Throwing this out for discussion.

The linchpin of GM's restructuring is incorperating it's worldwide engineering and design to avoid overlap and to save alot of money.

Saturn is essentially becoming a US distributer of Opel. There will be unique models such as the Outlook that won't be sold over in Opel dealers in Europe, but the rest of the line will pretty much be identical, right down to the grilles.

Saab is now made everywhere except Sweden (Cadillac's BLS is made at GM's Sweeded plant).



What if you have a passenger car division (like, say....Pontiac). You have a successful model (the G6) and a car that's an established FWD volume car (say the Grand Prix), that's going to sell 120K plus per year as long as you keep it relevent. You want a GTO that you only expect to sell 15-20K per year. This division is going to be rolled in with another (Buick) that has a pricey flagship sedan (Lecerne) that represents what that name is about. You also need a sedan that defines this division (Pontiac) as an excitement division, and RWD is what you need, perhaps only about 30-40K of 'em annually.

Now recently (within the past few years) you have just spent a vault full of money expanding a plant (say in Australia) to make a bewildering variety of models off of the same chassis. You then decided to cancel this because it was too much to demand, and layed off a number of people. But you still had all this extra capacity that was made to produce SUVs, small trucks, etc.. But you decided instead to use small SUVs and trucks, etc... from what you already will produce in the United States. This plant will begin manufacturing sedans for it's traditional markets (Australia, New Zealand, and the Middle East), but still has excess capacity of perhaps 40K or so annually.



Add to this:

a) This brand (Pontiac) isn't going to be phased out.
b) This plant (in Australia) is expected to ramp up to full capacity within a year or so of it's new model (the VE), even though just sedans are scheduled)
c) This new model (the VE) will probally have a life span of about 4 years before it's replaced by the US version of this chassis.
d) The US version of this chassis's sedan is comitted to 1 division (say Chevrolet) for at least 1 and maybe 2 years before it goes to other divisions.

Noteworthy items:
1. 2 knowledgeable people taking 2 opposite sides on if a particular car (Pontiac RWD sedan & GTO) is being made.

2. A General Motors product Chairman confirming that a certain car (a GTO for 2008) is a "Go" (as well as mentioning a "Statesman" sedan), but says of Camaro: "There's no reason it wouldn't be approved" ..... at the same news conference! (worth noting that GTO and Statesman are Holden Australia cars)

3. "Zeta 2" (as it's coined around here) is 1 to 2 years behind the VE based Zeta. While Zeta turned out to be moderately expensive, Zeta 2 was designed to be low cost, high volume, and predominately Chevrolet's.



Now the "What If" questions:

1. What if you had a car that was created in a country (Australia) with exports to a particular country in mind (the United States), being made in a plant that has more capacity than it needs, at a time you are reducing the number of factories you have in the United States (you have only 1 in Australia), and you need a couple of high powered halo cars for a division (Pontiac)?

2. What if this chassis was too pricey to be sold as a $22K sedan (mid-level Chevy), but was just fine as a $32-35K one (Pontiac or Buick)?

3. If GM can turn Saab into a distributer of GM's global products, and turn Saturn into a US Opel distributor, wouldn't it seem logical that GM use 1 of it's US nameplates (or combined brand showroom like Pontiac-Buick) as a distributor of Holden sedans including a coupe?


Zeta based cars that were originally planned as exports to & production in the US, then were sidelined while GM restructured their entire RWD program, then approved in much smaller scope than originally planned.

No one has said we wouldn't get a version of the VE. Infact, it seems certain that we will.

 

thanks santa.

 

So Pontiac and Buick may use Holdens for a short time until Zeta is ready to go??

 

Or what if Pontiac (like Saturn) has a few US only models, but also becomes a permanent distributor of certain Holdens, including the next gen?

 

That is way too much to consider all at once, and the logistics of such a product seem problematic.

I need a little while to figure out how I feel about all this.

 

Gui,

I thought you were leading-on to having Saab and Pontiac merged into a single brand that would be called Pontiac in the US and Saab everywhere else. If Pontiac's volume doesn't significantly improve in the next few years they could alway just rebrand Pontiac as Saab in the US.

This way GM can still get most of their "Made from Jet Air planes" marketing catch phrase

 

Would love it.

 

I'd wonder about the styling. Now we haven't seen the new VE without cammo yet, but I still worry. Holden's have had rather boring styling. It seems quite the opposite of Pontiacs of the last 20 years or so. They don't need a re-run of the current GTO. Great car without the styling to back it up.

 

For a company (GM) that fails to produce anything remotely exciting this side of Corvette, I just can't understand how some people criticise Holden on the styling front. Granted the Commodore is last century's car but it's a hell of a lot more pleasing to the eye than the Impala etc... VE is only a few months away but GM will only be 2 years behind the ballgame by the time Zeta2 rolls out!

 

I suppose it's possible, down the road, for Holden to export Commodores here as Pontiac G8's.

But there may be some issues to consider with that. Holden certainly wouldn't have the capacity to supply Pontiac with one for one replacements for the W-car Grand Prix. Also...as we saw with the GTO....transport and the strong AUS dollar, can make a car imported from Australia expensive to buy here.

We may want to look closer at what is happening with the future Holden-DAT plant in Korea.

 

Hmm... this morning I was scanning a number of GM-related web sites. Lots of discussions elsewhere (some involving folks from this site, posting on this thread) regarding Pontiac apparently having no confirmed future vehicle programs at this time (i.e. no confirmed GTO beside what Lutz has said, no Zeta, no official Epsilon2 G6, no Lambda, next-gen Theta probably a GMC), and I'm thinking it's time for a thread on Pontiac's ongoing viability (other than Solstice, everything recently has been a rebadge). Then I come across this thread...

The original plan to replace the GP/Bonneville was a rebadged Holden VE Commodore with Pontiac fascias. Per rlsedition, who was involved with this program until Zeta was killed and he took early retirement from GM, the car did clinic very well with U.S. consumers (but we know of Lutz's disdain for clinics):
http://ls1gto.com/forums/showpost.ph...98&postcount=5

Could we see this plan resurrected? Doubtful that we'd see these built in Oz for reasons mentioned previously - not to mention the fact that Holden either has or is about to whack over 1000 workers - basically those they hired to start up a third shift for GTO production, but no longer need now that that segment of their export market is bye-bye. Also doubt that this could be a complete Grand Prix replacement, unless there is a complementary program for a revised, larger G6 (much like the rumors of a revised,larger Malibu taking up some of the market of the Impala when it goes RWD). Or maybe GM is thinking of not duplicating platforms between Buick and Pontiac, and that an EPII LaCrosse would take the G6's place? Very confusing...

Then there's the proposal to not build/stop build Utes in Oz and import pickups from NA or Thailand. The Ute has been a cultural icon in Australia (both Ford and Holden make 'em) - how well would they take to this model going away? Would they just drive sales to Ford the way that GMNA did when they discontinued the B-bodies in '96?

I, too, had lusted after other Holden models, and wondered if the Opel->Saturn relationship can be duplicated Holden->Pontiac. However, I think styling becomes a big issue - while Saturn had no real lasting public image/impression, Americans expect Pontiacs to be out-there (even though cladding was banned a few years ago - look at how the styling controversy took the wind out of the GTO's sales) and I don't know if Holden's styling would sell in N.A. with just another nose job. Most of Holden's lower-end vehicles are build in Korea now (technically, Holden bought Daewoo) - would they work as Pontiacs?

Does Pontiac have a future? It became obvious in early 2000 that Oldsmobile was going bye-bye, since there were no concept cars and no discussion of future production plans. I really am concerned that Pontiac (which, please correct me if I'm wrong, is still the #3 GM marque in sales, over 400k vehicles/yr.) does not have much of a future, unless we hear soon of confirmation of next-generation vehicles (not just rebadges like G5, Torrent, et. al.)... GTO is going, going, gone, Grand Prix will die after the 2008 model year, Torrent/G6/G5 should be around for another 2-3 years tops, Montana is gone, Vibe in its current model is dead after MY2007, Solstice ???

 

Some great observations. I do think Pontiac has a future. But it won't be based around Zeta though. For the near term, Pontiac's 'core' products will be Solstice and the various -and ever improving- versions of the G6. If a Kappa II, ( which would include more than 2 seat roadsters), line-up goes forward, I wouldn't expect that before '11 or '12.

The days where Pontiac was expected to get up to 3 Zetas are gone. Could things change down the line? It's possible. But right now, that's not the plan.

 

A $32K V8 SWB sedan for Pontiac badged as G8.
A $40K V8 LWB Statesman for Buick.

20k/yr a piece should make that quite profitable and provide a way that Holden doesn't have to axe any more jobs.

 

Grand Prix will continue on the streached Epsilon II. Remember the new Malibu will be close to Impala in size. The G6 will be on the shortened platform. G8 is more a Bonnevillesque car.

 

Per insiders at this site, there is no confirmed Pontiac EPII:

http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums...showtopic=8365