If its not necessary to the operation, or safety of my car, then I don't want it to be watching over me. I do not want to live in a survelliance society, with big brother constantly looking over you.
If there was an easy way to disable it, I would.
The only positive about it I can see is if you are in an accident, and your airbag fails to go off and the datarecorder notes this, you could probably sue for faulty safety equipment..
Oh, and better hope if its used in court against you, that the data is correct.
And its in ALOT of other cars too.
Last edited by Ken S; 08-07-2003 at 05:12 PM.
08-07-2003, 05:36 PM
#4
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 218
Originally posted by Ryuhei
How about this: don't do stupid stuff that may warrant the "black box" info being used againat you?
How about this: don't do stupid stuff that may warrant the "black box" info being used againat you?
Yea well a near event could be recorded by auto x ing or drag racing at the track... and they may try using that against you as a pattern?
Eric
08-07-2003, 05:50 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 158
I'm not too worried about it. If it overwrites every 5 seconds, a day @ the track shouldn't hurt anything. I'm just glad our cars don't have OnStar. That's REALLY scary. I heard OBDIII will be worse than anything so far!
08-07-2003, 05:56 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OR
Posts: 2,368
Its the beginning of a surveillance society..
Put some wireless networking capability on these things and better processor and memory, and whala, you now have active surveillance.. The second you go 5 mph above the speed limit, or perhaps step on the gas a little too hard and get tagged for careless/reckless driving, you'll be automatically mailed a ticket...
or even better, just limit the car's ability so you can't go over the speedlimit at all, and only accelerate at defined rates.. And if the cops want to pull you over, they can hit a button and disable your car.. its not too hard to do... and the scary thing is, there's a interest to set it up.
Also, the way I view personal data like this is, Its MY personal data of MY life.. If you want to know the statitics of my life, then I should be able to decide to give it to you, even at a cost. Always read the privacy policy for anything you sign up on..
Put some wireless networking capability on these things and better processor and memory, and whala, you now have active surveillance.. The second you go 5 mph above the speed limit, or perhaps step on the gas a little too hard and get tagged for careless/reckless driving, you'll be automatically mailed a ticket...
or even better, just limit the car's ability so you can't go over the speedlimit at all, and only accelerate at defined rates.. And if the cops want to pull you over, they can hit a button and disable your car.. its not too hard to do... and the scary thing is, there's a interest to set it up.
Also, the way I view personal data like this is, Its MY personal data of MY life.. If you want to know the statitics of my life, then I should be able to decide to give it to you, even at a cost. Always read the privacy policy for anything you sign up on..
08-07-2003, 05:58 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: OR
Posts: 2,368
you forgot:
"What is left out is that the records are constantly looping and that a sub-set of records are kept as near misses"
I bet hitting the brakes after the quater mile diong 100 mph to make the first turnoff will count as a near miss..
"What is left out is that the records are constantly looping and that a sub-set of records are kept as near misses"
I bet hitting the brakes after the quater mile diong 100 mph to make the first turnoff will count as a near miss..
Originally posted by Ryuhei
I'm not too worried about it. If it overwrites every 5 seconds, a day @ the track shouldn't hurt anything. I'm just glad our cars don't have OnStar. That's REALLY scary. I heard OBDIII will be worse than anything so far!
I'm not too worried about it. If it overwrites every 5 seconds, a day @ the track shouldn't hurt anything. I'm just glad our cars don't have OnStar. That's REALLY scary. I heard OBDIII will be worse than anything so far!
08-07-2003, 06:09 PM
#8
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Soon to be Pensacola
Posts: 511
Originally posted by Ryuhei:
...If it overwrites every 5 seconds, a day @ the track shouldn't hurt anything...
...If it overwrites every 5 seconds, a day @ the track shouldn't hurt anything...
It overwrites every 5 seconds as long as your driving is what it considers safe...
It records when one or more parameters reach a point that the computer has been told is unsafe.
Those unsafe readings are what we are not being told...
It seems reasonable to think that a day at the track, full of spirited driving, would involve at least one action that would cause a "near miss" record to be made.
Once recorded, it will be on the module until you have restarted the car 250 times! Not overwritten...
So 200 days later, you wreck... it's not your fault, but the computer shows you repeatedly accellerating from 0-112 mph in 12.5 seconds, then slowing rapidly... Not saying a word about you being at the track... you will look like a maniac. Guilty.
How about a dyno? I don't have a doubt in my mind that the computer is programmed to feel a wreck is immenent when your car clocks near 150 mph... So you put it on a dyno, how does big brother know that when he sees records of 2 back to back rapid accels from 50 to 150 mph in forth gear? That doesn't look like legal drag racing or crossing. It looks like you took an E-ticket cruise on your local interstate.
Dave
08-07-2003, 06:45 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Petaluma, CA
Posts: 201
With just about everything we do now someone is watching whether you know it or not. It's b.s. If I was to get into an accident & had time, I would rip the damn thing out & tell the cops to go f**k themselves if they wanted to know where it was. I am so not ok with these people who think it's ok to do this. We are supposed to be a free country but they are taking it away one peice at a time. As long as we have people who fight against it we'll be ok, it's when people bow down & don't fight that it gets scary!
08-07-2003, 06:45 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 6
Wow, what a paranoid society! You guys are gonna have ulcers at 25 if you worry about crap like this. The only reason to worry about the recorder is if YOUR AT FAULT in an accident! The data recorded is used to re-create an accident scene and hopefully keep our insurance rates lower in the long run!
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
08-07-2003, 06:57 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Charlotte,NC
Posts: 129
why not just take it out along with airbags? im gonna take my steering wheel to replace it with a lightweight racing one. airbag is not needed when wearing a seatbelt expecially a 4 or 5 point racing harness, which will also be put in mine. this is the first time i have heard about this box, and i dont like it at all! im getting a new camaro next spring and thats one of the first things to go out of it.....f*** these people who think they can control our lives...
08-07-2003, 06:58 PM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Soon to be Pensacola
Posts: 511
Originally posted by DecadentZ:
...Correct me if I'm wrong.
...Correct me if I'm wrong.
You're corrected.
Seriously though...
You don't see anything wrong with the car holding records of your driving habits for 250 engine starts? All records taken out of context? All in plain view to testify against you, regardless of your fault or not. It only records bad things that you, a PO, or another person do behind the wheel of your car. It doesn't record the context or record previous good deeds in your favor.
The current tech is not exactly terrible, the scary part is that this is just the begining.