81Z28355

After following this board for awhile now I certainly see that the people here want the Camaro to return, I am one of them. This website is called camaroz28.com so of course we all want the car back. But the question that I haven’t seen answered is why did the production of the F-body stop? Why did the Mustang outsell the Camaro?

I currently own a 1981 Z28 the car has been completely torn apart and rebuilt, it doesn’t really qualify as a car I can compare to a Mustang, and of course the car is over 20 years old. I also have owned two third generation Trans Ams. My wife, who has owned Mustangs since she was old enough to drive, currently has a 1995 V6 5 speed coup. And as luck would have it my brother has a 1995 Camaro V6 5 speed coup. This seems like a perfect comparison.

Now what I have to say about both cars is entirely opinion and not facts. But as a loyal Chevrolet fan even I can start to see why the Mustang outsold the Camaro. The outward appearance of both cars is nice they are both good looking cars. The first thing that I notice as I walk around the outside of both cars is that the Camaro seems to sit a lot lower than the Mustang, not good if you live in Michigan. The Mustang has a 15” wheel on it with a narrow 205-65-15 and the Camaro has a 16” wheel with a lot wider tire 215-60-16. Both of these cars have the standard steel wheel with wheel cover. I have also been told if the Camaro had come with aluminum wheels the tires would be even wider. That’s not a good combination in the snow. The other outside observation that you can see is that the Mustang comes with 4 wheel disc brakes and the Camaro has rear drums. Now looking to the inside of the cars the interior in both is not exactly what I would call high quality, but hey these are both cars priced under $20 grand. The Camaro when you sit in it your rear end is on the ground, it’s not real easy to get in and out of especially if you are a woman with a skirt on. In the Mustang you sit a lot taller in the seat making it easier to get in and out of. Now if you look to the back seats neither car has much room so they about equal there. But look a little further back at the trunk and we have a clear winner the Mustang has a trunk that you can fill with groceries on your way back from the store and if you don’t want anyone to know what you have in the back of your Camaro you have to pull a retractable tarp over your cargo.

Taking both cars for a ride I could certainly see a big difference in the way the cars ride. The Camaro has almost a Z28 ride to it and the Mustang rides much smoother, but the Mustang has considerable more body roll in the corners. I am not sure most V6 buyers really care if the car is a super car in the handling department. Both cars were solid without any big rattles or squeaks. Just a note both cars have over 100,000 miles on them.

I have done maintenance and repairs to both cars and will have to say that the Mustang is a little easier to work on under the hood. Both cars have had there fair share of mechanical failures but at least the Camaro has its original engine; the Mustang is on number three. (Head gasket failure on the 3.8l)

I am not a marketing guru but I have noticed that most of the cars I see on the road are V6 cars and it seems like I see more women driving these cars than men. The differences that I noted would make the Mustang a nicer car for a woman looking for a back and forth to work and to the grocery store car. If this is the market that makes the Mustang outsell the Camaro maybe we need to make a V6 coupe that would appeal more to the young woman buyer. The other thing that I noticed is the horsepower of the V8 cars the Camaro destroys the Mustang here. But I would think that the Mustang would be cheaper to insure in V8 form.

The other thing that we have going against us is when ever I mention a Camaro at work the first thing out of there mouths is always isn’t that a RWD? That won’t be any good in the snow will it? How can we overcome this? I think the bottom line is, if we want a mass produced car that will be cheaper than a GTO to purchase, then the car needs to appeal to more than just us guys than can never have a car that’s too fast.

Just my opinion.

What do you guys think? How can we make the car a winner?

Chris 96 WS6

It was more than just sales numbers in the end. The last year the F-bodies sold over 70,000 units combined...not mustang numbers by any means but not too bad for clone coupes who's capital costs were paid for long ago...they were profitable if considered on their own merrits.

But the St. Therese plant was not...and probably therefore pulled the F-body profitability down in the gutter, and GM management wanted out of the plant, so the cars had to go as well.

It was a good dose of classic business issues (profitability, capital costs, etc.) combined with timing (the 4th gen had a long run and it was cheaper to end them, close the plant and move on than to build a costly new model at an already costly plant).

I think the removal of any significant advertising was purposeful and designed to better justify the closure of the plant.

CaminoLS6

In response to your title question only: the Camaro failed because GM failed it. It was not effectively advertised nor updated in a timely fashion. Mangement blew it.

guionM

Your question isn't unique & it's been gone over before.

Nonetheless, you came to the right place:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showt...+camaro+failed

http://www.cheersandgears.com/boards...TOPIC_ID=13154

I'll even add alot of my own observations as a previous Mustang owner:
1. Ford released the engine codes to their engines while GM treated it like a state secret. Therefore, Mustang got a tremendous leap in the aftermarket in the late 80s. Those stock forged internals also made aftermarket additions alot easier & cheaper than GM.

2. Mustang has a massive support network through Ford Performance, no fewer than 3 magazines devoted almost exclusively to Mustangs, and an aftermarket to die for.

3. Support from the very top & the realization that the Mustang isn't just a car, but an institution warranting a comittment to find a way to keep it going successfully. Something that doesn't exist with GM and Camaro.

4. The "engine-in-a-box" mentality. There seems to be a overabundance of people around Camaro who feel as long as the car melts more tire than the next car, it should fly off the shelves. Yet, the more user friendly Mustang which is plenty fast & plenty quick is the one that flew off the shelves.

Funny thing is, there are still alot of people who don't get it. Just breeze through old threads, and see how many people are still expressing the thought that the next Camaro must blow Mustang off the road, or be even faster than Corvettes to be successful..... some people never learn.

I like my Z28. It's quick, handles extremly well, has a much better A/C system, carries more cargo, and isn't as tail-happy as my old 5.0 was. But, the 5.0 was better assembled, more durable, waaaaaaay easier & cheaper to work on, alot easier & alot more "fun" to drive.

One area the Camaro has it all over the Mustang is in body construction. Go find a Mustang and a Camaro cut up in a junkyard. You'll see why Mustang 5.0s weighed as little as 3100 pounds.

guionM

Oh, and one more thing to consider.

The coupe market was a disaster in the late 80s, and everyone got hit badly. It's just that everyone else was based on a FWD sedan, and Camaro wasn't.

Camaro was the 2nd best selling sports coupe in the US till almost the very final months of production. Yes.... the 2nd best selling sports coupe!

It's not that Camaro did so bad.... it's that Mustang did so amazingly good.

0toinsanein5.4sec

guion in ur post about top 10 reasons it died (in the thread u linked to on this site) i agree with all of it except #2. "No replacement chassis available to base a new one on." The thing is is that there is a reason for that, so that may not be an "actual" reason, but the result of the other reasons if that makes sense

81Z28355

Thanks for all of the replies, I agree that the Camaro does not have to be the fastest car in the world to sell well. But what can we as Camaro lovers do or suggest to GM so the the next car will not be a failure. It would be great to have such a demand for the car before it even comes out, that in its first year of production is outsells the competition. And continues to do well for years later.

hp_nut

I'll go ahead repeat my take.

The Camaro failed because we all got practical in the '90s and 21st century. The Camaro gave up being a pony car and became a vette-lite sports car in '82. The Camaro outsold the stang in the '80s because sports cars were in and practical little pony cars were out. The stang almost got cancelled and turned into a Probe.

Then the '90s happened and the sports car was dead. All the successful *** sports cars of the '80s got cancelled, 300ZX, Supra, RX7. The Camaro didn't revert back to pony car. The stang got redesigned in '94 at just the right time to capitalize on Camaro's sales weakness.

Now if GM has gotten its head out of its ***, we'll get the CORRECT return of the pony car Camaro in ~ 2007 that SHOULD have happened 15 years earlier.

buschman

I agree with a lot that guionM said but I disagree with the sentiment that GM needs to produce a market friendly F-Body to beat the Mustang.

I think the next gen to be released needs to hit all the bases. First you need a seriously updated interior and exterior to match what the imports are putting out. Put a V6 that has power but BETTER fuel efficiency than the V8. The 3800's efficiency is a joke.

The base model V8 I think they got that down. The LS1 was a great 4.6 killer. Better fuel efficency than the 4.6, more displacement, more torque, and more horsepower. What more could you ask for? Just update to the LS2 to keep ahead of the speculated 05 GT(Mustang GT that is) power levels and keep the price very competitive.

It's this last part that my opinion differs from yours guionM. I think GM really needs to put more thought into their "special edition" models like the Firehawk, WS6, and SS. Sticker and graphic packages just aren't gonna cut it. The $4K extra I pay for my Firehawk goes right down the drain in resale(which only adds to the F-Bodies **** poor resale levels compared to the cobras). Cobras give yu a unique engine that is "technically" unavailable to anyone that doesn't have the right VIN.

Now with the 03 and 04 Cobra models you get a blower with a ton of easy modability. That right there is something the V6s and N/A V8s can talk **** in the parking lot about. That right there is bragging rights. That right there is what your enthusiasts are after! We want the fastest bone stock car catagory back on our side.

You build a car like that and you have something for everyone in your target demographic. Teenagers want the new look and parents are willing to shell out for the $21K V6 model. All your GM muscle car fans can eat up the LS2 Z, Formula, and Trans Am(althought you should probably choice formula OR Trans Am), and then finally you got the bragging rights model that appeals to your long time fans that have the money to spend and want to be stared at when they enter the parking lot.

Oh yeah, and try advertising this one :P Some of those early Firebird Commercials were badass! Much like the new GTO Comercials.

Mike

Ponykillr

I would say price mostly with a hint of 10 year old body. You cant sell the same car for 10 years and do nothing more to it but jack up the price to around $30000. Yes it was better every year but that does not sell cars. The prices went way too high and there was not enough change to get new buyers.