You know Pontiac wants a GTO. As optimistic as some people are that a new one is around the corner.....personally, I don't see one based on the NA Zeta in '07 or '08 or '09 or '10. After that it gets murky...but '11 or '12 may not be sure bets either.

Buick wants a RWD Velite-type convertible-coupe. I can't see any signs of that at all on the horizon.

Holden wants a Monaro, but without a business plan that includes NA exports, Holden can't afford one.

The problem with the current VZ coupe - as we know - is it will not meet US frontal crash standards next year and production will need to cease in about 10 months.


Sooo, I was just kinda thinkin'....what would it cost to bring the VZ coupe up to future US crash standards if Holden/Buick/Pontiac decided it might be something they'd want to do? I can't imagine more than 30,000-40,000 annual units sold between all three of them though.


Anyone with some knowledge to share on this, want to chime in?

 

My guess is that the investment necessary to come up with an appropriate product off of the VZ - meaning the changes required and the expense to make those changes - does not allow a suitable business case.

That being said, there are other options.

Kappa is by definition flexible due to the hydroformed rails, just like Corvette. But then you're talking about badge engineering, and a slightly larger Kappa might not be appropriate.

 

I think it would be a fantastic idea, as long as GM spent enough money really working on the redesigns of the GTO, and of course the original design of the Velite. Velite convertible starting at around 27k with standard leather and a 3.2 DOHC engine, I could see a HUGE market potential for that car. This car has some of the most beautiful and breathtaking styling on a concept car, this side of the Sixteen. Of course GTO could adopt a whole new styling theme for Pontiac, as the current twin port kidney grilles are getting a little old for me, a derivation of that Motor Trend/Autoweek theme would be great, as would a derivation of the original Firebird and GTO snout. Plain and simple, these cars have huge potential of attracting a lot more customers than the GTO currently does. With the right interior, right dynamics, and right engine choices, I can easily see the GTO, over time, helping to restore Pontiac's image, and eventually steal some customers from BMW. Yes----it's damned possible. They just need to design something beautiful yet in your face like Pontiac should be, and classical, something cool for the young 20-somehting and 30-somehting to get a kick out of cruising.

The ideas are there. It's all in the execution and design. GM would have to spend some serious dough. I don't care what platform it's done on. RWD coupes and sedans are Pontiac's and Buick's last chance at survival. They need something credible, with beautiful design, great dynamics [in the Buick more focus on isolation, but still something of a driver's car, in Lexus tradition], and great performance. But these cars drastically need to be stylish bombshells AND THE COMPLETE PACKAGE---only available once switching to RWD and the benefits of it.....

Ahhhhh,,, I know some will strongly disagree with me here. But RWD just speaks premium. AWD would be a necessary option. But many in the snow belt would find RWD with trac control is enough, I did, and so did everybody in the '60's and '70's and lots in the '80's too. RWD is just a necessity for where Buick and Pontiac need to go, beautiful styling, great dynamics, great rides, POWERFUL ENGINES. I'm not saying any one of these factors is enough to sell a car, but combined, and most importantly the COOL DESIGN factor, things could go really well.

I could see Pontiac and Buick coupes and verts with the V6 and V8 engines easily surpassing 100k units, and that would be a conservative estimate for the first few years, image building would help sales later on. Buick: build somehting as beautiful as the Velite, with that beautiful interior, price it reasonably (26-7k to start, fairly well loaded but still semi-basic for what a Buick should be), and they will come! Pontiac could use a dose of excitement to. Eventually the hope would be for Pontiac to turn to all RWD. I just don't see the need for so much FWD midsize sedans in GMs lineup, and not enough RWD. Why can't they just give us choice? Make Pontiac RWD affordable.....ah but a different discussion for later......sorry for the rant

 

The Buick and Pontiac were basically dependent on Holden , am I right saying that ? I remember reading an article about Holden , and when the topic of a new Monaro came up , it was basically said the Monaro is going away for awhile . To the ring of wanting to preserve the name and keep desireablity present " the Monaro is gonna go away for awhile and go out with dignity "

Could it simply be just Holdens lack of interest in a coupe at the moment that kills any further development in regulating a version for the US . If Holden really wants to keep the Monaro name away for awhile , wouldnt it just burn the locals if a GTO and a Buick coupe were being shipped overseas .

Just thinking a loud

Maybe the lack of GTO will magically at the last minute create a Firebird With the whole retro 05 stang , a camaro a couple years later , wouldnt a firebird popping outa nowhere be a nice modern day repeat of the mid 60's .

 

I don't think it is a lack of intrest on Holden's part but more a lack of time and money. Their plate is a little full with the launch of VE and I don't think they have the time or money to spend on the soon to be replaced VZ cars.

 

My lack of interest opinion was based off a quote from Holdens president ( I forget his name ) saying they wanted the Monaro to be absent for a uncertain amount of time .

 

Denny Mooney?

 

The thing about the Monaro is, if the future frontal impact standards weren't a factor, it would make an elegant solution to an ongoing GTO model - really indefinitely.

I mean, in my simple minded view, all it needs is to make it pass those damned standards. That certainly can't cost more than developing a whole new car. Or might it be cheaper to base it on VE, which already passes all US impact standards?

At any rate, if you want to see a GTO or Velite or Monaro before next decade, Holden will be the key.

 

I've said this before more than a few times, and I'll say it again:

There are NO frontal crash standards coming up beyond the "Smart" passenger airbags that take effect September 1, 2006.

FMVSS No. 208 is a phase in for airbags that protect occupants who are unbelted, and (of all things) kids loose in the front seat. It started with the 2004 model year, and must be complete by the end of the 2006 model year run.

Important quotes:

"...The upgrade was designed to meet the goals of improving protection for occupants of all sizes, belted and unbelted, in moderate to high speed crashes, and of minimizing the risks posed by air bags to infants, children, and other occupants, especially in low speed crashes...

...The rule also included a requirement that, beginning in 2007, the 50th percentile adult dummy must meet the injury criteria when subjected to a 35 mph belted rigid barrier crash...

...In the 2005-2009 time frame, the Agency will continue to pursue research to advance occupant protection in frontal crashes, including monitoring real world air bag performance; evaluating dynamic out of position air bag suppression systems; evaluating advanced occupant sensors; evaluating advanced seat belts, adaptive pretensioners, and load limiters; exploring crash test procedures with pre-impact braking; developing and evaluating dummy enhancements driven by new sensor/restraint technologies...
[/quote]

I have access to new federal standards regarding automobiles, and anyone can find out about new or upcoming vehicle standards themselves by simply going to the NHTSA website.

There is NO new crash standards on the immediate horizon thats going to effect the GTO outside of technology related items!!

The plan simple truth about the GTO's planned departure is very very simple:

GTO is at the end of it's model run. That's all.

1. It was scheduled to run 3 years. It rand 2004, 2005, and now 2006.
2. Holden is ending production of Monaro/GTO when they planned to. It's part of their plant plans.
3. Pontiac planned to have a replacement GTO ready in 2007 for the 2008 model year, and that plan was cancelled and no changes were made regarding the current GTO's production schedule.

GM has the option of installing these new airbags and sensors in the current GTO, but it would have to run a number of years to make it worthwhile
GM EXPECTS TO HAVE A REPLACEMENT OUT IN LESS TIME THAN THIS.

15,000 cars per year at a wholesale price of just $28-30K for an additional couple of years, doesn't make a great financial case to extend a "old" car.



On the other item.....it takes 4 years to design a car from a blank piece of paper.... and someone is selling you that it's going to take 5, 6, or 7 years to create a car from a project that's already mostly done.

Whoever is feeding this information to you is on crack.

And you can tell him/her I said so... for what it's worth.

It takes 18 months after greenlight to get a car on the streets, the VE was engineered to be US regulation compatible, and the coupe was part of Holden's redesign of the VE line.

Even if GM decides to go with the North America chassis on the coupe, some people are going to eat alot of crow thinking 2010MY or later.


....BTW: Velite WON'T be based on the "Zeta".

 

Well, if all it comes down to are afew sensors, then I'd say it's pretty dumb not to continue production. Maybe we could all pitch in. Holden said afew months ago it would continue VZ coupe production as long as Pontiac could make a case for it. Well, if it's down to a couple of sensors, Pontiac should step up.

Don't confuse what I'm saying about a future GTO with the 5th gen Camaro. When "old" Zeta was cancelled so was GTO. Camaro rose from the ashes on "new" Zeta, it remains to be seen what will happen with GTO. Even if approved at some future date, GTO is certainly not coming on the new platform before Camaro. Do the math.

As far as Velite and Zeta, yeah I know. Ann Asensio told us so in an interview last year. But frankly, I see no Velite on the horizon anyway - Zeta or otherwise.

 

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/3...upeside0ja.jpg

Which Holden is this a clay of?


From this thread...

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/s...557#post386557

 

What I never understood...is if all the work is basically done on a VE GTO...why not just make it? I mean...you have the uber flexible production line there (where you just laid a shift off)...you have the platform that was engineered from the beginning to accept the coupe...and you have the importation process already setup. After the money Holden has invested in VE...it would be stupid not to make the coupe that was already in the business plan.

The only real question is...did they intend to make the VE Coupes here...or in Australia...and if they did intend to make them here...how does the business case look for shifting production back to Oz (since it seems certain no VE cars will be made here)? There are some issues still with the exchange rate I think could be an obstacle.

All in all...I see the GTO having a production hole of 18-24 months at the most. There is too much work done, and the coupe market changes too fast for them to wait longer. If GM is smart...they will annouce that a new car is coming when they offically announce the end of the current GTO. Just cancelling the car with no mention of the future will only add to the perception some have of the GTO as a failure.

 

I suspect that the VE/Zeta GTO never got that far along. Sure there were design excercises and lots of engineering math....but that's about it.

And just before it was cancelled, the VE/Zeta GTO had already been pushed back to '09/'10.

 

How much work would need to be done even if that was not the case....I can't imagine it takes years to make a sedan a coupe...especially when that was the intention from the beginning.

 

I don't know, I suppose it depends on your priorities. Holden was able to make a Monaro off the Commodore pretty quickly and cheaply. But Holden's engineering resources are stretched pretty thin right now, with the VE Commodore and it's variants rolling out soon. Plus they don't have lots of cash to throw around either. That's why I'm focusing in on the possibility of salvaging the VZ coupe for NA certification.