What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
Lets be realistic, and please don't say "American BMW"....I always found that comical.
Here's what Autoextremist thinks:
Here's what Autoextremist thinks:
And Pontiac? Where do we begin? Take one look at the Pontiac lineup, and it's easy to see what's missing. Pontiac was always GM's "march to a different drummer" division with attitude to go and a lineup of hot cars that always offered something extra, something a little raucous and definitely outside of the typically staid GM solar system. As a matter of fact, Pontiac and Chevrolet frequently crossed swords over the years in a lingering dispute about just who was the performance division within GM. When Pontiac was really red hot, Chevrolet squawked - and loudly - but the intramural contentiousness was always good for GM because that was when they were building some of their most memorable performance machines. But now, Pontiac is hurting. The Vibe? It should have been a Chevrolet. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Pontiac brand image. The G6 has a shot with its expanding offerings, but it should be considered Pontiac's entry-level car. Period. The GTO at least is in the right direction philosophically for Pontiac and origins aside, it is the high-performance value in the North American market. The Solstice will be a one-off hit - if it's executed properly. But where is the kick-*** Pontiac rear-wheel-drive sedan that looks like nothing else in the GM lineup (or anything else for that matter) in terms of content, value and performance? It's MIA - and that's why the Sigma is so desperately needed for the car company formerly known as GM's "excitement" division. And one more thing, GM strategists need to get off this kick that Pontiac has to be something it isn't to succeed in this market. If Pontiac is to survive, let alone thrive, it will have to do it by being Pontiac - not some sort of weak-kneed BMW clone.
Last edited by Z284ever; Apr 6, 2005 at 09:29 AM.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
1) Pontiac needs to have a "sport" orientation to all of their vehicles.
2) They need to feel like they are not re-bodied versions of another divisions car.
3) They need to have exciting, and different powertrain offerings.
4) They can keep the twin-grille theme, but they need to go back to a different way of executing that on different vehicles, rather than slapping basically the same one on every new car.
Example: The Bonneville, Vibe, Grand Grix, etc all HAD their own original takes on the split grille design when the current models originally came out, however, their freshenings have slapped the same styled grille on all of these cars, and the GTO and G6 have basically the same thing going on too...
I understand having a brand identity , and that split grille CAN be it, but it has to be somewhat differentiated across the division.
2) They need to feel like they are not re-bodied versions of another divisions car.
3) They need to have exciting, and different powertrain offerings.
4) They can keep the twin-grille theme, but they need to go back to a different way of executing that on different vehicles, rather than slapping basically the same one on every new car.
Example: The Bonneville, Vibe, Grand Grix, etc all HAD their own original takes on the split grille design when the current models originally came out, however, their freshenings have slapped the same styled grille on all of these cars, and the GTO and G6 have basically the same thing going on too...
I understand having a brand identity , and that split grille CAN be it, but it has to be somewhat differentiated across the division.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
G6, rwd Grand Prix, GTO, Solstice.
That'd be a nice lineup for Pontiac. No minivan, no Vibe, no Torrent, no Rendevious (sp?). With less cars in the lineup they'd be able to keep the models fresh.
That'd be a nice lineup for Pontiac. No minivan, no Vibe, no Torrent, no Rendevious (sp?). With less cars in the lineup they'd be able to keep the models fresh.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
Originally Posted by Chuck!
G6, rwd Grand Prix, GTO, Solstice.
That'd be a nice lineup for Pontiac. No minivan, no Vibe, no Torrent, no Rendevious (sp?). With less cars in the lineup they'd be able to keep the models fresh.
That'd be a nice lineup for Pontiac. No minivan, no Vibe, no Torrent, no Rendevious (sp?). With less cars in the lineup they'd be able to keep the models fresh.
Solstice
G6
G8 (mid size RWD coupe/sedan)
G10/12? (full size RWD sedan)
GTO
That's it. They don't need trucks, that's what co-locating GMC with pontiac at dealerships was for. GMC, if executed right, can be the upmarket Chevrolet equivalent that would be a perfect compliment to Pontiac. They've just never gotten it quite right.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
I disagree with the truck assessment, but agree with the idea of G6/GP/Solstice/GTO, with no Vibe, Sunfire or Bonneville replacement needed.
HOWEVER...the Torrent is going to be a hit for Pontiac. I know what people are saying about the GMC/Pontiac thing, but there are a LOT of Pontiac dealers that do not sell GMC (I happen to be one of them
). GM could use a sporty car-based SUV to do battle in the marketplace, and I think the Torrent with the 3.9 will be perfect. Friends of mine who went to NYIAS said the Torrent looks hot, period. It is AMAZING to me how many loyal Pontiac customers I have shoved into Vibes because they simply wanted an SUV-type vehicle, but were not willing to give up driving a Pontiac. I've even had people trade in GPs on Vibes! I think the Torrent can be a significantly better asset to Pontiac than the Vibe, and better for brand image...hence the reason why I do not think they need both...but they need one. If nothing more than to keep faithful in the fold, they need the Torrent. The Torrent, if executed properly with a BETTER powertrain, can be a home run.
As for the rest of the lineup, G6 will be great once all the models are available. I sold 2 just this past weekend...one to a 74 year old retiree and one to a 28 year old single male. Talk about a broad appeal
If the '08 GTO looks like the one in MT, and the GP gets a better AT that can handle the V8 power more appropriately, I think Pontiac will be sitting pretty. The Solstice is icing on the cake.
Pontiac will make it...it has to.
HOWEVER...the Torrent is going to be a hit for Pontiac. I know what people are saying about the GMC/Pontiac thing, but there are a LOT of Pontiac dealers that do not sell GMC (I happen to be one of them
). GM could use a sporty car-based SUV to do battle in the marketplace, and I think the Torrent with the 3.9 will be perfect. Friends of mine who went to NYIAS said the Torrent looks hot, period. It is AMAZING to me how many loyal Pontiac customers I have shoved into Vibes because they simply wanted an SUV-type vehicle, but were not willing to give up driving a Pontiac. I've even had people trade in GPs on Vibes! I think the Torrent can be a significantly better asset to Pontiac than the Vibe, and better for brand image...hence the reason why I do not think they need both...but they need one. If nothing more than to keep faithful in the fold, they need the Torrent. The Torrent, if executed properly with a BETTER powertrain, can be a home run.As for the rest of the lineup, G6 will be great once all the models are available. I sold 2 just this past weekend...one to a 74 year old retiree and one to a 28 year old single male. Talk about a broad appeal
If the '08 GTO looks like the one in MT, and the GP gets a better AT that can handle the V8 power more appropriately, I think Pontiac will be sitting pretty. The Solstice is icing on the cake.Pontiac will make it...it has to.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
personally i think they should be a mini-bmw in a way. not price wise but offer something in between caddy and chevrolet in terms of comfort and luxary but also be the sports division. you want a well rounded car with good to great performance for a good price? pontiac is your brand. you want a more no frills car that gives up frills in favor of price or performance? chevy is your friend. you want top of the line luxary with a marginal influence on performance? you need caddy.
basically i like where caddy is going but i think that market is better suited for pontiac. i think caddy should go after the big guns like Merc. Benz.
basically i like where caddy is going but i think that market is better suited for pontiac. i think caddy should go after the big guns like Merc. Benz.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
The one thing that Pontiac needs is Style. Pontiac should be an aggressive looking version of another GM car. Buick on the high end and Chevy on the low end. That is what sets Pontiac appart. Buick should be VERY conservativly styled and Chevy should lie somewhere in between. AWD or RWD would be optimal but I don't think it is all important.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
Like some others and myself have said, the best mission for Pontiac would be as a division analogous to Mazda. Sporty performance, sporty looks, sporty interiors, sporty handling. You can reengineer platforms, but they need to look different. They need to have different content. Projector headlights, stiffer springs and/or stiffer bars, good shocks that damp the springs properly, 17+ inch wheels at least available on everything and low profile tires. Not that you should have to fall into the cars, but sitting in them should make you feel like you are in a race car or fighter jet. Mid level or higher engines available at Chevrolet would be base at Pontiac. A small SUV can work if it is executed properly, but I don't think it is a necessity. However, I don't see a problem with a hatch/wagon/crossover vehicle along the same lines as the Vibe, as long is it is clear that it is sporty. No small trucks. No mini vans.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
As he suggests, Pontiac needs to be Pontiac. Mazda seems to have picked up this type of character with their "zoom-zoom" campaign. Pontiac needs a macho version of it.
I can live with Vibe, but it needs more emphasis on performance. Obviously some rwd vehicles are missing... And there's no need for the minivan or any rebadged SUV(s).
Finally, the top car (GTO) needs to be a real hit with everyone.
I can live with Vibe, but it needs more emphasis on performance. Obviously some rwd vehicles are missing... And there's no need for the minivan or any rebadged SUV(s).
Finally, the top car (GTO) needs to be a real hit with everyone.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
Originally Posted by jrp4uc
As he suggests, Pontiac needs to be Pontiac. Mazda seems to have picked up this type of character with their "zoom-zoom" campaign. Pontiac needs a macho version of it.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
Originally Posted by jrp4uc
As he suggests, Pontiac needs to be Pontiac. Mazda seems to have picked up this type of character with their "zoom-zoom" campaign. Pontiac needs a macho version of it.
I think one of the problems is the dealers themselves. I don't think they really know what Pontiac should be anymore. GM listens to what their division's dealers tell them they need in their showrooms, and half the problem is probably that all of these dealers feel they need a vehicle for everyone. After all, they want their slice of every pie too right? I often wonder if that's the real reason we always see so much product overlap among brands....the dealers are just too afraid of having to sell just one focused line of vehicles, that maybe they would be reduced to small-time niche status.....
Last edited by Z28Wilson; Apr 6, 2005 at 12:31 PM.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
First off I think for a fresh looking , bold in your face new look , Pontiac merely needs to go back and look at its own history for inspiration . I think they need to lose the mini van , lose the Vibe , lose the sunfire ( hardtop solstice anyone , hello
) and lose the SUV period . Pontiac is not a truck brand , never has been and never will be . A strong , very distinguished , NOT mainstream Pontiac lineup would go something like this for me .
-2-door hardtop soltice ( bye bye sunfire )
-Solstice vert
-G6 4 door , vert and 2-door ...but read below for the over hall
-GTO spawed off the 4 door sedan below . Offer a upscale base model as
well with a 3.6 VVT , and name it Tempest .
-Sigma 4door sedan . In your face styling , base 3.6 VVT , LS2 , then
GXPwith more power yet . Offer AWD at all levels
-A magnum type wagon built off the above sedan , same engines and
model breakdowns . Call the sedan and Wagon Pontiac Catalina's .
Theres my idea of a strong , brand identified Pontiac .
Now about the G6 . Keep the coupe and vert and the 4 door . 2 levels for all models . 3.6vvt with a 6speed auto or manual or a turbocharged 3.6 vvt with the same trans choices . AWD available across the board . Freshen front and rear facsia's to give it strong personaltiy and keep the prices in check . Take the G6 out of the mainstream with the Altima , Camary and Accord ( isnt that what the Malibu is for ) , and make it a drivers car more like a Mazda 6 .
) and lose the SUV period . Pontiac is not a truck brand , never has been and never will be . A strong , very distinguished , NOT mainstream Pontiac lineup would go something like this for me . -2-door hardtop soltice ( bye bye sunfire )
-Solstice vert
-G6 4 door , vert and 2-door ...but read below for the over hall
-GTO spawed off the 4 door sedan below . Offer a upscale base model as
well with a 3.6 VVT , and name it Tempest .
-Sigma 4door sedan . In your face styling , base 3.6 VVT , LS2 , then
GXPwith more power yet . Offer AWD at all levels
-A magnum type wagon built off the above sedan , same engines and
model breakdowns . Call the sedan and Wagon Pontiac Catalina's .
Theres my idea of a strong , brand identified Pontiac .
Now about the G6 . Keep the coupe and vert and the 4 door . 2 levels for all models . 3.6vvt with a 6speed auto or manual or a turbocharged 3.6 vvt with the same trans choices . AWD available across the board . Freshen front and rear facsia's to give it strong personaltiy and keep the prices in check . Take the G6 out of the mainstream with the Altima , Camary and Accord ( isnt that what the Malibu is for ) , and make it a drivers car more like a Mazda 6 .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; Apr 6, 2005 at 12:41 PM.
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
RWD & AWD
Solstice - build the coupe too.
Kappa Sedan/coupe/wagon/hatch (G4?)
G6 - sedan/coupe/vert all with optional AWD
Grand Prix - RWD 3.9L/LS4/LS2
GTO - 350HP LS4 starting $27,995 and LS2 for $30K+
Torrent - AWD 3.9L or DOHC 3.6L standard. 18"s standard, think Nissan Murano
if they have money left over build a Trans Am that is LS2 only and is basically a re-skinned Camaro with more agressive sheet metal (12,000-20,000 units a year)
Solstice - build the coupe too.
Kappa Sedan/coupe/wagon/hatch (G4?)
G6 - sedan/coupe/vert all with optional AWD
Grand Prix - RWD 3.9L/LS4/LS2
GTO - 350HP LS4 starting $27,995 and LS2 for $30K+
Torrent - AWD 3.9L or DOHC 3.6L standard. 18"s standard, think Nissan Murano
if they have money left over build a Trans Am that is LS2 only and is basically a re-skinned Camaro with more agressive sheet metal (12,000-20,000 units a year)
Re: What does Pontiac need to be to survive?
a "macho" version of Mazda is a great way to refer to what Pontiac Should be. I don't like SUV's and crossover vehicles either, but I think they need them to survive. Just make them look cool. I'm sure in 1970 there were people that felt there shouldn't have been a Bonneville wagon too.
Think about the Pontiac Icons- the GTO,the Judge, the 2+2, the shaker hood scoop, big F'n chicken on the hood, the Fiero (say what you want but it saved them last time this happened). These are all very bold, unmistakable styiling concepts.
I think their line up could use some work, but it's not awful. They just need some wild cars to get people in the showroom. Years ago people came to see the Judge and left with a dark green base GTO or LeMans. They could do the same with anyone of their cars if they could get some cool concepts together.
Think about the Pontiac Icons- the GTO,the Judge, the 2+2, the shaker hood scoop, big F'n chicken on the hood, the Fiero (say what you want but it saved them last time this happened). These are all very bold, unmistakable styiling concepts.
I think their line up could use some work, but it's not awful. They just need some wild cars to get people in the showroom. Years ago people came to see the Judge and left with a dark green base GTO or LeMans. They could do the same with anyone of their cars if they could get some cool concepts together.


