hehe I got mine for $32,500 (full options).... after it was priced at 36,900. I've seen the yellow collector firebirds on some lots asking $49,000 ($10,000 dealer mark up WTF) can you say Z06

 

Whoa!!! I think they were listed around ~$45,000 Canadian $$$'s?! That's nuts! Up here, the prices are always a few grand more than US prices (my Z28 was $38,000 with all the options) but that's bad when it costs even more in US$ than CDN$?!

 

Just had my 2002 Formula dynoed a couple weeks ago. Car is bone stock with the exception of a cat-back and subframes. Dynoed 305 rwhp and 322 rwtq. Some say drivetrain loss on an A4 is about 20%, so thats about 365 bhp. A lot better than the GM claimed 310 for my car. BTW the car only has 2500 miles. Now I just need to get to a track this spring, and confirm with some high 13s timeslips.
Regards,

 

i have always heard that the fbodies are rated at the wheels from the factory while the vette is rated at the flywheel. Why b/c they can and it makes the vette look more powerfull. I dynoed more than my freinds 01 vette a4 with corsa.

 

Sorry chevy qc, you have to take into consideration that the HP was @ the Flywheel HP and Not RWHP... Plus add the fact that the F-Bodys were I am taking a guess around 1000 + pounds heavier then say a 93 - 2002... Something about having Steal and not the thin metal and platic that out cars are made with now... Plus when GM did release it, they told the insurance companies that it made 290 HP more or less and actually when they produce around 390 HP more or less... Plus I have read that those cars were running somewhere between 13 - 14 seconds and maybe even less depending on the driver... All that for a fairly heavy car... Not too shabby in my opinion.. Plus what is sweet is that the 302 was not used but 3 years....

 

the 302 was rated gross hp and them are the numbers i'm referring to. if you think a 60's camaro was 4300 or so pounds you'd better be selling what your smoking. the 60's camaro's were among the lightest camaro's. remember, very little noise insulation, no extra metal for crash zone's, very little interior comparing, no standard a/c, etc. the new car is as heavy easily as a 69 z/28. i'm more than well aware of how the ratings went and it wasn't an insurance reason. anyone that owns one will tell you, they sure aren't fast stock. as for what you read, no 60's z/28 went 13's stock. try a bit more research, only one of us apparently is new to this and it's not me.

 

A) I agree that 1st-gen Camaros were no heavier than 4th-gen's..........they were "roughly" 3200 - 3400 lbs I believe, compared to about 3400 - 3600 lbs for most 4th-gens?

B) I can't say "exactly" what a '69 Z/28 would run in the 1/4 mile, but I know my dad's '69 SS 350 (4-speed, 2.73's) ran low 14's when it was stock, and he said that Z/28's (w/302's) would just out pull him, so they probably could hit into the 13's with a good driver and all conditions being good. When my dad built a better 350 for his car though, he was running 12.9's to 13.1's pretty consistently, and beating stock Z/28's too. He just needed better gears and his car probably would have run mid-12's or better?! (but then he met my mom, got married, sold the SS...........................gee, thanks mom!!!).

 

i don't believe the 350ss camaro 4 speed car was available with the 2.73 although i can check the records once i get to my files. as i recall it was 3.31 being the lowest numerical gear for that combo. the 300hp 350 would likely beat the z28 pretty handily and usually does at the muscle car drags. the z28 was pretty quick from a roll to about 100 considering, but anyone that owns a true stock one that has raced it will tell you, it's no fire breather.

 

Well sorry for being wrong but as history has proven to be that older cars from the 60's and early 70's weighed more then any of the newer cars because they used heavy guaged steel compared to most new cars and even the aftermarket body replacement panels are not even the same guage steel as the older cars... But alas, since i don't own an older camaro, I was just going off of basis that most older cars do out weigh newer cars...

Well I will just say this, I am not going to contest what you are saying but this is what I have heard... Show me some dyno results and then I will say you are right but untill then, that is what I have heard and read about.... Too me I would not use a 327 w/ a 283 crank to make the 302 for my personal tastes.. I was just adding that because 1st gen Camaros are cool but I do have to say that I preferred the look of 1st Gen Firebirds over Camaros but that is another story... I have never even driven a 69 Camaro Z28 w/ 302 but I am just going off what I have heard but oh well no big deal... I am not new to cars and trucks but I have built numerous small blocks... I do have a question for you chevy qc, maybe you can answer, Which heads are better Vortec Iron Heads or 462 Casting Fuelie Heads w/ 2.02 Valves and 64cc combustion chamber ?? I have even asked a few techs over at local dealership and they always tell me that Vortec heads are better then most Castings but it seems that a lot of people that are building Race engines do Love these Fuelie heads.. I am trying to decide if I want to upgrade heads on my 68 C10 project and no GM did not use the 350 Small Block in the trucks untill 69....

 

All I'm going on is what my dad told me from back in his day in the early/mid 70's. His '69 SS had a 350, 4-speed, and according to him "very high gears", which he believes were 2.73's (although who knows, maybe his memory has failed or something?!). He said that the car would pull upto ~140 mph, so I don't know if gears any lower than 2.73's would do that with a 4-speed? Also, he said that when his car was stock, and Z/28's were stock, the Z's would out pull his car, but maybe that was on the highway vs. at the drags? I guess that would make sense considering the 302 is more of a high revving engine, and maybe not designed for "torque" or 1/4 mile performance?!

 

Yeah, gross rating was a crock of BS. Lets pull the water pump, air filter, alternator, and see what it'll do. I've heard the 390 claim too, but now I see even that a ZL1 427 big block was only doing 375 real HP at the crank.

Massage the cars and they can be monsters, but the reality is, exaust and accessories drag them down. Its the "when I was a boy" syndrome, "back in the day Camaros had 400 HP son!" The reality, is no, unfortunately they didn't.

 

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

The truth behind the ZL1

 

the 50th anniv. will be worth a hell of a lot more than a Z06 in the future though...i wouldn't buy a 50th Anniv. to drive a whole lot, it's more of a collector

 

Thanks for Reminding me about what the whole BS was Gross Rating.. I totally forgot that even to this day some companies will strip every accessory down just to make claim that their engines had XXX numbers for HP... Yeah that is prolly what they did to get the HP numbers around 390... but now I see the error that I overlooked...

The ZL1 was a great engine but from what I have read in an issue of Super Chevy a couple of years back, that GM is or was supposed to be re releasing the ZL 1... This time around they are supposed to be releasing it with Higher HP numbers... This has yet to be seen...

Well like you said it was probably when I read and heard (even on Car and Driver TV) they showed a 69 Camaro Z28 w/ 4 speed, and they also mentioned the 390 reference but again, that has to be BS according to that site, where they even pulled all accessories out and even took off the chambered exhaust systems off just to make 523.6 HP... Damn what companies won't do just to gross rate their engines...

Thanks again for pointing that part out since I totally overlooked that fact... Well the only way I would see in making 400 + HP would be to build up a stroker w/ 11 - 12 CR, Pair of Edelbrock Etec 200 heads, Comp Cams Custom Grind Roller Cam, Edelbrock RPM Airgap Intake, with either Qjet Carb or Edelbrock/Carter 750 4bbl Carb... That will be close to getting 400 + HP w/ all accessories and exhaust... Maybe more but then after building that and getting it broke in, then I would have whatever I would put that engine into Dynoed to get Some realistic numbers... To back it up... Again, I agree with you, that Gross HP is BS...

Charlie

 

There is an aluminum, ZL1 remake block available, only 5 grand last I checked.