gatorhead

I didn't get any responses in LT1 tech so I am gonna retry here
I have come across several of the threads, some are pretty outdated so I wanted to start a new one and ask some questions.

I have seen the cars run snake eyes with a high stall stock everything with dr's. That aside I know the tricks with the lift and duration, couple that with the high stall and voila you have a recipe for success. Now what makes me curious and please be as clear as you can for others that see this, does the everlasting duration of those cams make them unstreetable?

Now another question is there are many head porters out there and their packages that get pretty radical and charge quite a bit, and those packages don't come close to the same numbers as what you guys put down. It is verified by several sources that stock headed, unported heads flow well enough for a 10 sec pass. So with that in mind how much goes into the costs of fine tuning these heads? What is a good estimate cost wise for a person wanting to join a class such as this to get their feet wet?

Thanks for the advice and insight!

Mods not sure if this is the right place, but I was looking to stay LT1 specific and encompass transitional usage from strip to street.

Gear Jammer

I'm seeing several questions/ideas in your post. I'll try to address a few of them having a little experience with LT1 Stock Eliminator cars.

To begin with, I don't necessarily think it's the high duration numbers that make the cams unstreetable but the tremendous spring pressue and high rpm's these cams operate at. Are they streetable? Maybe. My question would be to you though why would you want to do that? If you're building an all-out stocker then being streetable wouldn't be a goal. If you want a quick street/strip car then a cam grinder could offer you something better since you wouldn't be restricted on the lift.

Concerning the heads, this is where they make a tremendous amount of power. What professional head prep guys are doing to them is nothing short of amazing. Staying within the parameters of what IHRA/NHRA allows (sometimes ... ) they do work that I couldn't even begin to understand. I will tell you two things simply: A car with a properly set of prepped heads in Stock Eliminator trim will outrun one with stock heads and secondly, you'll pay for them. Depending who you go to don't be surprised to spend $2,500 in parts and labor for a nice set of heads. If you're serious about running an LT1 Stock Eliminator car and being competitive, you better bring your checkbook to the table.

Check out racingjunk to see several competitive cars available turn key. Also, there are good sites such as class racer and the stock/superstock forum if you want to learn more about this.

And finally, I have a '94 Z28 that I took the LT1 out of just to get away from the other FI cars and will put a '71 carbed LT1 in it to run IHRA GT Stock Eliminator. It will fit naturally in GT/C with a 4-speed Jerico and has to run an 11.95 index.

cnorton

Guys,

I've driven/owned/built LT1 stockers for other racers plus my own LT1 Super Stocker during my retirement over the last ten-or-so years and I've competed in Stock Eliminator since 1963. From time-to-time I've answered questions on CamaroZ28.com regarding general LT1 and small block prep from the stand-point of Stock Eliminator. While both of you have a grasp of what's going on in a Stocker, 98% of the people who habituate this message board are interested in other approaches to drag racing. For example, it's sexier to lay down the money for a set of after-market castings with big runners than it is to massage a set of stock castings within the rules. You get a lot more mileage amongst the cruiser crowd if you can vent your nitrous lines or talk about your 396" stroker in a parking lot somewhere. A few times my posts have received responses that discount the achievements of Stockers because of the gear ratios and converter specs that are required to enter the world of competitive performance. I have no intention of denigrating someone else's idea of fun but it has occurred to me that most of the guys running Stock these days are older and spend more money than a kid who uses his LT1 car as a daily driver and wants to hit the drive-in on the way back from the strip on Test 'n Tune night.

The bottom line is, it's not hard to put an LT1 F-body in the tens. In fact, it's ridiculously easy. A motor that is capable of doing that costs between $8 and $10K starting with absolutely nothing. It is overbored about .060", has stock rocker arms, stock lifters and a stock throttle body but it also has a $2500 engine management system that needs some thoughtful programming. It has a $700 torque converter but a $4000 transmission. It has a 12 bolt housing with 4.88 or 5.13 gears. It has had body work done to open the wheel wells enough to accommodate Stocker tires. It has a legitimate roll bar, sub-frame connectors, and it weighs not much more than 3100 pounds less driver. The "frills" of everyday life such as A/C, sound system, power steering and brakes, and sound-deadening are in the dumpster. You could drive it on the street but if you're a Stock Eliminator racer, you wouldn't think of it any more than you'd use a high-dollar three-wood golf club to drive nails in a board. You can buy this car on www.Racingjunk.com for between $25 and $30K although some will run as high as $40K (you will spend at least that much to put a competitive Stocker on the track from scratch).

I'll make this offer to you. If you are interested in actually building a real Stocker, I'll walk you through it from A to Z by exchanging information on PM's or by e-mail. I'm doing it with several other people right now. No secrets withheld or charges for information. If you do it right, there's not hardly any way you can keep from running in the 10's. You will spend a boatload of money, meet a bunch of really great people, and enter a whole new world of intensely focused and dedicated racers. A few will be a-holes but, by and large, the percentage of those will be far less than in the general population.

Thanks for asking about Stock Eliminator. I've loved it for a long time and it has kept me from getting old and grouchy (mostly).

c

gatorhead

Thanks fellas for the replies. What has happened is that I have seen several posts here of late about these and people trying to incorporate that into street terms.
I have visited those websites and did some reading, but I will never claim that I begin to grasp what all is involved in stock eliminator.
I am well versed in the LT1 and the LT-1
Honestly I am not trying to build a S/E car. What I am after is the comparatives between those and todays street/strip machines. Aside from the "stock" tranny, these motors are really making some huge horsepower at low lift. Thats what I am focusing on. I have seen what, a hundred or so threads stating better results from baby cams than bottom of the page bigger cams and the ensuing arguments.
To make it even clearer, as I am aware that I am rambling on, today's porters and grinders are maxing out lift and hogging out heads and NOT achieveing the same numbers. So thats where it all comes down to, what are these heads doing differently than say an LE or AI head. From what I read there is no porting, just a great valve job, centering of the valve guides and truing up the angle, titanium retainers and cups. From that I got to thinking about the camshafts, if the stock head flows better, or I should say well enough to support 10's then what does that say about the lift of the cam in relation to the low lift flow of the head? Now maybe you see where I am going with this, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, there are plenty of folks making huge money off trying to do just that lol. I was thinking about having the heads done up like mentioned and putting some serious R&D into a smaller (lift) cam with more duration, a compromise between SE and aftermarket to get a street friendly cam with that kind of efficiency.

Sorry about the rambling, just my thoughts. I will take all and any advice you would like to give, and am interested in whatever it is you have to say. Thanks again!

Jack

cnorton

Jack, you have mail.

c

Javier97Z28

I don't get it.. are you trying to duplicate a stock eliminator setup because you think it's cheaper to build?

The LE/AI stuff is a bargain in comparison...

Here's a stock eliminator LS1...

http://www.racingjunk.com/post/13283...ns-Am-LS1.html

There's a reason that goes for $43k and a heads/cam LS1 that may even be faster goes for far less...

gatorhead

NO! LOL I am not trying to do that Javier. I want to see what aspects could be used from one to the other in transition if any at all.

I can't remember where I saw it but I was reading an article here recently about the LT1 head and the testing etc that went with it. It clearly showed that the head performed well enough to support the S/E class with an average hp of 465 on the motor vs the 285 (I guess that year model?) stock LT1. Utilizing the same lift as stock along with a lot more duartion to achieve such, however the low lifts were the key. Now in stark contrast "packages" are being offered with much higher lifts, and the heads are being ported to the fullest extent.
My argument would be further explained by comparing your LE setup vs a cam only (crane 227) that went 11's and was the fastest "cam only" car in the country, yet that cam is in all respects a baby cam. So what I am hinting at is I think the wheel being reinvented here distorted the picture somewhat. Just trying to gather some info and have thoughful conversation, no disrespect to you, your car, or LE!

Javier97Z28

I think what you're missing though is alot of these cars that are setting bolt on records, or are cam only... etc.. are generally speaking, very light cars. It's comparing apples to oranges.

Looking at a car like mine is a full weight, leather interior car. While it may no longer sound like a street car due to the xpipe and dumps.. in all appearances it is 100% street car weighing in at a porky 3540 race weight (with driver)

Strip 500lbs off my car and it'd be a very different picture.. not to mention my car has almost 95% stock suspension.

gatorhead

Apples to tangerines if that helps any. I have done ALOT of researching and T&T with various setups. There seems to be a common ground where you more or less see a plateau in peak hp and power when you compare the popular grinds being used today. They all have the same theme, High lift, long split durations. In the case of the S/E cars that role is reversed. 400 rwhp is achieved with several of the cams, so given a 20% drivetrain loss for sake of even numbers and nominal compasrison, then those cams make 480 fwhp basically. The SE cams are stock lift, more duration but make more hp? So why is everyone going so high with lift? Maybe that makes more sense to ya. BTW I completely understand what you are saying, I think I am failing to clearly communicate what I am digging at.

95firehawk

Great topic Gatorhead. So how exactly how much power does an S/E car make and weigh when compared to your typical street/strip car? How does it achieve the power that it does with the limitations imposed on it? (more specific than "square lobes" answers.) Can any of this tech be an economical or efficient transfer to the typical street/strip car?

All of these questions would probably do well and spark interest in the Advanced Tech section.

Javier97Z28

I'm no expert but I think if it was plausible for a street car we'd have seen it already.

There's alot of smart people doing this stuff.

cnorton

Stock Eliminator cars have the advantage of being prepped for a single purpose with no regard for streetability, social amenities, economy, or everyday practicality. Among the things that contribute to the performance are torque converters with stall characteristics inappropriate for street driving, gear ratios that make normal highway driving unrealistic, block preparation in search of ultimate ring seal that doesn't live very long, expensive transmission gear sets that add to the final drive ratio, double-adjustable shock absorbers on all four corners, careful weight distribution considerations, aftermarket engine management systems, etc.

It would be possible to drive a Stocker on the street and I'm sure that it has been done but it wouldn't take long for the things that make its performance unique to be compromised. Piston ring seal, for example, is so important that rings are routinely replaced within the equivalent of 100 miles of street driving. A legal set of cutting-edge technology rings for an LT1 can cost over $500 just for the parts. Add the normal costs of an engine rebuild. The engine itself can be built from scratch for around $10,000 if you have a good source for machine work and you do some of the work yourself. A competitive car with an average engine can be bought for close to $30K or a top level LT1 Stocker will bring up to $40K or even more.

gatorhead

I guess what I was really implying is the use of the heads. Seems to me that they support more hp than what they are truly given credit for.

I am aware of the major differences between the two (SE and stock) I really have a gut feeling their is a compromise worth looking at between the two.

Javier97Z28

But why.. for cost purposes? I don't understand your goal....

What's the "bad part" about the higher duration street setups you're talking about...

BTW.. my cam is a single pattern duration cam.

mdacton

ahh well thanks for the compliment