First, God has to build the bridge across the Pacific.

 

I don't think a four door G8 will have the same "must have" status as the GTO or Solstice.

The GTO was an icon. Demand was anticipated, leading to dealer markups.

The Solstice was a media and auto show hit. Demand was real, leading to dealer markups.

I think the mainstream will see the G8 as just another sedan.

 

Nothing.

 

Baloney. There's a bona fide reason some cars truly do command a price higher than MSRP, in the real world. It happens whenever the carmaker misjudges demand for the car. Take a look at the Toyota Prius - which edmunds.com has with an MSRP of 23,690 but a true market value price of 25,889. This is from ACTUAL sales data. I suppose dealers just dreamed that up too?

The difference between a good dealer and a crummy one in this area, is a good dealer will only ask for the prevailing market price, while a poor dealer has no clue as to the true worth and will often have unrealistic, 'ridiculous' markups on such cars. Wise buyers steer clear of the latter... ignorant buyers buy from them... and a third group (I'll call them the 'Whiners') cannot come to grips with the true street value of the car in question, so they wander around carping to everyone that dealers are only in it for the profit. Imagine that?

 

You cant be trying to equivocate a car like the prius thats proven to sell out, with a car like the G8 of which not one has yet been sold at any price.

I have little problem with dealers making money off a hot car, or any car. I do have a problem with them slapping 10k on it because someone, might at some point pay it and then they wont have to work for two weeks. Sounds like you agree.

 

Don't need to 'equivocate' them (equate them??). However I did successfully refute your notion that no car actually has a true street price above its MSRP.

Agree? Maybe. I agree dealers should have the right to post whatever price they want (without a bunch of whiners bleating about it being some kind of crime). I agree buyers should be savvy enough to spot a dealer who has no clue of what a car should be selling for, and avoid them. I agree that 'hot cars' should be allowed to deliver more profit, even if above MSRP... and that realistic buyers know a price is time-dependent, since part of the reason 'star' products cost more, is because they are new and unique.

 

Lutz will fly over and drop a bomb or two on any Pontiac Dealer who screws up the G8 launch.

 

One, I never said that; I didn't even imply that.

You brought that up, and yes its relevant, but Prius continously selling out is not the same as throwing a few thousand on a GTO before any are sold.

Agree? Maybe....[/QUOTE]

Yes, they have the right to charge whatever they want, and in a perfect world most people wouldn't pay it.

The complaint, or "whine" is that its at best shortsighted, and at worst, slow suicide to put huge markups on the occasional hot product when both you and the brand you depend on are already on thin ice.

 

So... the statements below don't qualify???
Hogwash. Again, witness the almighty Prius.

And BTW...
I dispute the idea Pontiac is on 'thin ice'. Pontiac has had plenty of successes and more on the way. The 97+ Grand Prix... recent Grand Ams... Solstice... now the G6, Grand Prix GXP, and the G8... Pontiac's got plenty of arrows in its quiver. People will need to be ready to pay robust (but still reasonable) prices for this rejuvinated brand with a rich and famous racing heritage. Cynics - can go pinch pennies in their Scion xWeakling

 

On which there are now incentives!

Oh, and Pontiac is totally on thin ice. Get out of the GM bubble -- try to find someone who has actually bought a Pontiac (other than a Solstice or GTO) in the last four years and who isn't eligible for some sort of GM discount. It's hard.

Good luck with those "robust" prices.

 

Qualify as saying the dealer is never justified in charging above MSRP? No it doesen't. Since you're confused, we were talking about big fat markups, you came in and drew a line in the sand and said, "all markups aren't big and fat". And Im not arguing with that, and I certainly wasn't arguing with it before you posted it.

Im getting the feeling your confusion arises because you're superimposing more complaints againsts dealers then the one being made, possibly because you've heard them before, possibly here, and dont like it. Which is fine, but again, not what I or anyone else was talking about.

Im not even going to get into this, I wouldn't call Cadillac "rejuvinated" just yet, let alone Pontiac... and you're a madman if you think most current car buyers are anything more than peripherally aware that "Grand Am", "Trans Am" etc, are races and at some point there were Pontiacs that shared anything more than a name with them.

 

I'm not 'confused'. Just stating facts that make you uncomfortable (too bad, so sorry.) And it is an ironclad FACT that some new cars demand and deserve street prices significantly above their list price. Don't you get it yet? Price is a function of TIME. New, hot designs are in very high demand at the outset. Dealers and sellers are perfectly entitled to set their price at the true market value for that point in time. Case in point: the new Ford GT. Read about its price history at http://www.answers.com/topic/ford-gt :

I do agree that poor dealers (not just Pontiac BTW ) tend to mark up new cars too much. Thanks to the internet and other modern tools, only a small proportion of buyers are fool enough to pay above the correct street price (I'd bet those folks are often also driven to get on internet forums to whine about it ). Too bad for them... but it's their own fault if they don't know the going price for a large purchase like a new car.

"Most" car buyers? "Most" buyers are getting silver sedans from Japan. This isn't about them at all. It's about buyers looking for a high-performance coupe, convertible or sedan, at a reasonable price, with a brand steeped in profound racing history. Pontiac buyers are more likely to understand the long record of success the brand portrays, and the successes it continues to enjoy. You seem to be in need of remedial history training, so here's some homework for you:

http://www.pontiacregistry.com/index...s&racing_id=30

 

I always had it.

What you don't seem to get, is that there is a difference between the "market" setting a market price, by people paying whatever it takes...

And the dealer creating an artificial demand by throwing 10k on the top while they have stock sitting on lots.

The Ford GT and Prius fall into the first catergory, the GTO and some others quite clearly do not. Words like "hot", "new" and "demand" only hold water as long as sales back them up, and with the GTO they did not. The difference is as clear as night and day.

I completely agree with your point, however it does not negate mine, even though you seem to be of the opinion that the situation you are describing is the only possible scenario.

Then as I said two post ago, we're in agreement.

You're missing the point. The question being raised is not "What is ok to pay?" because everyone here is not only aware of what should be paid but probably quite capable of paying less than that regardless of "hotness". The concern is not for the "small portion" of car buyers with more money then sense.

The concern is for GM. The concern is that the "large portion" of car buyers who know better than to pay a huge markup will decide that said car, and said brand, isn't worth the aggravation and walk right down the street to brand "B" and pay MSRP for a car that has none of the appeal, none of the performance of the "hot new model" but is priced right and does have a quality repuatation.

And there in the problem lies.

O Rly? Because Im pretty sure GM, let along Pontiac can't survive with out them.

1. I dont know what you'r definition of "high performance" is and Im not interested in arguing it.
2. I do know of three that fit any definition, and two of which are still languishing on lots, being GTO and T/A. Solstice predictably is not, but what percentage is that 20k cars a year of total sales?
3. Errr... Does "reasonable price" not conflict with everything you went on about above?
4. Pontiac has the youngest buyer demographic in GM and the highest percentage of female buyers in the industry. I highly doubt either of those groups is all that up on the 40 year old races that form their cars namesakes or drag racing buried somewhere on the speed channel. But feel free to disagree.

Its possible thats true of Pontiac "buyers", but that number isnt exactly exploding and of non buyers Im sure they understand the long record of less than success, such as this more than anything else.

 

If I went into a dealership and they played the "you can't touch this" game, I'd simply go to another brand. There's lots of choices out there these days.

I'm sure lots of people feel the same way, especially with Pontiac. It wasn't THAT long ago that they were peddling heavily cladded "ribbed for your pleasure" FWD "sporty cars." Consider the sales of the GTO, itself a decent car - how could it sell so poorly? Think about how many completely lousy cars outsold it.

 

I think that's an important point -- the easy route for GM would be to give Pontiac more cars like the G5 and the Vibe and position it as an entry-level youth brand.

Trying to give back Pontiac some level of performance reputation is actually pretty risky for GM, and if the G8 doesn't sell, they will probably stop trying. Hopefully the dealers understand this.