What's after VE for Holden?
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From: Melbourne, Australia
What's after VE for Holden?
There are various rumours circulating on Australian boards wrt the future of local manufacturing in Australia, particularly post VE.
Anyone have any inside info regarding this? Is Holden safe as an Australian manufacturing subsidiary of GM for years to come or will Holden be importing more and more vehicles (e.g LWB) from places like China?
And/Or will GM eventually source Zeta vehicles from China?
The rumours are quite unsettling!
Anyone have any inside info regarding this? Is Holden safe as an Australian manufacturing subsidiary of GM for years to come or will Holden be importing more and more vehicles (e.g LWB) from places like China?
And/Or will GM eventually source Zeta vehicles from China?
The rumours are quite unsettling!
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Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
My understanding is that the Holden VZ line is going to be boxed up and sent to China. Korea was also an option, but I think that's changed.
The VE shares a number of structral parts with the VZ. To a large extent,the VE is a VZ with a revised IRS and a relocated fuel tank. The VE started out as a strictly Holden design, then GM wanted the car changed to be sold here in the US as well. Seems the end result is that Holden's way of doing things, while hella quick and inexpensive, didn't mesh with the home office's (GM-NA) laborous and expensive way of doing things. When the dust cleared, Holden was left with a car that is far more complex and expensive to make than the VZ is, yet can't sell for a higher price. That's why Holden is in serious trouble now.
Holden has had to cut a massive amount of employees, after doing a massive amount of hiring just a couple of years ago in preparation of assembling more cars for the US and other countries. The VE has been delayed till year's end. Holden has had their concept car budget eliminated. Every decision has to be routed through GM-NA, and GM-NA doesn't understand why Holden needs a station wagon instead of an SUV, or a Ute instead of a small pickup truck (NOTE: both options are designed to favor US made SUVs and pickups over Australian made wagons and "El Caminos").... in short, Holden's in hell right now.
As for what comes after the VE, it now seems the VE is going to be a short lived car. GM is pushing to standardize all volume RWD cars and their sourcing. Holden makes alot of their own parts and assemblies and has direct control over quality. GM-NA believes that outsourcing is cheaper, especially using large volume to control price. Assembly process is going to be standardized as well. I would expect the VE to die early next decade (if that long), and replaced by a version of the RWD car we're getting here.
What GM is attempting to do is globalize their car programs, but Holden is losing what made it successful: the ability to do alot with a little very quickly and effectively. While Holden is incorperated into the rest of GM, their unique vehicles, manufacturing facilities, and their personality is at high risk.
The way I see it, in 5 years, Holden is going to be a GM division selling badge engineered cars, trucks, and SUVs.
The VE shares a number of structral parts with the VZ. To a large extent,the VE is a VZ with a revised IRS and a relocated fuel tank. The VE started out as a strictly Holden design, then GM wanted the car changed to be sold here in the US as well. Seems the end result is that Holden's way of doing things, while hella quick and inexpensive, didn't mesh with the home office's (GM-NA) laborous and expensive way of doing things. When the dust cleared, Holden was left with a car that is far more complex and expensive to make than the VZ is, yet can't sell for a higher price. That's why Holden is in serious trouble now.
Holden has had to cut a massive amount of employees, after doing a massive amount of hiring just a couple of years ago in preparation of assembling more cars for the US and other countries. The VE has been delayed till year's end. Holden has had their concept car budget eliminated. Every decision has to be routed through GM-NA, and GM-NA doesn't understand why Holden needs a station wagon instead of an SUV, or a Ute instead of a small pickup truck (NOTE: both options are designed to favor US made SUVs and pickups over Australian made wagons and "El Caminos").... in short, Holden's in hell right now.
As for what comes after the VE, it now seems the VE is going to be a short lived car. GM is pushing to standardize all volume RWD cars and their sourcing. Holden makes alot of their own parts and assemblies and has direct control over quality. GM-NA believes that outsourcing is cheaper, especially using large volume to control price. Assembly process is going to be standardized as well. I would expect the VE to die early next decade (if that long), and replaced by a version of the RWD car we're getting here.
What GM is attempting to do is globalize their car programs, but Holden is losing what made it successful: the ability to do alot with a little very quickly and effectively. While Holden is incorperated into the rest of GM, their unique vehicles, manufacturing facilities, and their personality is at high risk.
The way I see it, in 5 years, Holden is going to be a GM division selling badge engineered cars, trucks, and SUVs.
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Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
Originally Posted by guionM
The VE shares a number of structral parts with the VZ. To a large extent,the VE is a VZ with a revised IRS and a relocated fuel tank. The VE started out as a strictly Holden design, then GM wanted the car changed to be sold here in the US as well. Seems the end result is that Holden's way of doing things, while hella quick and inexpensive, didn't mesh with the home office's (GM-NA) laborous and expensive way of doing things. When the dust cleared, Holden was left with a car that is far more complex and expensive to make than the VZ is, yet can't sell for a higher price.
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Joined: Mar 2005
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
Well it's a disappointment to read guionM's post... and that's putting things mildly. It cuts deep.
Compare what Holden has managed on a shoestring budget and compare to the GM's failure to get SAAB both profitable and relevant in this global automotive world... I'd say Holden is getting raped!
I hope GM don't think that Chinese made Holdens will be just as desirable. I, for one, will baulk at buying Holden if I know that Toyota are making vehicles locally.
On the subject of Toyota, why is it that Japanese companies are able to be sustain their growth and resist pressures from cheap labour countries like China and India, yet GM is looking to do away with regional manufacturing and continue to invest heavily in China?
Having said that, is this part of GM's plan to make Chevrolet truly global, including Australia? Will the Holden brand even exist?
Compare what Holden has managed on a shoestring budget and compare to the GM's failure to get SAAB both profitable and relevant in this global automotive world... I'd say Holden is getting raped!
I hope GM don't think that Chinese made Holdens will be just as desirable. I, for one, will baulk at buying Holden if I know that Toyota are making vehicles locally.
On the subject of Toyota, why is it that Japanese companies are able to be sustain their growth and resist pressures from cheap labour countries like China and India, yet GM is looking to do away with regional manufacturing and continue to invest heavily in China?
Having said that, is this part of GM's plan to make Chevrolet truly global, including Australia? Will the Holden brand even exist?
Last edited by SSbaby; Feb 28, 2006 at 05:55 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
Originally Posted by SSbaby
Having said that, is this part of GM's plan to make Chevrolet truly global, including Australia? Will the Holden brand even exist?
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Don't worry SSbaby, Holden is going to be around for a loooong while. There's a reason much of the Camaro/rear wheel drive team is in Australia as we type...
But it gets confusing joining all the dots (for me anyhow).
All this chatter about Chinese Holdens... Anyway, I'm keen on making sure my next car is a Camaro, preferably with a Chevy badge.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
This is 9 months old but worth reading...
Holden looks for overseas production drive
By Ian Porter
May 10, 2005
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It won't be too long before Holden starts making more cars overseas, with Korea named as highly likely.
Holden and parent company General Motors are still working on a plan to cut complexity at the Elizabeth assembly plant in South Australia by putting the Commodore platform into production in another country.
The plan received a major setback a month ago when GM, under financial pressure because of sagging sales in America, cancelled the US introduction of the so-called Zeta platform (a car's basic body structure) designed and developed by Holden.
But Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney is certain the Zeta platform will go into production outside Australia.
"Our architecture will be built somewhere else in the world within the next two years," Mr Mooney said. "There will be an expansion of Zeta products."
Holden exports to more than 20 countries, including sending the high-profile Monaro coupe to the US, and Mr Mooney said the pessimistic conclusions drawn about Zeta, Commodore and Holden after the GM announcement were untrue.
The creation of another production base for Zeta/Commodore is important because the Elizabeth plant is on the verge of becoming dysfunctional as it struggles to produce about 30 variations of the Commodore.
Advertisement
Advertisement"We might have too many models for one assembly plant because we have a lot of export business," Mr Mooney conceded.
"We're proud we can do that but there is a line where, for the added 1000 cars, you have to ask, is it worth the effort?"
The complexity got Holden into deep trouble earlier this year when an upgrade of the production line, necessitated by the need to make the current model and the new model side by side for a time, went badly wrong.
"We probably took on more than we should have," Mr Mooney admitted. "We are still having challenges."
A second Zeta production base would allow Holden to swap models and simplify its production line.
Mr Mooney would not be drawn on where the second plant might be, but Korea would be a likely location, and not only because Holden holds a 43 per cent stake in GM Daewoo Automotive Technology.
Our architecture will be built somewhere else in the world within the two years.
DENNY MOONEY, Holden MDHolden recently launched the Statesman luxury car in Korea with a Daewoo badge and is also selling the Statesman in China as the Buick Royaum.
As well, Mr Mooney said the Holden engine plant would in future be exporting V6 engines to both Korea and Europe.
While the Daewoo version is only slightly modified, the China model has been changed a lot to make the rear seat area much more luxurious as Chinese owners will not be doing the driving. Another factor in favour of making the Statesman offshore is that projected sales volume in China is "four to five times" local sales.
"It could dwarf our Statesman volume here," Mr Mooney said.
He would not be drawn on whether Elizabeth would be further expanded.
By Ian Porter
May 10, 2005
Page Tools
Email to a friend Printer format
It won't be too long before Holden starts making more cars overseas, with Korea named as highly likely.
Holden and parent company General Motors are still working on a plan to cut complexity at the Elizabeth assembly plant in South Australia by putting the Commodore platform into production in another country.
The plan received a major setback a month ago when GM, under financial pressure because of sagging sales in America, cancelled the US introduction of the so-called Zeta platform (a car's basic body structure) designed and developed by Holden.
But Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney is certain the Zeta platform will go into production outside Australia.
"Our architecture will be built somewhere else in the world within the next two years," Mr Mooney said. "There will be an expansion of Zeta products."
Holden exports to more than 20 countries, including sending the high-profile Monaro coupe to the US, and Mr Mooney said the pessimistic conclusions drawn about Zeta, Commodore and Holden after the GM announcement were untrue.
The creation of another production base for Zeta/Commodore is important because the Elizabeth plant is on the verge of becoming dysfunctional as it struggles to produce about 30 variations of the Commodore.
Advertisement
Advertisement"We might have too many models for one assembly plant because we have a lot of export business," Mr Mooney conceded.
"We're proud we can do that but there is a line where, for the added 1000 cars, you have to ask, is it worth the effort?"
The complexity got Holden into deep trouble earlier this year when an upgrade of the production line, necessitated by the need to make the current model and the new model side by side for a time, went badly wrong.
"We probably took on more than we should have," Mr Mooney admitted. "We are still having challenges."
A second Zeta production base would allow Holden to swap models and simplify its production line.
Mr Mooney would not be drawn on where the second plant might be, but Korea would be a likely location, and not only because Holden holds a 43 per cent stake in GM Daewoo Automotive Technology.
Our architecture will be built somewhere else in the world within the two years.
DENNY MOONEY, Holden MDHolden recently launched the Statesman luxury car in Korea with a Daewoo badge and is also selling the Statesman in China as the Buick Royaum.
As well, Mr Mooney said the Holden engine plant would in future be exporting V6 engines to both Korea and Europe.
While the Daewoo version is only slightly modified, the China model has been changed a lot to make the rear seat area much more luxurious as Chinese owners will not be doing the driving. Another factor in favour of making the Statesman offshore is that projected sales volume in China is "four to five times" local sales.
"It could dwarf our Statesman volume here," Mr Mooney said.
He would not be drawn on whether Elizabeth would be further expanded.
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Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Chicagoland IL
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
And from today...
Football, Meat Pies, But Cars From Asia
Joshua Dowling
01 March 2006
A Commodore made in Korea? It's possible, according to General Motors' head of global product development, Bob Lutz, who oversees Holden's Australian operations from head office in Detroit.
Speaking candidly at a preview to the Geneva motor show yesterday, Mr Lutz expressed grave concerns for the viability of the Australian car manufacturing industry if import tariffs remained low and the Australian dollar remained strong.
GM owns Korean brand Daewoo and in October 2002 Holden became the biggest stakeholder in the company, buying a 42 per cent share.
Holden is already increasing the number of small and medium cars it imports from Korea; the new Barina is a rebadged Daewoo Kalos and the Holden Viva is a Daewoo Lacetti.
By the middle of this year Holden will also begin selling a Korean-made four-wheel-drive to compete with the Ford Territory after the locally made Holden Adventra (an off-road version of the Commodore wagon) failed to meet sales expectations.
While Mr Lutz stressed that Holden had no plans to close its vehicle assembly factory in Adelaide (the same city in which Mitsubishi is struggling to survive) he said the Australian industry was "at risk" of being uncompetitive with its nearby Asian neighbours, which have lower labour costs.
"I tell you the Australian manufacturing industry is in a difficult situation right now," Mr Lutz told the Herald. "If the Government doesn't do something about it or the Australian dollar doesn't weaken, then I'm not sure what's going to happen. The Australian market really is at risk."
He said that while there were no plans at this stage to build the Commodore in Korea "it is possible and it is feasible" to do so.
He said it was more likely that production of the Commodore - Australia's best selling car for the past 12 years - would remain in Australia for now but that other locally made Holdens which sell in relatively small numbers domestically but which are strong sellers in other countries (such as the Statesman luxury sedan), could be assembled in Korea.
"The new Statesman is going to be exported from Australia to China, Korea and the Middle East," Mr Lutz said. "If the export volume is strong, and it makes sense to build the Statesman at [GM's Korean division], then why not do it?"
Local car makers Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi are struggling against the weight of imports. In 2001 imported vehicles accounted for 58.9 per cent of all new-car sales in Australia. In January 2006, imported vehicles accounted for 81.1 per cent of all new-car sales.
Japan is the single biggest source of imported vehicles (41.1 per cent in January 2006, according to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries) but Korean imports are growing, from 7.6 per cent of new-car sales in January 2005 to 9.9 per cent in January 2006.
Football, Meat Pies, But Cars From Asia
Joshua Dowling
01 March 2006
A Commodore made in Korea? It's possible, according to General Motors' head of global product development, Bob Lutz, who oversees Holden's Australian operations from head office in Detroit.
Speaking candidly at a preview to the Geneva motor show yesterday, Mr Lutz expressed grave concerns for the viability of the Australian car manufacturing industry if import tariffs remained low and the Australian dollar remained strong.
GM owns Korean brand Daewoo and in October 2002 Holden became the biggest stakeholder in the company, buying a 42 per cent share.
Holden is already increasing the number of small and medium cars it imports from Korea; the new Barina is a rebadged Daewoo Kalos and the Holden Viva is a Daewoo Lacetti.
By the middle of this year Holden will also begin selling a Korean-made four-wheel-drive to compete with the Ford Territory after the locally made Holden Adventra (an off-road version of the Commodore wagon) failed to meet sales expectations.
While Mr Lutz stressed that Holden had no plans to close its vehicle assembly factory in Adelaide (the same city in which Mitsubishi is struggling to survive) he said the Australian industry was "at risk" of being uncompetitive with its nearby Asian neighbours, which have lower labour costs.
"I tell you the Australian manufacturing industry is in a difficult situation right now," Mr Lutz told the Herald. "If the Government doesn't do something about it or the Australian dollar doesn't weaken, then I'm not sure what's going to happen. The Australian market really is at risk."
He said that while there were no plans at this stage to build the Commodore in Korea "it is possible and it is feasible" to do so.
He said it was more likely that production of the Commodore - Australia's best selling car for the past 12 years - would remain in Australia for now but that other locally made Holdens which sell in relatively small numbers domestically but which are strong sellers in other countries (such as the Statesman luxury sedan), could be assembled in Korea.
"The new Statesman is going to be exported from Australia to China, Korea and the Middle East," Mr Lutz said. "If the export volume is strong, and it makes sense to build the Statesman at [GM's Korean division], then why not do it?"
Local car makers Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi are struggling against the weight of imports. In 2001 imported vehicles accounted for 58.9 per cent of all new-car sales in Australia. In January 2006, imported vehicles accounted for 81.1 per cent of all new-car sales.
Japan is the single biggest source of imported vehicles (41.1 per cent in January 2006, according to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries) but Korean imports are growing, from 7.6 per cent of new-car sales in January 2005 to 9.9 per cent in January 2006.
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Posts: 848
From: Melb, Aust
Re: What's after VE for Holden?
Originally Posted by SSbaby
Well it's a disappointment to read guionM's post... and that's putting things mildly. It cuts deep.
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