Manual vs. Auto
08-02-2007, 06:25 PM
#1
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 839
Manual vs. Auto
**Of course a manual will be a stock stalled auto, this is strictly auto/stall/gears vs M6/gears with similar mods discussion**
Okay, In another local car site we have this discussion going about which is faster; auto/stall/gear or manual/gear. Similar mods of course. They all have 6spds and swear by them. I have only had auto cars and know what a stall/gear combo can do. The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.
Is there any sort of proof one way or the other as to which is faster?
Is there a log or a site that shows proof. So which is faster? Has anyone simply swapped trannies because one was faster and gotten better times over the other?
Okay, In another local car site we have this discussion going about which is faster; auto/stall/gear or manual/gear. Similar mods of course. They all have 6spds and swear by them. I have only had auto cars and know what a stall/gear combo can do. The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.
Is there any sort of proof one way or the other as to which is faster?
Is there a log or a site that shows proof. So which is faster? Has anyone simply swapped trannies because one was faster and gotten better times over the other?
Thats pretty much the exact opposite of true.
08-02-2007, 08:09 PM
#3
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Western NY
Posts: 106
**Of course a manual will be a stock stalled auto, this is strictly auto/stall/gears vs M6/gears with similar mods discussion**
Okay, In another local car site we have this discussion going about which is faster; auto/stall/gear or manual/gear. Similar mods of course. They all have 6spds and swear by them. I have only had auto cars and know what a stall/gear combo can do. The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.
Is there any sort of proof one way or the other as to which is faster?
Is there a log or a site that shows proof. So which is faster? Has anyone simply swapped trannies because one was faster and gotten better times over the other?
Okay, In another local car site we have this discussion going about which is faster; auto/stall/gear or manual/gear. Similar mods of course. They all have 6spds and swear by them. I have only had auto cars and know what a stall/gear combo can do. The only defense they can come up with is the "I can shift faster than any auto" remarks.
Is there any sort of proof one way or the other as to which is faster?
Is there a log or a site that shows proof. So which is faster? Has anyone simply swapped trannies because one was faster and gotten better times over the other?
08-03-2007, 04:30 AM
#5
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08-03-2007, 08:06 AM
#6
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I personally know very few people who can shift well enough to go quicker in a manual than an automatic.
When NHRA Pro Stock, in 1973, generally switched from standard to automatic two speed lencos, most drivers went quicker, some by as much as a full tenth of a second. The only driver known to slow down by switching to an automatic, quantifiably so, was Ronnie Sox, by a verified
.04
This is typically the case between automatics and manuals. "Everybody" thinks they can shift faster than an automatic, and it is true there is less parasitic power loss with a standard, so on paper a manual is quicker/faster. However after years at the strip and thousands of passes, I have seen time and time again drivers improve their performance by switching to an automatic with a high stall converter.
Not to brag, but in my own car I switched from my M6 to a 700R4 with 3600 stall. What happened to me was that my times slowed down very slightly, and the mph dropped by about 1. The other side of the equation however was the starting line became much easier for me, launches became more consistent over many rounds, and it became far less difficult to deal with track preparation in regards to traction problems and bogging.
My most successful season was in a M6. That year I made it to the final round in 50% of my races at my local track and won most of them. However the wear and tear on the car steered me to the automatic and life became a lot easier.
When NHRA Pro Stock, in 1973, generally switched from standard to automatic two speed lencos, most drivers went quicker, some by as much as a full tenth of a second. The only driver known to slow down by switching to an automatic, quantifiably so, was Ronnie Sox, by a verified
.04
This is typically the case between automatics and manuals. "Everybody" thinks they can shift faster than an automatic, and it is true there is less parasitic power loss with a standard, so on paper a manual is quicker/faster. However after years at the strip and thousands of passes, I have seen time and time again drivers improve their performance by switching to an automatic with a high stall converter.
Not to brag, but in my own car I switched from my M6 to a 700R4 with 3600 stall. What happened to me was that my times slowed down very slightly, and the mph dropped by about 1. The other side of the equation however was the starting line became much easier for me, launches became more consistent over many rounds, and it became far less difficult to deal with track preparation in regards to traction problems and bogging.
My most successful season was in a M6. That year I made it to the final round in 50% of my races at my local track and won most of them. However the wear and tear on the car steered me to the automatic and life became a lot easier.
08-03-2007, 10:14 AM
#7
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Moore Oklahoma
Posts: 1,388
With an auto and performance stall-converter, the drive-train is pre-loaded when you stage. That pre-loaded drive-train then produces "much better" reaction times (RTs) than manuals. Not to mention the very consistant shifts and ETs (time-after-time).
Check-out out a bracket race, or NHRA class event with dial-ins and see how many manuals you see. Manuals in today’s drag racing are more rare than rocking horse manure!
WD
Check-out out a bracket race, or NHRA class event with dial-ins and see how many manuals you see. Manuals in today’s drag racing are more rare than rocking horse manure!
WD
08-03-2007, 08:13 PM
#9
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A properly set auto can be faster than a manual. Although the manual has less parasitic loss, power shifting without using the clutch still won't make it faster. An automatic also has the benefit of torque multiplication. That's one of the things a torque converter does. It usually has a 1.5 - 2.5 torque multiplier inside.
My powerglide only has one shift and won't shift by itself. I can slam my shifter forward and the shift is instantaneous. I can even install an electric or air solenoid and have it shifted electronically at the same rpm or time on every pass eliminating the human factor. I can use a transbrake with a 2 step and launch at the same rpm every time and by adjusting the 2 step I can easily try different launch rpms.
Now you mentioned a stock stalled auto. Yes that will be very sluggish shifting so comparing it to a manual isn't a fair comparison. You're also not going to find very many stock manual transmissions living too long if they're constantly powershifted. The factory manual transmissions also aren't going to take a huge amount of HP before they start breaking.
There's also a weight difference. Flywheel, clutch and manual transmission assembly is normally lighter then a typical automatic with torque converter. With all things being equal, the cars should also be the same weight.
Manual transmissions will always have the "fun factor" for street driving but anyone serious enough to drag race will have an auto unless you can afford a Lenco.
My powerglide only has one shift and won't shift by itself. I can slam my shifter forward and the shift is instantaneous. I can even install an electric or air solenoid and have it shifted electronically at the same rpm or time on every pass eliminating the human factor. I can use a transbrake with a 2 step and launch at the same rpm every time and by adjusting the 2 step I can easily try different launch rpms.
Now you mentioned a stock stalled auto. Yes that will be very sluggish shifting so comparing it to a manual isn't a fair comparison. You're also not going to find very many stock manual transmissions living too long if they're constantly powershifted. The factory manual transmissions also aren't going to take a huge amount of HP before they start breaking.
There's also a weight difference. Flywheel, clutch and manual transmission assembly is normally lighter then a typical automatic with torque converter. With all things being equal, the cars should also be the same weight.
Manual transmissions will always have the "fun factor" for street driving but anyone serious enough to drag race will have an auto unless you can afford a Lenco.
08-04-2007, 07:35 AM
#10
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Stock vs. stock, AFAIK the record stands at a 12.89 @ 108 for an '02 SS (M6) driven by Evan Smith (well, at least it's a published record). I don't think there are any autos that have done the same STOCK.
BUT, throw in a high stall converter, gears, I believe the auto will be capable of going quicker in the 1/4 mile. The trap speed may be slower, but the time will be quicker ... basically, all things being "equal" (including drivers, reaction times, etc.), the auto will win every time.
All that being said, there are F-bodies running around that can run 9's with a 6-speed. That's really fast. But, there aren't many. Most of the cars running that fast are autos.
BUT, throw in a high stall converter, gears, I believe the auto will be capable of going quicker in the 1/4 mile. The trap speed may be slower, but the time will be quicker ... basically, all things being "equal" (including drivers, reaction times, etc.), the auto will win every time.
All that being said, there are F-bodies running around that can run 9's with a 6-speed. That's really fast. But, there aren't many. Most of the cars running that fast are autos.
