Switching to ms2 extra
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
Switching to ms2 extra
I have spent the past week rewiring just about everything in the car. Ok, that's a stretch but I have redone everything related to engine management. More under dash work to come later.
I can't believe how crappy some of my early stuff was. 4 injector wires crammed in to a butt connector with bare wires everywhere. Very sad. Now its all soldered, heat shrink, wire loom. Looks pretty close to stock.
Only had to change a few wires/components on the board and then loaded the new firmware last night. Got to finish my base tune and all the settings today and hopefully have it running. It did fire last night with a very rough base but didn't idle.
Over the base Megasquirt 2 config this will give me:
direct coil pack control - Getting it running on edis but later dropping the ignition module
boost control built into the ecm - $35 for the parts instead of some $200 controller - mappable with a table
launch control / 2 step - edis won't do this but once I go direct its all in the same box - can also do flat shifts - think of it as a soft rev limiter for power shifting
closed loop idle - MS2 only uses temp for iac steps, now I can set target rpms like a stock computer (biggest reason for the switch)
16x16 fuel table - old one was 12x12
Wont be using it but it also has a 2 stage programmable n20 controller that does window and wot for you - can do wet or configure the added fuel through the computer for a dry kit - no raising line pressure or other crap
I may be out of spare ports but you could also use the n20 controller for meth injection
Did I mention I still have less than the cost of a replacment opti in my ecm and ignition system?
I get frequent questions about MS, I hope more people will consider it when looking at tuning options - need some people to share with.
I can't believe how crappy some of my early stuff was. 4 injector wires crammed in to a butt connector with bare wires everywhere. Very sad. Now its all soldered, heat shrink, wire loom. Looks pretty close to stock.
Only had to change a few wires/components on the board and then loaded the new firmware last night. Got to finish my base tune and all the settings today and hopefully have it running. It did fire last night with a very rough base but didn't idle.
Over the base Megasquirt 2 config this will give me:
direct coil pack control - Getting it running on edis but later dropping the ignition module
boost control built into the ecm - $35 for the parts instead of some $200 controller - mappable with a table
launch control / 2 step - edis won't do this but once I go direct its all in the same box - can also do flat shifts - think of it as a soft rev limiter for power shifting
closed loop idle - MS2 only uses temp for iac steps, now I can set target rpms like a stock computer (biggest reason for the switch)
16x16 fuel table - old one was 12x12
Wont be using it but it also has a 2 stage programmable n20 controller that does window and wot for you - can do wet or configure the added fuel through the computer for a dry kit - no raising line pressure or other crap
I may be out of spare ports but you could also use the n20 controller for meth injection
Did I mention I still have less than the cost of a replacment opti in my ecm and ignition system?
I get frequent questions about MS, I hope more people will consider it when looking at tuning options - need some people to share with.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
Well I got it running finally.
Note: MS2 firmware lets you adjust a trigger offset in degrees - so if your trigger is off, you can adjust it. This number is there in msextra but is ignored while running edis. I had to get the drill out and redo my trigger wheel.
Now lots more tuning. I'm starting from scratch again instead of reusing my old tables. I redid my reqfuel based on my new fuel pressure so it through my tables off.
Having closed loop idle control again is making it like driving a stock car. Runs much smoother now.
Note: MS2 firmware lets you adjust a trigger offset in degrees - so if your trigger is off, you can adjust it. This number is there in msextra but is ignored while running edis. I had to get the drill out and redo my trigger wheel.
Now lots more tuning. I'm starting from scratch again instead of reusing my old tables. I redid my reqfuel based on my new fuel pressure so it through my tables off.
Having closed loop idle control again is making it like driving a stock car. Runs much smoother now.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,705
From: Kansas
ah, yeah, i rewired my car a while back for my LC-1, and some of my old soldering wasnt so pretty. everything was heatshrinked, etc though, and i just had wires randomly crammed everywhere so it was like a rats nest of wires.
Everything this time is neatly placed and organized.
Everything this time is neatly placed and organized.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
What officer?
70mph burnouts?
Don't know who could pull that off. I mean, look at these mickey thompsons. I doubt I could even spin them from a dead stop.
Anyone thinking of going MS - skip straight to extra. It runs so much better now, and there are so many new features.
70mph burnouts?
Don't know who could pull that off. I mean, look at these mickey thompsons. I doubt I could even spin them from a dead stop.
Anyone thinking of going MS - skip straight to extra. It runs so much better now, and there are so many new features.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 104
From: WI
I'll be pulling my car out in the next two weeks.
The first order of business is to get rid of the 600B and finish up the fab work on the TC-76 setup. Then I'll be swapping to a MS2.
Needless to say, I will probably be asking for pictures and some other stuff when that time comes. (I'm not a rookie to MS)
Keep up the good work.
The first order of business is to get rid of the 600B and finish up the fab work on the TC-76 setup. Then I'll be swapping to a MS2.
Needless to say, I will probably be asking for pictures and some other stuff when that time comes. (I'm not a rookie to MS)
Keep up the good work.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,026
From: Ohio
This is exactly why I logged on today. I need to start exploring alternative ECU options.
1) How much do these systems cost?
2) Where did you buy it?
3) How much time does it take to install it right?
4) What is "edis?"
5) Will the stock PCM be in place controlling the 4L60e?
6) I'm not ready to get rid of my opti YET, but I probably will be sooner than later so does this work with the stock ignition?
My primary reason for going aftermarket is to run a 3bar MAP and be able to tune it w/o "tricking" the stock PCM (although I do give props to the guys who have figured out how to do that...it's been a loooong time coming.)
1) How much do these systems cost?
2) Where did you buy it?
3) How much time does it take to install it right?
4) What is "edis?"
5) Will the stock PCM be in place controlling the 4L60e?
6) I'm not ready to get rid of my opti YET, but I probably will be sooner than later so does this work with the stock ignition?
My primary reason for going aftermarket is to run a 3bar MAP and be able to tune it w/o "tricking" the stock PCM (although I do give props to the guys who have figured out how to do that...it's been a loooong time coming.)
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
This is exactly why I logged on today. I need to start exploring alternative ECU options.
1) How much do these systems cost?
2) Where did you buy it?
3) How much time does it take to install it right?
4) What is "edis?"
5) Will the stock PCM be in place controlling the 4L60e?
6) I'm not ready to get rid of my opti YET, but I probably will be sooner than later so does this work with the stock ignition?
My primary reason for going aftermarket is to run a 3bar MAP and be able to tune it w/o "tricking" the stock PCM (although I do give props to the guys who have figured out how to do that...it's been a loooong time coming.)
1) How much do these systems cost?
2) Where did you buy it?
3) How much time does it take to install it right?
4) What is "edis?"
5) Will the stock PCM be in place controlling the 4L60e?
6) I'm not ready to get rid of my opti YET, but I probably will be sooner than later so does this work with the stock ignition?
My primary reason for going aftermarket is to run a 3bar MAP and be able to tune it w/o "tricking" the stock PCM (although I do give props to the guys who have figured out how to do that...it's been a loooong time coming.)
2)DIYautotune.com is the main source on our side of the pond. Several places in europe but he is the go to guy here.
3)Time can vary greatly. I built my computer so that was @ 10 hours of soldering. Depending on how you rewire everything it may be 20-40 hours getting running.
4)EDIS is the Ford waste spark ignition system they used throughout the 90s and even later on some vehicles. Its a 36 tooth wheel usually on the back of the crank pulley with a magnetic pickup. Has an ignition module that controls most of it and 4 coil packs - hence wastespark. 1 and 6 fire at the same time. When 1 is going through combustion, 6 is exhaust so it doesn't really do anything. Wires, module, wheel, pickup, coils can be had for @ $100. So its a good (better than opti in my book) ignition system for not much money. Its almost like going coil pack per cyl.
5)I don't have a good answer for you there. I know there are some custom firmware users out there that have the MS controlling an electronic tranny. I only have it running on a t56 and a turbo 400. If you still had the opti hooked up to the stock computer (for a tach signal) and the vss for speed then yes I think the stock computer would still do it with no trouble. You could even leave the opti for ignition and just have the MS control fuel if you wanted.
Keeping the opti/stock computer you could do your timing at 100kpa for boost (not like you need to change it much between 150 and 200kpa) and us MS to do your fuel and still have a lot of control. Yes the MS can read from and drive an ignition system through the opti and stock coil - I have not wired one that way but there are writeups for it. DIYautotune has a writeup and kit for a lt1.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
Also I am going to ditch EDIS eventually and just control my coilpacks directly from the MS some time later. Need to build some some ignitors for the coils and change a little wiring.
If any of it sounds greek, theres nothing hard about whats going on here - just a lot of information at once.
If any of it sounds greek, theres nothing hard about whats going on here - just a lot of information at once.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,026
From: Ohio
hmm...yes, I'm not too worried about my timing under boost, but I do want to control my fuel. Right now I experience some serious lag at partial throttle acceleration. While it's sluggish under light load coming out of a curve or up a hill you can watch fuel cloud out of the exhaust behind the car before it leans out a little and puts you back in the seat after you give it more throttle and hit the WOT tables. It's killing my gas mileage...
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
13.0 at 100kpa
12.8 at 125
12.5 at 150
12.0 at 200
11.5 at 250kpa
And pretty much spot on everytime too.
I tried to do an on boost - off boost tune like you have and hated it. Even thought this t70 spools very fast its still all transitions.
12.8 at 125
12.5 at 150
12.0 at 200
11.5 at 250kpa
And pretty much spot on everytime too.
I tried to do an on boost - off boost tune like you have and hated it. Even thought this t70 spools very fast its still all transitions.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
***Sharing a pm someone from the vette forums sent me
I was just joking the other day about starting up a tuning business on the side to do
installs and tuning with megasquirt
Maybe I need to. Good to see the name is getting around.
Theres nothing really wrong with batchfire injectors. Really any of the newer cars run batch fire above a certain rpm because there just insn't enough time to do 8 different squirts when the motor is screaking. I think lt1/ls1s go batch fire around 3k rpms.
Flashing those early chips are a pain though..
1.) Any MS will sense boost. Up until recently some people liked the MS1 because there was more "extra" code available for it. Extra code might include things like elctronic auto tranny control, two steps, n20 controllers, etc. Stuf you wouldn't normally find in a stock computer. MS2 has a much faster processor and more flexibilty. Now their extra support is just as good too. Any will work - If you ask me I say run MS2 with the extra firmware. Differences in the boards: you won't find a v2.2 or older anymore. A 3.0 board is hand soldered either by you or the vendor. A 3.57 board is all surface mount electronics. Its a cleaner build, but if you even need to modify something good luck. The default map sensor now is 2.5bar - so thats good for around 22ish pounds of boost. DIY sells a 4 bar with instructions (easy to do) and I have heard of a 6 bar, but never seen much info on it.
2.)Dig around on diyautotune.com they have some articles and one of the recent ones is a write up for getting it to work with an opti. Theres nothing extra to buy if you keep the opti - but I would suggest considering other options such as edis the next time you have an opti die. You can build an edis setup for half or less what an opti costs.
3.) Far easier to tune than the stock computer. Real time tuning? Yes. You can do anything from the old school: log, drive, stop, tune from the log OR adjust anything real time while the car is running. Take a friend and go for a drive and tune on the fly or on the dyno. Or theres always the autotune - configure the AFR table with the values you want and the computer will automatically change the ve table based on a wideband to get to your target afr. Even under boost if you want. Closed loop can be run all the time and under boost/wot too.
4.) You can use 2 o2 sensors - 2 wideband if you wanted. I am using 1. Single turbo and the sensor is in my down pipe. For you you could run 2 seperate - or for cost savings just tune from one bank - have a spare bung in the other bank and compare it when you get done tuning. Some people do this and if one side is a bit leaner you just tune that side to where you want it.
The ONLY thing my stock computer is doing now taking the vss and driving my speedo. I'm looking into options to do that without the computer, its just not high on my list.
All other gauges are either from the ms (tach) or straight from the sensors themselves (coolant, oil psi, gas etc)
I was just joking the other day about starting up a tuning business on the side to do
installs and tuning with megasquirt
Maybe I need to. Good to see the name is getting around.Theres nothing really wrong with batchfire injectors. Really any of the newer cars run batch fire above a certain rpm because there just insn't enough time to do 8 different squirts when the motor is screaking. I think lt1/ls1s go batch fire around 3k rpms.
Flashing those early chips are a pain though..
1.) Any MS will sense boost. Up until recently some people liked the MS1 because there was more "extra" code available for it. Extra code might include things like elctronic auto tranny control, two steps, n20 controllers, etc. Stuf you wouldn't normally find in a stock computer. MS2 has a much faster processor and more flexibilty. Now their extra support is just as good too. Any will work - If you ask me I say run MS2 with the extra firmware. Differences in the boards: you won't find a v2.2 or older anymore. A 3.0 board is hand soldered either by you or the vendor. A 3.57 board is all surface mount electronics. Its a cleaner build, but if you even need to modify something good luck. The default map sensor now is 2.5bar - so thats good for around 22ish pounds of boost. DIY sells a 4 bar with instructions (easy to do) and I have heard of a 6 bar, but never seen much info on it.
2.)Dig around on diyautotune.com they have some articles and one of the recent ones is a write up for getting it to work with an opti. Theres nothing extra to buy if you keep the opti - but I would suggest considering other options such as edis the next time you have an opti die. You can build an edis setup for half or less what an opti costs.
3.) Far easier to tune than the stock computer. Real time tuning? Yes. You can do anything from the old school: log, drive, stop, tune from the log OR adjust anything real time while the car is running. Take a friend and go for a drive and tune on the fly or on the dyno. Or theres always the autotune - configure the AFR table with the values you want and the computer will automatically change the ve table based on a wideband to get to your target afr. Even under boost if you want. Closed loop can be run all the time and under boost/wot too.
4.) You can use 2 o2 sensors - 2 wideband if you wanted. I am using 1. Single turbo and the sensor is in my down pipe. For you you could run 2 seperate - or for cost savings just tune from one bank - have a spare bung in the other bank and compare it when you get done tuning. Some people do this and if one side is a bit leaner you just tune that side to where you want it.
The ONLY thing my stock computer is doing now taking the vss and driving my speedo. I'm looking into options to do that without the computer, its just not high on my list.
All other gauges are either from the ms (tach) or straight from the sensors themselves (coolant, oil psi, gas etc)
Originally Posted by dizwiz24
HI,
I have some questions about your megasquirt 2 setup.
I was referred to you from the corvetteforum.com website.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-f...y-setup-2.html
Im getting ready to add a used procharger to my heads/cam/long tube headers 93 vette.
Im going with big injectors, fuel pump, and tune vs. the FMU that procharger supplies.
92-93 corvette lt1s have the goofy speed density fuel injection and batchfire injectors - making tuning changes more difficult. Also, the computers cant sense boost. It is possible to tune fuel around the boost as if it were 'constant', but stuff like belt slip can change the boost curve.
Anyways, Im told megasquirt 2 is an economical solution for what Im looking for. It also enables us to keep most of our dash functions by only having the megasquirt control fuel delivery. The stock PCM remains hooked up and 'tricked' so that it still functions for dash function purposes.
The only thing with megasquirt is I cant really find any great instructions on it. Just a bit of info here and there.
Im specifically looking to find out:
1. What model MS do I need to be able to sense 'boost' like your post describes?
2. Any tips/tricks that I will need to know for LT1? Im keeping my optispark for cost reasons.
3. How was tuning for everyday driveability?
4. ARe you using a wideband w/ it? If so which exhaust bank do you screw the wideband sensor into? Or do you use 2 widebank sensors? My exhaust is entirely separate to the tips - no crossover or x-pipe.
My final goal is a wideband based system w/ 'cockpit' mounted A/F gauge. Also, a tuning system I can re-tune in the event I add a new motor, turbo, etc.
I have some questions about your megasquirt 2 setup.
I was referred to you from the corvetteforum.com website.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-f...y-setup-2.html
Im getting ready to add a used procharger to my heads/cam/long tube headers 93 vette.
Im going with big injectors, fuel pump, and tune vs. the FMU that procharger supplies.
92-93 corvette lt1s have the goofy speed density fuel injection and batchfire injectors - making tuning changes more difficult. Also, the computers cant sense boost. It is possible to tune fuel around the boost as if it were 'constant', but stuff like belt slip can change the boost curve.
Anyways, Im told megasquirt 2 is an economical solution for what Im looking for. It also enables us to keep most of our dash functions by only having the megasquirt control fuel delivery. The stock PCM remains hooked up and 'tricked' so that it still functions for dash function purposes.
The only thing with megasquirt is I cant really find any great instructions on it. Just a bit of info here and there.
Im specifically looking to find out:
1. What model MS do I need to be able to sense 'boost' like your post describes?
2. Any tips/tricks that I will need to know for LT1? Im keeping my optispark for cost reasons.
3. How was tuning for everyday driveability?
4. ARe you using a wideband w/ it? If so which exhaust bank do you screw the wideband sensor into? Or do you use 2 widebank sensors? My exhaust is entirely separate to the tips - no crossover or x-pipe.
My final goal is a wideband based system w/ 'cockpit' mounted A/F gauge. Also, a tuning system I can re-tune in the event I add a new motor, turbo, etc.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 840
From: Nashville, TN
This is awesome, Im going to be running the powerefi setup and Sean should have the bugs worked out of the "extra" by the time im ready to order. Its going to be nice to have a boost controller and 2step!! All for half what a fast or BS3 costs!!!
On the 2 step, can you set it up in a no lift configuration(on when the clutch is engaged and @ WOT)?
On the 2 step, can you set it up in a no lift configuration(on when the clutch is engaged and @ WOT)?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,182
From: Moore OK
This is awesome, Im going to be running the powerefi setup and Sean should have the bugs worked out of the "extra" by the time im ready to order. Its going to be nice to have a boost controller and 2step!! All for half what a fast or BS3 costs!!!
On the 2 step, can you set it up in a no lift configuration(on when the clutch is engaged and @ WOT)?
On the 2 step, can you set it up in a no lift configuration(on when the clutch is engaged and @ WOT)?