I have a 98 ls1 with full bolt ons and I would like to do forged internials and maybe even a supercharger down the road, but right now I want to do heads and cam, but everytime I think I find what seems to be a good set up it turns out to not be. I would really like to run the texas speed shop magic stick 4 which is 239/242 and I dont know what heads would be the best for that, or if that would even be the best one. I am just looking for a pretty extream cam that is still some what streetable. If there is one like the magic stick 4, but will give me a little more power, I would love that, but I really just love the rough idle and the sound of the magic stick 4. So ya if you can help me which heads would work best with that or what heads and cam package would work even better it would be great. Thank you so much Kyle

 

Extreme cam and streetable is not the MS4.. I've driven it, my buddy's car. That cam is about worthless under 3500 rpm. THat's a Peak Numbers cam. Check thunder racing for their selection too. They have a little more in the line of streetable power, not so much PEAK numbers.

If you want to do a S/C down the road, start w/ the mods for THAT... PRC 2.5 heads are good for the S/C/FI car. Bigger valves. It may not make the most power n/a, but when you strap that blower on there, it'll SCREAM!!!!!

For a S/C go w/ a wide LSA, like a 114 lobe. For a s/c cam, I'd say a 224/232 .581/.595 114 LSA.. -That'll give you some NICE Torque!

 

Why do you want an "extreme" cam? They drive like crap and you have to rev the **** out of them to make power. Also, the car will need a big gear.

If you want a "bigger" cam, I'd suggest something in the low-mid 230 duration range on a 110-112 LSA. Anything bigger than that in a stock-cube motor is overkill IMO. I had a 236/239 .600+ 112 +2 and it didn't like anything under 4000 rpm, but it made 471/416 to the wheels.

If you're doing heads/cam, you'll probably want to spend another $1000 on a FAST 90/90 setup. It's worth 15-20rwhp over the LS6 and ported TB.

You'd be surprised how nice a Futral F-13 or F-14 and some Dart 225s will perform

 

OK so those dart heads look like something I have been looking for, but what will I need to do to run those with the magic stick 4 because the ms4 has a power band from 2400 to about 6800 so its not to bad of what I want. I am just trying to figure out what else I need to run this. I am getting the ls6 oil pump and a double roller timing chain. I just need to figure out what else I would need to run 6800 rpm's. Futral has those dart 225 heads assembled for $1600 and I am trying to figure out what else I need with those. Thanks for your help

 

I agree with Kraest on this one, but would like to add some input. I think a big cam like that is useless unless all out racing, with a setup that matches its characteristics. My cam is small by todays standards apparently, but I am very pleased with it.
For a shelf cam the F13 is a good choice, it sounds mean and is a proven reliable cam with a decent powerband. My problem with alot of the shelf cams for LS1's are that even the small cams are setup to be spun to rpm's as high as alot of the larger cams. Even still many of these cars are faster then alot of the large cam or H/C packages at the track.
The MS4 sounds good no doubt, but for a otherwise stock internal engine....its far away from having enough piston to valve clearance if you ask me. Also I have yet to see any great cam only results with it either, let alone track results....maybe they are out there but I haven't see them. Thats not really just with that cam, its like that for alot of these huge cams that people want to run because they sound crazy. Locally we have seen plenty of these huge dyno queen cams come in and run slow and never return.
My suggestion if looking for something that sounds good is to look into either some good ported heads....like LS6 heads, or some nice AFR, TFS, Darts, ETP etc and if going with a shelf cam something like G5X2/X3, F13/F14, FTI streetsweeper HT/hellfire etc. These cams sound very good, are proven to run as well have more Pto V clearance for street driven car.

 

Have you ever driven a car w/ a huge cam in it before??

If not, than you really dont know what your getting yourself into man,im tellin ya. STREET-ABILITY is different for every person alive,some think a F-15 cam is ok while someone else might think a 224 cam is too much on the street.

You really need to figure out COMPLETELY what you wanna do/will wanna do in the future as far as mods go. Doing a S/C later on WILL and SHOULD be considered when choosing a cam.

Do you drag race alot/want to race alot or just want the cam just for the "sound cool" factor? Ive read about several people doing it for the cool factor and then end up hating the car b/c its a bear to drive in stop n go traffic w/o having 4.56 gears.

If you dont end up doing a blower in the future,getting the compression up to around 11.5:1 would be a great idea for a little more driveability and power. Itll rev a little quicker also.

Im not trying to scare you away from doing it,just trying to help you get your ducks in a row so it will RUN like YOU want it to run.

 

Saying that the MS4 has a "usable" powerband from 2400 to 6800 is like saying that Rosie O'Donnell is kinda chubby.

More like 4000-6800 on stock cubes.

The MS4 probably won't clear the big valves of the Dart 225s without flycutting the pistons, especially if you use a different head gasket or mill the heads. You'll definetly need to check PtV clearance with a cam that size. My F-15 at 236/239 on a 112 and only 2 degrees advance had around .070" or so clearance with the .020" milled Dart 225s..... barely enough.. a manual over-rev would have created a valve/piston party.

You'll need a ported oil pump, LS2 timing chain, hardened pushrods, and assembled heads with valvetrain that support your camshaft's lift and duration.

 

LOL!!

 

So then do you think I would be able to run the F14 with those dart heads. I am just trying to figure out the most power combo and so that is why I wanted the ms4. I guess it just sounds like to much of a pain though. I am just way confused now, because I have to be honest I dont know heads and cam at all, but you all have been great so thank you .

 

Futral Motorsports uses those Dart heads alot, and have very good results. Give them a call, Im sure they can get you headed in the right direction.

 

I've got the MS4 in my car and drive it everywhere, all the time. It drives no differently than my 221/221 cam that I had in before - but I'm now running near 12.0:1 compression in a well matched combo with a quality torque converter that's all been tuned by someone who is very experienced. However, if you're running stock compression with a 6 speed you'll probably not like the MS4 very much.

If you want to run any type of valve size , head, or head gasket other than stock (with the exception of an altered valve angle head) you WILL have to cut the pistons. The MS4 cuts PTV extremely tight on an otherwise stock engine.

For a stock displacement, stock compression LS1, Kraest is right. Something in low 230 duration would work very well. See if you can find one cut on a 110LSA, as that will help provide the aggressive idle you seek.

Finally, if you were to raise the compression up above 11.5:1 I would HIGHLY recommend that cam. I've driven way too many small to medium sized cammed cars, and NOTHING compares to the performance above 4000RPM. The powerband certainly DOES NOT begin around 2400RPM Like I've said before, the engine is very lazy below 3000RPM, comes to life around 4000RPM, and by 5000RPM you will forget about any 230 duration cam

 

Yep. You won't have any PtV issues with that combo since the F-14 is 232/234 and right at .598" lift. I'd also go with some Cometic .040" gaskets for that combo to raise the compression. Top it off with a FAST 90/90, and you'll make well north of 450rwhp.

Mike

 

I was gonna say.. THat must have a DARN good tune in it. Also, the A4's may act a little differently. I've driven my Buddy's M6 MS4 H&C car and you REALLY have to kick that car to get it to move from a stop.. TSP Mail order Tune. I wasn't beating on it, but it did NOT like to cruise under 2krpm. I was on the HW with it and got into it a little bit from 3 grand and it pulled like my stock internal car. Granted I didn't tach it too much, but my car seemed to have more SNAP to it..

Come to think of it.. I think I'm going to ask if I can take it for a cruise this weekend... I'll see if he wants to switch cars for a cruise.. I'll get a vid and post it up in the lounge..



Anyway.. I digress..

YEah.. A 230 duration cam should be good.. But I also want to remind the previous posters that he does plan on a s/c in the future.. Granted Cam swaps are easy with these cars, but he may want to set up for the final build and do it once. .. Just a thought. Don't want to step on toes..

 

Tune is from a local guy/shop that has countless numerous 9 second builds to his credit, along with a few 8 second cars, all LSx - won the 2007 Hot Rod Pump Gas Drags He had my car for over a week getting it dialed in - although it's still not 100% perfect.

My coworker has a similar TSP H/C combo, but with less compression and an MS3 cam, similar bolt-ons in a manual trans car. It's REALLY lazy at low RPMs. On the other hand my loose converter car with more compression is a joy to drive, power everywhere, and will cruise with no bucking at 1500RPM with the converter locked.