kingoleer

Hey everybody! I want to start by saying I'm glad to be here.

I fell in love with the Camaro a couple years ago. A buddy of mine had a '96 V6 auto and it wasn't that it had blazing speed (bone stock) but there was just something about it. It was an awesome car. Unfortunately he parted ways with it for a Volvo and I didn't have the money at the time to buy it.

I've narrowed it down between the Trans Am and the Camaro, and I'm basically sold on the Camaro. I'm not interested in how much horsepower I can get out of it but more interested in building low through midrange torque.
Top speed isn't a concern of mine.

What I'm looking for is reliability first of all. I've read through some of the posts here about people having problems with the Camaro but they seem really limited to just a few individuals and nothing that could be taken care of with some basic mechanical knowledge. This can be expected of any car, regardless of make or model.

What I would like to know is the opinion of the experts (you guys). Which engine would be best for building low end torque (It'll be an LS1)?

Second, the Camaro I buy will most likely be a high mileage car (meaning 70,000 miles or more). When I'm looking at the car are there any subtleties in the engine or on the body that could tell me that the car has been abused, even if its been cleaned and the carfax comes back clean?

Third and final question: Is there a certain mileage after which you wouldn't buy one of these cars, no matter how good it seemed? Would it be past 100,000 - 130,000 - 150,000? Maybe more or less?

I want to say thanks to everyone who takes the time to read through that and especially to those that respond. I am very excited about getting to own one of these cars and hope to be driving in one soon.

1KillerV6

LT1's have better low end TQ. LS1's have good low end and massive top end. I'd buy any mileage F-body given its not a POS. If its old...i'll be able to get it cheap and i'll drop in a new engine I just wouldn't get one that has a lot of problems.

teke184

with the LS1 you'll be impressed with the power you have stock. simple bolt ons will increase that feeling immensly.

a basic ram air kit like the SSRA, lid, headers and catback will really wake up the car.

then you can do things to improve the other areas of the car, making it feel more powerful but not actually adding hp. things like suspension both cornering and traction, and tranny changes like a torque converter if it's an auto.

86fbird

The LT1 is a good engine, and from what I can gather it will have the power you want without a lot of work. The LS1 is a great engine, and will have the power you want with little to no work.

I would seek out an LS1 car simply for the fact that they will be newer and finding a low-mileage, unmolested one in good shape will be easier.

86fbird

As for subtle things on the body:

As with any unit-body car, check the windshield for cracks. A crack starting at the bottom corner and propagating its way toward the center is a sign of a warped unibody.

Be leery of any used car with a new set of tires on the rear, especially if they are cheap, off-brand tires. This usually means that the car has done more than its share of burnouts and the dealer replaced the bald rear tires.

Check door alignment. Camaros have long, heavy doors that sag with time. This is even worse if the car was owned by a person who has a tendency to slam doors. This is a repairable fault, but why do it if you don't have to?

Take out the owners manual and look at the maintenance record. The more detail you see, the better.

Average mileage on a car is 12,000 a year. With a fudge factor of about 5,000 miles or so, I would look for a car that has that kind of mileage on it. (I.E. a '97 model is 7 years old, so it should have about 84,000 miles on it. Wouldn't get one with more than 90K on the clock.) Again, don't put yourself through any more work than you have to.

Also, know the NADA value of the car before you start dealing for it. nadaguides.com can help you out there. Purposely low-ball the dealer, don't give him any more than you have to. Winter is the best time to buy a sports car; they don't move off the lots very well as people are more interested in 4x4's this time of year. This gives dealers more incentive to sell the car cheap.

Compstall

LT1's make good torque down low, but IMO the BEST bottom end torque engine is a TPI (IROC, GTA) car.

Either way you look at it, F-bodies are definitely not Toyota's and need TLC more often.

WestCoast96Z28

First of all...welcome to the board.

Having a 96 daily driver, I like LT1s better for their low end torque...that's all I need b/w stoplights. But there's a limit to the LT1. As for LS1s, I hear the limit is much greater for mods. But are you looking for a 350hp daily driver or a 500hp racer?

As for reliability, like Compstall said "F-bodies are definitely not Toyotas..."

On the other hand...it's not that bad. Maybe I got a lucky one (knock on wood), but I've had O2 sensors, control board for fans, light switches, power window motor go bad, but that's about it. Engine and tranny have been leak free (knock several times on wood). All easily replaceable items. Yeah, they may not be rated for 1,000,000 cycles so there's no maintenance by the owner, but I doubt that most F-Body drivers are that concerned about have a car that is absolutely carefree. That's the price to pay for real power.

Another thing to note is that you will not have a problem finding parts. These cars are well supported for aftermarket parts or swap exchanges as on this site.

As for subtleties...I don't know where you live, but you can look for rust on the underside and on parts. I fortunately live in an area without snow or a lot of rain, so most parts look pretty good. You can check the tires for alignment issues. You can check fluids for proper color and texture. If possible check for leaks..if previous owner didnt' clean the underbody around tranny and engine.

One thing to understand is that these cars squeak, rattle, vibrate, etc. ..they're not luxury cars, so don't be surprised.

Lastly, if you have a choice...get the V8. SS/Firehawk or Z28, just get it now so you don't regret it later. These cars weigh to much to be hauled around with a V6.

teke184

"Check door alignment. Camaros have long, heavy doors that sag with time. This is even worse if the car was owned by a person who has a tendency to slam doors"

not as big of a problem with the 4th gens. both the lt1 and ls1 cars have fiberglass doors so they are MUCH lighter. BUT you still have alot of window and since they are long it puts alot of torque on the hinges...so it can still be something to look at.

BirchMan98z

Where the idea came from that LT1s make more torque down low is beyond me. LS1s are dyno proven again and agian, and again---and again and again. And again and again to have just as much, and in many cases, more torque in lower RPMs than LT1 cars.

Here's just one example. I've picked two WS6 trans ams, one LT1, and the other LS1.

This is an LS1 car, stock with a B&M shifter

http://www.zvis.com/car/cartpl.shtml...ar/zvidyno.jpg

This is an LT1 car, and to keep it competitive, I've even picked one with an underdrive pulley (it's a bit of a freak too) and hypertech programmer + 160 tstat.

http://www.ws6.com/mod-3.htm

http://www.ws6.com/mod-2.htm

Note that at the same RPM, the ls1 is always making more torque than the MODDED freak LT1.

Here's another LS1 showing torque/power at lower RPMs (which really means nothing considering it's not in the 1/1 ratio) but note the torque at low RPMs.

http://ls1.fbody.com/dynos.html (ls1 with lid, and MAF, which probably hurt the car more than it helped, 1st graph)

Compare THAT to THIS... an LT1 with LT4 heads, LT4 intake, and a mild camhttp://kerry.avsia.com/dyno.htm


I can do this all day, but the fact is the mythical LT1 low end doesn't exist vs. ls1 cars, even when LT1s are modded.

kingoleer

All I can say is "wow guys". I can't believe the amount of help I just got from all of you guys. That really was invaluable. I want to thank you again.

So basically, just go with the SS, Firehawk, or Z28 but stay with a V8 LS1. It's funny you mentioned F bodies not being like Toyotas because I own a 1996 Camry right now and I've had it since I started driving (back in 2000). Needless to say, I've been in the car market since I got that car.

By the way, I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area so I don't have to worry about snow driven vehicles or road salt. Just a lot of heat, humidity, and sun.

WestCoast96Z28

Don't get me wrong...nothing wrong with Toyotas or any of the imports...they make great cars. I had a Civic for a while and now a Pilot, the quality and reliability is great. You might want to hang onto that Camry for gas mileage, though. I get 16mpg with my Z28. But yes, you must get a V8. It's a good thing you missed out on your buddy's V6.

Chrisz24

Tires are a big one.

I only replace all 4 at a time, a car with only 2 new ones, especially on the back means they were playing some.....

Oil color/condition, smoke out exhaust when start up, transmition fluid color and condition of level.

Power steering fluid and the sound steering make, (is it noisy?), lots of hard burnouts around turns arent good for power steering pump.

Water spots? T tops and windows are known to leak-

Overall physical shape? I know mine was parked under a tree till it was traded in because I was pulling leaves out of cracks in the body for months

Mods? I wouldnt buy a sports car with mods, some might but to me that means its been toyed with.

Power windows? they are always on their way out in a F bod-

Rear discs? if ther warped hard chances are the car's been power braked-

General wear- does the car's look reflect the miles?

Automatics should be firm shifts- and react well

Manuals shouldnt slip against the clutch-

Thats all I can think about for now

~Chris

Compstall

Your LS1 dyno graph clearly shows it probably wasn't making 300 ft. lbs. of torque at 2,000 rpm or less. My LT1 makes 300+ ft. lbs. of torque at 1,800 rpm.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...65_28_full.jpg

....and this was with a CAI and cat-back exhaust only for power mods.

BirchMan98z

lol yes, for 500 RPMs the LT1 makes more torque, that's what... a tenth of a second tops? Not to mention your car is modded, albeit lightly, that's not a fair comparison. None of the cars are making 300+ torque at under 2000 RPMs, one is right ON 300rwtq @ 1800rpm.

Furthermore, your car has 2.73 gears I imagine... so your 1/1 ratio is at 2730 RPMs, an LS1 6 speed has 3.42 gears, so the 1/1 ratio is at 3420 RPMs, now take another look at the dyno graphs, in each 1/1 ratio, the LS1 cars are making more than 300 rwtq.

The fact is LS1 and LT1 cars are very SIMILAR at low end as far as making power, but where an LT1 is dropping off, and LS1 is still making power, hence the differences.

Compstall

This is a 3-year old dyno graph of my car with only a CAI and cat-back exhaust. And it's "just" a flowbastard exhaust, you know, the one everyone says is "restrictive", and, "my car made more power with the stock exhaust".

And no, I got 3.42's. Oh yeah, sounds like a challenge to me. I highly doubt I gained over 20 pounds of torque at the wheels with only a CAI and exhaust.