TSP magic stick 3?
 

i want to put a cam, upgraded pushrods, springs, and lifters in my ls1 for a little more power, and my buddy keeps bugging me to get a tsp magic stick 3. I dont want to lose too much streetability, and i dont want to worry about my car burning out and going sideways everytime i need to hop into traffic quickly or pay a fortune for gas all the time. Id like to be able to keep 20 something mpg on the highway and decent city mileage. I drive the car every year to illinois so it has to be road trip friendly as well. Is this a good cam for me. My mods so far are: airbox lid, ls6 intake, granetelli motorsports maf sensor, slp LM2 catback exhaust, pace setter headers and an offroad Ypipe. ill probably also add a 3-3600 stall in the future. What do you think. I would like to see 400 plus on a dyno and under 12s at the track.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

At 237/242 duration @ .050", it's much too big for a stock 346ci IMO. It's a track cam or something with more displacement. Daily driving is going to be ridiculous and it won't make good power until high up in the RPM range.

If you're into the Texas-Speed cams, I'd suggest the Torquer cams over the MS cams.

I had great luck in the past with the Futral Motorsports Cams.

With an LS1, any cam in the low 230s @ .600 lift is going to make tons of power and be very driveable.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

BTW, you'll also want to upgrade the oil pump and timing chain set if you're upgrading the camshaft -- also a converter and gears immediately.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

which lsa should i get if i wanted to stay on the economic side. what kind of gas mileage should i expect out of this setup?

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

you are going to need a converter and gears before or at the same time unless you go with a much smaller cam. a freind of mine used to have an ms3 cam and it was deffinatley alot of cam and his was a 6 speed. if you are concerned with driveability al mpg look at much smaller cams

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

a buddy of mine has TSP's 233/239 and a 6 speed on a stock displacement motor and in my opinion it's about the largest i would want to go on something that you want to drive on the street on a regular basis.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...d=168&catid=44

so this one with a torque converter that stalls in the 2000-3500s somewhere would still be a good combo? I want the stall to take place as close to the lower end of the cams powerband as possible, right?

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

That cam will get the job done.

Torque converter set at around 200-300 rpm below peak torque.

That's around 3800 RPM on a STOCK LS1, so....... a little more than that with a cam setup... remember... LS1s are detuned race motors --- not your run-of-the-mill iron block Gen II 350.

I wouldn't go any lower than a 3600 stall on ANY LS1 car or you'll be leaving lots on the table.......

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

For the torque converter you should be going with a bare minimum of 3600 with a 3.23 gearset. It will work but you'll likely regret it in the future. 4000rpm with 3.73 gears will probably work best, and is what I recommend. Forget about about city fuel milage, it will be horrible. Highway milage should still be decent though, just keep that converter locked.

That cam will work great with a good converter. Big cams don't behave well in many 6 speed cars. They're soft down low, 6th gear can be useless, they buck hard at low rpm, and they're hard to launch. The superior automatic transmission addresses all those issues, and makes most of that bad behavior disappear.

If you want to keep the stock gears and run a smaller converter, go with a smaller cam.

If you're worried about fuel milage and tire spin, you've got the wrong car. Buy a Prius.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

:lol:

That's just it. You can't go with a smaller converter. The way the LS1 makes power, you need a 3600 on a factory car.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

how does this look
oil pump
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...d=151&catid=55
timing chain
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...d=159&catid=53
converter
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...=1115&catid=60
still considering which gearset i would want.
There is no way im going to pay for this all at once. Maybe ill order the oil pump timing chain and possibly cam at once, then wait and get the converter later. but how does all of this look? is it good or is there better

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

You should NEVER put in a cam of that size on the stock torque converter. Do the converter FIRST, then the cam. You may want to consider Yank's PT4000 as opposed to that SS4000. It's much more efficient at higher rpm in a naturally aspirated combo.

I have that oil pump on my car. Lots of people do. It's a very worthwhile investment. The timing chain? Overkill IMO, and it often requires grinding the timing cover, shimming the oil pump, clearancing the balancer etc. Stick with an LS2 chain upgrade - no need for the LS2 set, you can reuse the stock sprockets. The money you save on the chain should be put towards some hardened pushrods.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Torque Converter = Biggest performance bang for the buck on an A4 LS1.

-Geoff

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

wouldnt the SS be more streetable than the pt4000

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

The PT will be a little looser, but will pull harder on the big end. I originally ran the SS3600 before I put a cam in the car. Then restalled it to a PT4000 after I put the cam in.

Believe me, knowing what I know now I would have saved myself dropping the transmission again and paying for a $200 ish restall plus shipping. I'd go with the PT4000 right out of the gate.

Unless you plan on spraying just go with the PT series, hell i'm spraying on mine; although I haven't gave it a full 150 yet... about 1/3 of that. :lol:

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Ill go with the PT4000, should i upgrade or resurface the flywheel? Should i buy any new hardware such as bolts etc. Where can i get this converter? How hard is this to put in on your own?

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Resurface the flywheel? You're speaking clutch. :lol: Automatic transmissions have flexplates. The flexplate does not need to be replaced. Bolts come with the converter, but Yank's supplied bolts are too short IMO. I used ARP. You can get the converter directly from Yank at www.converter.cc . Or just call TSP. How hard is it to put in? You have to remove the transmission.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Which really irritated me, I couldn't wait to order the ARPs when I installed so I just took the stockers and spent a little time on the bench grinder with them... :lol:

Actually still running those, but I should switch to the ARP ones next time I have her apart.

I'm guessing with an aftermarket flexplate you may not need any spacers/washers hence the short bolts. They were only too short by the size of my spacer, 1/8" IIRC or 3/16" it's been a couple years.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

I know i have to remove the transmission. But how difficult/ what kind of tools and time is needed to remove it. Can i do this with a floor jack and a socket set or what?

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Jack, 4xJackstands, Cement blocks (I put these under the wheels for added safety)...

1) Jack car up
2) Remove Exhaust
3) Remove Driveshaft
4) Unbolt Torque arm from Tranny
5) Remove Transmission crossmember
6) Lower tranny down about as far as it will go
7) There's a electrical plug on the tranny as well as lines to the radiator you need to remove, also the dipstick.
8) Remove starter
9) Remove 3 bolts holding the Torque converter to the flexplate through the space where the starter went
10) Unbolt tranny

I'm sure I'm leaving little things out like O2 sensors when you remove exhaust, transmission vent tube that is clipped on the torque arm,etc... but that is the major steps.

You can do it with a floor jack, but I would recommend a transmission jack. Install is reverse, you have to measure the play in the torque converter and torque values are stickied in the top of this thread I believe.

It's not that bad, but that REALLY depends on your level of experience wrenching... I can do it in a day, but for a DIY 1st time I would have at least a FULL weekend and that's if everything goes well. (not needing additional parts/tools etc)

We can help you but a good resource would be www.ls1tech.com Just search and you can find a lot of information.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Getting those top bolts out was tons of fun, you will need a few feet of extensions and a swivel or universal socket.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

You'll never get the job done with just a jack and some cheap hand tools. The torque converter bolts are accessed through the starter hole (limited access), and are T50+. They're a huge PITA to deal with - DO NOT STRIP THEM!!! The only other hard part people complain about is the top bellhousing bolts, but I've never had any issues with them. Finally, if the trans has never been out before the dowel pins like to seize to the bellhousing.

I've pulled my trans several times, and I don't use a trans jack or adapter. I have 4 tall stands that I put the car up on, and use a quality floor jack. I benchpress the transmission into place :lol:

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

:lol: I agree, but a trans jack definitely helps! Mine were T'whatever' but I believe a 15mm socket also fit them... I didn't bother throwing a Torx or Allen wrench on them (forget which it was). I've never had issues with the top bolts either, although I would suggest putting some anti-seize on the dowl pins when you have it apart.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Here's a GREAT how-to with pictures:
http://modernmusclecars.net/forums/a...p?do=tcinstall

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

I would like to see that.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

I'll chime in on this whole deal.
The MS3 is daily drivable and is a very popular grind in this area. The tune is what makes or breaks drivsbility of a big cam and fuel consumption. I currently get the same milage in mixed driving and better milage all highway with my 408 (240/244 grind cam) and 3.89 geared 9" vs. LS1 with a little 226 grind and stock geared 10bolt. I've gotten a best of 22 mpg so far, and that was with shall we say spirited driving.
With that all said, I personally don't care for TSP cams and would direct you elsewhere though, preferrably a custom grind.

I have to agree with the others. A converter is a better mod at this point since you don't have one yet.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

A custom grind wouldn't yield anything - power or drivability. On a higher compression engine with aftermarket heads and/or forced induction, sure, but not on an otherwise stock engine. That's what most off-the-shelf LS1 cams were "custom" designed for.

Why don't you care for the TSP cams?

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Agree, all of the "LS1" cams were custom cam's for 346ci LS1s to begin with. They are proven performers.

MS3 has multiple variants between manufacturers with different names. Obviously those valve events work. Just like the 236/240 (Streetsweeper, Tsunami, Speedinc SI6) etc...

I love how everybody now wants a custom cam, but don't get me started on some of the custom cam guys and what their backgrounds really are. (Marketing)

I do like Geoff at EPS though if you feel you need to go that route, he designed a lot of Thunder Racings cams back in the day (Trex, Raptor, etc) and has a lot of LS knowledge and 1st hand experience which is key.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Ill probly just buy the torque converter. The only thing holding me back is i know i wont have time to install it until the end of this year/ next year, and my next mod is going to be brakes. Im just not sure if i want to stop at just putting the converter in or go ahead and send it somewhere and get the trans beefed up too. The cam, If i get it will go after that, but not before do the brakes, ill debate the converter some more.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Seeing how there are shops with proprietary cam lobes making good power over the traditional LS grinds of the same duration, yes a custom ground cam will still make more power than an off the shelf grind. You can also get a tighter LSA if you go with a custom grind.

I'm not a TSP fan at all. IMO they are overhyped.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Give me an example... Show me one of these cams you speak of that you can PROVE that it's superior to the MS3. Like you said, similar duration and lift numbers. Don't differ so much that it would overlap into the territory of another TSP cam offering.

TSP was popular long before sponsoring that other site for a reason.

My stock bottom end 346 PRC heads and MS4 cam car has gone 125mph at 3700lbs on pump gas.

The only place TSP cams suffer is in low-midrange torque. If you've got a 6 speed car with stock gearing it's noticable, but not in a properly built car.

Finally, you can get a range of 109-114 on most TSP cams, regardless of what few options they offer on their website. Call and ask ;)

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

I see what this is about. You want to defend your purchase. Have what you want, but the MS cams are not the end all be all grind and there are other options out there. ;)

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1213394

Show me a 22x grind that can match 430/415 whp on stock LS6 heads. I know many magic stick cars that can't. I even know some with MS3 and MS4 6L cars that barely hit the 430 whp range. Actually I know one person with a TSP 6.0 abd their PRC stage 2.5 heads with a MS cam that only gets mere 10 whp more than that baby cam.

And something about that other site. They defend their sponsors like crazy. It doesn't matter if the shop is horrible or not, just so they get their $. I've also seen some great shops go to crap almost over night. I'm not saying thats the case here, but I've seen it happen. Just because you like TSP doesn't mean everyone has to, and we don't have to explain why. Again there are other options out there that I prefer.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

This thread is starting to smell like pee pee.

ALL big duration cams give up driveability and bottom-end/midrange for high-end horsepower. Those are exactly what the MS3/4 cams are all about -- big duration -- there's no secret about them.

Marc, that's a really good heads/cam MPH. My 471rwhp heads/cam Vette went 123 on a terrible 2.0 60' spinning and granny shifting 3rd gear on a much more friendly 236/239 duration F-15 (although it was still crap for bottom-end/midrange power on stock cubes). Did you have to flycut the pistons for that cam? I'd imagine so or it would be very very close......

Like I said, tho... Most people will want something more driveable than both of those cams -- You can get away with that on a stick car if you don't want to use a big gas-drinking converter in an auto, but you won't feel much until around 4500 rpm. That's why the auto is going to be more driveable with a big stall and you won't notice the lack of low-end power as severely.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

That dyno looks very very "happy" to me. Peak power at < 6000 rpm then it falls on its face, but still makes 430rwhp at 6000? AND 415rwtq with stock LS6 heads? I don't know........ :D

FWIW, my cam-only car put down 415/395 on a Dynojet 248 using a 232/234 duration cam. I suspect with some LS6 heads, it would have gone around 10 rwhp/rwtq more. TONS of power all across the powerband, but a noticeable lope. :D

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...h_MVI_2345.jpg

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...h_MVI_2349.jpg

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

I just KNEW he was going to link that EPS cam thread (the new flavor of the month). Seems he took the bait - mabye he'll put some truck coils on his ride too.

430rwhp by 6000rpm with that duration and a failing fuel pump is complete crap :lol:

Magic lobes :lol: :rolleyes:

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

Pistons were cut both intake and exhaust - .080" on both. Flycutting was required for several reasons: 2.04" intake valve, tight LSA, 862 heads shaved .020" and the .040" head gasket.

At 3700lbs the car has gone a best 60' of 1.51, best ET of 10.89 and a best MPH of 124.9 - I just say 125 :) Switching to some lightweight 15" drag wheels/tires might help, but this is a street car so it stays as is. Running a ported FAST 92 setup, custom 3" dual exhaust, a very loose PT4000 and 3.73 gears. Full suspension, stock K-member.. 420rwhp at 6800rpm through an unlocked converter on a conservative Mustang dyno. Results are pretty typical for what I have in it, as there are a few other similar cars around doing the same.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

What would be a good LSA and pushrod length to choose if i wanted to stay on the side of driveability. Also, would this combo work as good with a manual tranny like it would with an auto with a converter?

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

When it comes to drivability with the MS3, the most important factor is the tune, with proper gearing coming in a close second. LSA won't make much of a difference in an otherwise stock engine, and the pushrod length MUST be measured. TSP can give you a close estimate.

The MS3 cam only will work in a 6 speed car, but a 4.10+ gear ratio is pretty much mandatory. Evne with the proper gearing it will surge and buck a little under load at very low RPMs no matter who tunes it.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

MS4@ 111lsa... Dont be scared of a lil cam surge.

Re: TSP magic stick 3?
 

You cant really tell much by lift and duration at .050". Theres so much more to a cam lobe than just those numbers. Rarely do you ever see advertised duration numbers and duration at various lifts like .100" .200", etc. All of this affects valve motion and can really be the difference in a few ponies over another cam with similar .050" numbers.

Having said that, I'm sure that most of the cams out there with similar durations and lifts that may have been designed for cam only type builds are going to be within few hp of each other. I'm sure some of those companies have spent time on the dyno with various cams to come up with a design to make best power.

Also remember peak power doesnt mean much. Its area under the curve that counts and truly makes the car go faster down the track as long as the gear/tire/suspension/converter if an auto are all dialed in to that specific combination of parts.