SFireGT98

I couldnt agree more!

rlchv70

And you should call that book: "All Camaros have T-tops".

Randy

krazzycowgirl

Not all Camaros have T-tops. Up until the late 70s No Camaro had t-tops

guionM

It's all about money.

Also, realize that for each person like you who went to a Pontiac showroom for the Firebird, there's probally 100 others who go to Pontiac showrooms to check out a Grand Prix, Grand Am, Vibes, or Sunfire. More people bought Azteks than Firebirds in 2002, and on the average, each Pontiac dealer sold about 1 Firebird per month. The new G6 has dealers more hot & bothered because they know they'll sell them by the boatloads.

In other words, don't think for a magic moment that your local Pontiac dealer misses your absence. In reality, you are an afterthought.

It's the sales of these other cars & trucks that gets us what we want. The phenominal sales of the 300 & Magnum are financing and providing a platform for a Chrysler performance coupe. If Camaro was based on a existing RWD car that provided the volume, could share assembly line space, or dissipitated the development cost, chances are it would still be around.

Ford is embracing the Mustang now only because GM abandoned the market & Bill Ford has owned one from each year since 1982. It also helps that Mustang broke 200,000 cars for the 2000 model year.

Ford tried to turn the Mustang into the Probe in '89, planned to let it die in 1992, then spent most of the 1990s satisfied with keeping up with older Camaros. Under Jac Nasser initially planned the new Mustang to be a high-tech sports coupe with DEW suspension parts, right down to the 3.9 V8 and satillite navigation. So don't think Ford has always had Mustang up on a pedastal. It either was set to die or change it's formula no fewer than 4 times in 10-15 years.

GM's F-body, especially the 4th gen, was in a unusual situation. It was a unique chassis that was shared with no other car, so could not spread costs or share assembly lines with any other GM vehicle. It was made in a plant capable of twice or more the capacity of what F-bodies were produced, making it's plant one of the most underutilized in North America. It was made by a company that until the past 2 years was going front wheel drive almost across the board.

Finally, cars that don't make profits don't live, regardless as to their heritage. In the enthusiast community, there's the bizzare and completely wrong misconception that cars must made because of so called "heritage", also that the enthusiast community alone buys enough cars to force carmakers to produce certain cars. Neither is true.

Oldsmobile had more heritage than any other car in the world short of Daimler Benz. But throughout most of the 90s, even with billions spent on new exclusive chassis & engines, and the best quality of any US car maker, you could still almost count the number of all Olds buyers annually with 5 digits.

Camaro had a whole host of things against it in the end. No matter how much of a Camaro fan you are, when you see the list of reasons it died, you begin to admire that the people behind it managed to keep it going as long as they did, and that they got GM to even spring [/i]anything[/i] for the Anniversary Camaro (little as it is) at all.

Mustang is here to a large degree by accident and luck, not specific planning and devotion of the Ford Motor Company (how many other car companies are run by a family member who happens to be a big fan of a particular car?).

The F-body became everything the hard core enthusiast wanted. However, that wasn't enough by a long shot.

Z284ever

I don't agree with the "everything the hardcore enthusiast wanted" part.


I know lots of "hard core enthusiasts" who defected from Camaro because it was precisely NOT everything they wanted.

guionM

Allow me to rephrase:

"The hard core Camaro enthusiast".

jg95z28

I'd have to argue that only 33% of Camaros have T-tops... er, well at least only one of my three does.

Z284ever

Unfortunately.....I even meant alot of hardcore Camaro enthusiasts.

Big Als Z

smaller? I didnt say use the Monaro/GTO and slap some bow ties on it, but in basic size, thats how I would like it to be. Not in weight, or in style. Any smaller then the GTO, and we are looking at 2 seater.
The Camaro needs to be more civilized. Its called evolution, like the GTO took. Its not going to go far when its a low-slung super car. Mustang is more of an upright sedan based coupe, and look how that sells. GM needs to get back to the equation of this being an actual car that people will drive daily, and how its NOT a Corvette for weekend fun.
Biggest downfall is that the Camaro went from sporty coupe to sports car. It wont make it if it goes back to teh low slung, Corvette inspired feel. Remember about the v6 drivers that just want a stylish car to drive around in. This is the CORE market for the Camaro. Most of the sales need to be from V6 cars, and if it follows along with the 4th gen, sales will be well below what GM would want.
The Camaro needs to feel more like the GTO then the 4th gen.

Z284ever

Many years ago, I was at a car event and noticed some representatives there from Chevrolet. It had always been my primary show-going doctrine, to trap these poor souls in at least 30-45 min of conversation. I always felt that they needed to be "educated" on my thoughts on Camaro.

During one of these sessions a couple of late teen girls walked by. The Chevy rep said, "See those little girls?.....That's who needs to like Camaro."

He was right.

And those "little girls" want a sporty, stylish car...no bigger than an SN-95 Mustang. They DON'T want a car the size of mom's Toyota Avalon.....that wouldn't be very cool.

There are lots of little and big boys too...with more money to spend......looking for a Camaro no bigger than an SN-95 Mustang as well.

GTO sized is just right for GTO...it's alittle too big for a modern Camaro.

Meccadeth

I'm pretty sure there are MANY little girls that are into bigger cars as well, considering how stylish SUV's are to them right now.

These little girls you speak of are into Celica's, Neons, Civics....you want a Camaro THAT small? Go to the next generation Fiero board or something. It totally blows me away that you could even REMOTELY consider that a sport compact Camaro would be a good thing.

Like somebody else mentioned in another thread, if the Camaro wears its size in a very graceful way (like the 4th gen for instance) then theres absolutely nothing wrong with that. Its bigness didn't kill the Camaro, it is very easy to park a Camaro in a parking lot. But a compact Camaro would just be cheesey IMHO. One of the main things I liked about the Fbody were how intimidating they look. No sport compact can look intimidating, just different variations of "cute." (Vauxhall Lightning being the only exception I've seen.) These little girls want a small cute car. Do you want a "cute" Camaro?

A GTO dimensioned Camaro would be equally as tragic :blah: A Camaro HAS to be low slung, a GTO is upright and very civilized. A Camaro needs to be able to stand out from a crowd of cars, unlike a GTO.

guionM

The Chevy rep Charles spoke with actually get's it!

It would be incredibly dumb of GM to look at the Ford's Mustang sales of 130-200,000 annually the past 5 years, look at the coupes younger buyers are purchasing, the correlation between % of women buyers in this market & the success of a car, and then go right back to the same design philosophy that killed off Camaro sales (Dropped nearly 50% in 1996... before GM decided to drop the car!).

The coupe market did a major shift in the mid 90s, and the F-body was left in the lurch. In 98, it got a restyling with even more horsepower. Didn't help. Mustang wasn't affected, and in 2000 sold 218,000 to Camaro's 45,000.

I said it in another thread, it's all about money. GM is a business 1st and foremost. If the sport coupe market is going in favor of slightly smaller coupes, then that's where Camaro is going to go, while keeping it's identity of V8 and rear drive.

GM isn't going to spend hundreds of millions (or even a billion) dollars to bring out a car that isn't going to be very profitable to them and sell in competitive numbers.

The 4th gen Camaro is dead. The 5th gen is going to be about as far removed from it as it can be & still be called Camaro. It won't be "Neon sized". But the original Camaro followed the original Mustang's formula. History is about to repeat itself.

Z284ever

AH HA! So you admit it! You want Camaro to remain the size of an SUV.



Why is it that every time I say Mustang sized...you read it as Civic sized? One of the things that makes sporty cars...ummm....sporty, are their compact mass and tidy dimemsions



Please stop...you're killing me. Easy to park? Is that what you think this is about?




Somewhere between the size of a an Explorer and the size of a Civic.....there is a whole other segment. You do realize that there is something in between....don't you? Do you think an SVT Cobra is a "cute" little girl's car? How about a Mach 1? How about a 1st gen Camaro? How about an M3? How about a Supra Turbo?.......all little girls' cars???

WERM

4th gen camaro easy to park? I think it must have been the worst car to park I've ever driven. Anytime anyone drove it the first time, they'd say something like "jebus, how do you park this thing?" In fact, my wife refused to drive the thing.

Big Als Z

Im not saying make it a GTO, but if I was in charge of 5th gen development, on a scale of 4th gen to GTO, id be more on the GTO side of teh scale, then 4th gen side. The GTO isnt really that big of a car. I belive its smaller then the 4th gen. So saying dont want something as big as the GTO means that the 4th gen was HUGE.
Make it more GTO like, and less 4th gen like. Make it more civilized. If its another super-car wanna be, I am not gunna be happy.