yea the whole American auto industry..from what Mr. Shelby said..

 

No specs on the Phoenix yet. My key links have retired and another took a buyout, so now it's more a friend of a friend type of association instead of having the guys who actually up close, inside and personal on email or in the rolodex (I miss the "old" Chrysler ). Ironically, I can rattle down almost anything you'd want to know about Ford's TF V6, though for me Ford was once the most difficult and Chrysler was the easiest for info.

Your's isn't the first time I've heard about issues on returning 300 buyers. Even before the credit crisis hit, I heard from quite a few people in sales point out that the Chrysler 300 sold in such a quanity for the first few years that now those coming off leases or those that bought 300s (particularly 300Cs) and were extremely impressed return to Chrysler showrooms and there's nothing to turn to. They feel they are losing a ton of Chrysler repeat buyers since they either go to other manufacturers or keep their cars.


Everytime the subject of the Hemi engine comes up here, it's always a good fight because there is the illusion that the Hemi is a ripoff of the LS engines, or that the Hemi is a gas hog, or that the Hemi isn't powerful or some other item. Truth is that the Hemi is virturally indestructable. The SRT Hemis have reinforced iron blocks and forged internals. The last Hemis have proven virturally trouble free. The new revised Hemis have remarkable torque, more horsepower, and has the fuel economy of a V6.

The GM LS engines are great, but GM needs an LS engine with all it's advanced features in stead of one on one engine, and one on another. Also, GM's LS engines have gotten pretty big and have lost their stellar mpg ratings. On the good side, GM's large variety of LS engines means alot of engine shop mixing and matching, much along the lines of Ford's Windsor engines of the 1980s.

 

Well..the 5.3L would be a better comparision to the 4.7L or whatever Chrysler puts in their mid level V8. IMO the 4.7L is the poster child for obsolete.

The 5.7 Hemi is 390HP and 410 FT/LB of TQ and gets 13 city/19hwy
The 6.2L Silverado 403HP/417 FT/LB of TQ and gets 12city/18hwy

Both are 4wd trucks. So basically..the top of the line engine in each truck performs about the same.

I have extensive seat time in both an 08 SRT8 Charger, and am 08 Z06. These cars are the current pinnancle of the Hemi and LSx. The SRT8 gets a solid 12-13mpg mixed no matter what. The Z06 gets gets 20-21 mixed and will go high 20's to 30 on the high way. I know the vehicles have a huge weight difference, but even my 06 M6 GTO got signifigantly better gas milage than the SRT8. Also, the 6.1L Hemi has a very low TQ curve, but runs out of steam up top and does not like to rev. We all know the LSX has a table like TQ curve, and in the LS7 can rev to 7K RPM.

In terms of working on cars, the Hemi is a nightmare to do things like headers on..and the computer has proven a nightmare for tuners.

We are kind of at a jump off point here though. I mean..it is one of those things where you know GM can throw all the features the current Hemi has on an LSx...but it seems they have stopped investment on anything with the words "truck" and "V8". Dodge on the other hand seems to still be investing in the stuff because they don't have the money to build cars that don't use them.

 

Only when compared to the Hemi 5.7 that makes more power and gets better fuel economy while being cheaper to build. The 4.7 is in fact very comparable to both the 5.3 and the Ford 4.6 they all have around 300 hp and reasonable torque. And they also fill the slot to the larger, more powerful engines.

 

Branden, I know for a fact that you are better than to make a comparison like this, and how unrelated those examples are.

A Z06 is a 500 horsepower 3200 pound, 2 seater sports car. The SRT8 is a 4000 pound, 4 door, full size, family sports sedan. I know that you are a diehard GM fan, but my gosh, you're far more fair and level than this!

Seat time in a G8 GT and a Charger R/T performance pack if we're going to make this type of comparison, or at least a G8 GT vs a Challenger R/T. Corvettte is going to be far better comparing it to even the Camaro... and their from the same showroom!

If you are going to compare a GTO to anything, the Challenger R/T 6 speed is the obvious choice. Smaller engine, less horsepower, higher torque, better fuel economy. Then we can have a good conversation on merits and demerits of both

Speaking of fuel economy, compare the Corvette's fuel economy to that similar engine in a G8 GT.


Again, I gotta disagree with you on a point. Although I'll agree that Chrysler's computer codes are as hard to break into as Fort Knox, the headers are no more difficult to do on a Hemi than any other engine. the issue is the vehicle itself. If you want to talk header nightmares, look no farther than a 3rd or especially 4th gen Camaro. Those are nightmares. You wouldn't go around saying that LS1s, LT1s, or L98s are nightmares for headers simply because of those cars, so same goes true for the Hemi.


A very silly statement, that again surprized me given your normally balenced and dead accurate posts. This one is a wild blind shot that's way off target.

First of all, that Chrysler has a 300C, Charger R/T and Challenger R/T & SRT versions of all of them is a testimate to Chrysler's devotion to the enthusiast and thinking out of the box. They made barely anything more than FWD cars for the previous 20 years. Meanwhile, GM decided to follow suit, then chickened out.

If anything, it's GM that can't afford to do something... invest in something other than a electric car designed to lose money and depends on government tax breaks (the same as government giveaway of taxpayer dollars) to keep the damn thing under the price of a loaded G8 GXP! Given the choice, I'd throw my hat in with Chrysler's direction.

Add in to that the fact that as you point out, Chrysler continues to invest in their V8 means that they intend to keep their V8 engine around as long as humanly possible....just like Chrysler did with multi carburetors (till 1972) and true dual exhausts (till 1980).

Never owned a Chrysler, but have driven plenty. The 300C and the Charger Daytona were a pair of cars that really impressed me. I got at least as good fuel economy as I do in my LS1 automatic B4C (cylinder deactivation, I supposed... I was surprized too) & it had plenty of power for it's size. The only issue I had was with the mini truck feeling from the driver's seat that takes some getting used to, but the powertrain itself was quite good.


BTW, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone critcize the usage of V8s on this website, where people seem to advocate putting a V8 in anything with 4 wheels.

 

Branden,

Guy already counterpointed pretty much everything I was going to say, so I'll only add this...

If I could get 15 MPG driving an SRT8 Grand Cherokee like I absolutely STOLE it (wouldn't you if it was a free gas demo??? ), IMO your 12-13 MPG in a friggen Charger is not a good example of typical 6.1 mileage.

All I can say is, I love my Hemi...and I love the cars in which it comes. I wish they didn't have the poor MPG stigma people attach to them...they're great engines. Even my truck, right now with a 1,000 lb plow on the front of it (weighing in at about 6,800 lbs total!!!), in the middle of winter with crap formulated gas and 20 degree weather is still getting me about 12 MPG in mixed driving. THAT I cannot argue with...

 

I compared those two because the engines (6.1L Hemi, and LS7) are basically the pinnical of those motors NA. While you can argue that the it is unfair because the LX is an overweight brick..the fact is..the LS7 has a liter more displacement and a very aggressive cam for a factory car. And...my point mostly is how drastic the difference is in milage. On the same roads I got 20mpg mixed with a Z06 vs. 13-14 with an SRT8. That is a HUGE difference.

I think comparing an SRT8 to a GTO is perfectly fine. Similar displacement, weight, and power. Even the SRT8 Challenger with a 6 speed gets ****ty gas mileage.

Whats the point of this? The Corvette and G8 GT do not have a "similar" engine. The LS3 is bigger and does not have AFM.

Now for a point of reference..G8 GT is rated at 15 city, 24hwy. The Charger with the new 5.7L is rated at 16 city, 25 hwy. That is not a huge difference considering I find Chryslers AFM to be a bit more intrusive than GM's.

Your wrong on this. Do headers on a Corvette, or GTO, and then do a HEMI. Open the hood on a Hemi and you can't even see the headers. It all has to be done from the bottom, and it is an utter nightmare. Right now, my DD is an SRT8 Charger, and I want headers...but I have been dreading it for months now because it is such a hassle. A lot of Hemi guys actually do headers when they change the heads because it makes the job that much easier.

I am not criticizing the usage of V8's. My point is...GM has stuff already has plenty of stuff that can more than make the LSx comparable to what the Hemi has. VVT...GM has that on their OHV V8's. AFM...GM has that the same time as Dodge. AFM is funny..because most of the Dodge guys who mod turn it off anyways because it creates a nasty drone with anything after market.

What I am saying is right now GM is not investing in anything V8 because of the bail out or whatever...otherwise the new 5.7L Hemi could easily be matched or surpassed. Other than trucks, GM's V8's are used in niche, low volume cars. Chrysler on the other hand has to pour money into making the Hemi get better milage because they don't have the money to design something to replace the LX's volume. I want V8's everywhere...and want manufactuers to spend on them. That being said..you beating you chest over how the Hemi is made by the hands of god himself is pointless because GM can obviously match, and surpass it...it is just a matter of them having more pressing issues right now.


Like I said...the SRT8 is my DD right now and that is the milage I get. That is using good gas..though I am not on the highway alot.

 

1. If the LX is an overweight brick, then the G8 is an overweight brick (it weighs the same) and the Cadillac ranks above an overweight brick... whetever is above that. Fact is that anything with rear wheel drive, independent rear suspension, big enough to carry 5 people, and capable of handling the horsepower and torque of a powerful V8 while being priced at affordable levels by not using NASA spec space vehicle alloys or metals is going to weigh a decent penny.

2. An LS3 compares to a SRT8 Hemi. How do you:

Compare a 7.0 liter engine to a 6.1?
Compare a 5 passenger, 4 door sedan against a 2 passenger, 2 door sports car?
Compare mileage of a 3200 pound car versus a 4000 pound car, then blame the engine?

Again, I don't know who you are, but tell Branden we miss him and want him back!


Challenger R/T has a 5.7 liter (345 ci) V8 with 375 horsepower and 408 lbs/ft of torque.
Pontiac GTO has a 6.0 (364 ci) liter V8 with 400 horsepower and 400 lbs/ft of torque.

(The LS3 is 376 ci)

The Challenger R/T is rated at 16/25 mpg city/highway.
The GTO was rated at 15/23 mpg city/highway.

When we get the fuel economy numbers of the new Chevrolet Camaro, (at 422hp) then we can bring up the 425 horse SRT Challenger, and you just might win your point. But not comparing it to a Z06 Corvette or a GTO.

Can bend the rules to fit one purpose? Do we remember that the LS3 is a bigger engine than the L76/L98 (a scant 12 cu/in), but ignore that the Hemi engine is 20 cu/in smaller than the 6.0 liter and 31 cu/in smaller than the LS3??

Point is the G8 GT weighs the same as a Charger R/T Hemi, has the bigger engine displacement, yet has less power and worse fuel economy despite having AFM like the Charger does.

Honestly, it's pretty ballsy to question the point of a Corvette and G8 GT engine, yet compare the Corvette to a full sized family sedan as if it's normal operating procedure.

Seriously.... you find Chrysler's AFM to be more intrusive than that of the G8's??

Dude, it's Chrysler's traction control system that interferes with spirited highjinks, not the AFM. You can choose to pounce on that as much as you want (I have no qualms about fairly pointing out the pros and cons of any car), but that still doesn't change the point that the Hemi puts out more power from less displacement and gets better fuel economy in doing so.


Actually it is you that is in error this time.

As I said, the issue is the car it's in. I pointed to the harsh difficulty of installing headers in a 3rd and especially 4th gen F-body and said that using that as a measurement of difficulty of installing headers on an LS1 or L98 engine was ridiculous. Here's an article directly from a magazine that installed headers in a Charger:

"At first glance, it seemed there was really no way to get the manifolds out and the headers in within the confines of the Charger's engine bay. However, once we started removing the numerous heat shields from the motor mounts, exhaust flanges, and manifolds, we seemed to have just enough room to complete the job. It really helped to have a lift when installing the headers, and creative use of socket extensions and universals made the job a little easier, but it still took the better part of three hours to get the headers in place. This is not a function of the design of the headers, rather a by-product of the limited space around the Charger's engine.

Again, not the engine. It's the car the engine's in. Putting headers in a GTO or Corvette don't compare to putting headers in a F-body.


Doesn't seem that way:

" I mean..it is one of those things where you know GM can throw all the features the current Hemi has on an LSx...but it seems they have stopped investment on anything with the words "truck" and "V8". Dodge on the other hand seems to still be investing in the stuff because they don't have the money to build cars that don't use them.


1. To say GM has plenty of stuff that can more than make the LS engine comparable to the Hemi means GM has to have this stuff in the showroom on an engine....... They don't.

2. AFM may be funny, but it's about to be mandatory on all V8 (save very low production editions) within a couple of years.

Bailouts have only been approved over the past few days. GM's investments in V8s started to fall apart about a year ago when they were still "doing well".

Shoulda, coulda, woulda are 3 guys that never achieved anything. Saying something could be easily surpassed has little meaning whan you're actually comparing what's in the showroom.


And Chrysler doesn't???

At any rate...Nope, I never said Hemi was made by the hands of God himself. It might seem that way to one going so far overboard defending the LS engine that they use a pair of extremely dissimilar modes of transportation and displacement to prove a point.

Truth is, these are just engines. One maker makes a great engine, it's only a matter of time before someone makes a better engine. And in time, someone else comes along and makes an even better one.

The LS1 engine was a wunder engine. It was very compact, it put out alot of power, it got great fuel economy..... And it also came out 10 years ago!

Since then, that engine has gotten bigger. By getting bigger, that engine has gotten more powerful... and more thirstier. The new LS3 engine gets roughly 1-2 mpg worse fuel economy in the city and at least 3 mpg worse on the highway than the LS1. That means GM has focused on increasing power output of the engine and abandoned improving fuel economy.

Chrysler, on the other hand, with alot of stock invested in the "Hemi" name sought to keep the engine relevent despite increasing demands for fuel economy.

Because Chrysler actually puts it's V8 in a large number of cars (unlike GM) it's in Chrysler's best intrest in making sure that engine gets the best fuel economy possible (while GM's comparatively very limited use of automotive V8s decreases the importance of fuel economy).

GM killed the RWD Impala over a 1 mpg difference and moved it to FWD. Chrysler simply made the Hemi get 2 mpg better economy and kept their RWD cars (Form your own opinions about that point).

The result is that now, Chrysler's 5.7 Hemi engine is overall the more impressive engine when weighing V8 features, performance, and fuel economy.... unless or until GM actually does create a competing engine by upgrading the LS engine.


I think before we start slamming engines, you have the perfect setup to do an honest, back to back comparison. You are driving an SRT8 Charger. I suspect you might have a chance to do some seat time in a GXP G8. Both cars will have similar weight, horsepower, cost, and purpose.

This would be a perfect matchup between the 2. And we'd be able to form a more subjective opinion regarding the SRT8's engine next to a comparable GM product.

Then, my friend, it would be the best man...er...car (or engine)....wins.

 

AFM is on the L99, correct? While it doesn't start with "LS" it's a pretty darn similar motor...

 

I am not gonna bother arguing with you any more on this. You are gonna want to see things your way..and I am gonna see them mine. You can mix and match engines all day long to try and paint a story. All I am gonna say is on any given day I can drive a Hemi, or a few versions of the LSx...and I am just telling it like I see it.

In all honestly Guy, when you get on a kick like this where the Hemi is suddenly a techonological marvel, or FWD is the worst thing ever invented..your remind me of an old uncle I used to have. He would argue with you all day that seatbelts were bad because you could not get out the car after and accident, or Chevy made bad engines because he had a Vega that blew up and so forth. Even though you presented pretty good facts and opinon to him to say maybe he was wrong...he would not waver and would argue with you till you are blue in the face.

One day give me a call...I will be glad to go into some other stuff I really can't do here. I think you will understand my position better.

 

Be glad to give ya a call sometime.

I want to be perfectly clear on something here. I am not (as put) saying the Hemi is a technological marvel or ever said FWD is the worse thing ever.

What I HAVE done is is layed out exactly why (with facts and evidence) why in my view the previous new Hemi is a very good engine, and the newly revised Hemi is superior to what GM is making now based on power output for it's size and fuel economy. With engines today easily lasting 200K miles, the durability issue won't be solved for a few more years, but I've never heard a Hemi clacking like LS1s do when cold.

No engine remains on top forever. Ford's 5.0s were knocked off by LT1s, which were ground breaking engines and not just due to power and high fuel economy despite size (reverse colling, optispark, low profile manifold, etc..), and the LS1 was even better. But today, unless you are looking only at the most powerful regular engine on the market with the highest fuel economy (the LS3), the Hemi tops GM today.... until GM updates the LS engine to leapfrog over the revised Hemi.


As for FWD, for anyone who has driven nothing else in their life, then FWD is perfectly fine. However, only those same people are dumb enough to believe that RWD cars can't be driven on anything but dry roads on sunny days. My 70 year old mom can drive RWD on snow, my younger sister can drive RWD on snow. Neither of them are who I'd call devout, highly experienced, performance car drivers.

I've driven my 5.0, my 1st SC, and my '97 Z28 in snow. I learned to drive in hilly Western Pennsylvania where I grew up, I've driven over to Reno in the winter (which I pass Donner Pass & Lake Tahoe). I also like great handling, performance cars. Therefore, the torque-steering, heavy or false feeling, nose heavy handling dynamics of FWD is definately not my cup of tea.

Naturally, when I get into little spats with people who teethed on FWD cars who never learned how to drive in the winter with power going down through the rear, it inevitably drifts to a point where I seem that I hate FWD when these so-called enthuisiast drivers think FWD+winter=terrible, flaming death. Yet, those same people don't understand the concept of wide performance tires=no traction, regardless as to what you drive. Mom's not into cars, but even she know that.

A pair of snow tires for the back cost little, and can be used until they dry rot (I never needed them on my '97 Z28... traction control worked splendidly). Scott once had a video of a RWD Camaro (or Corvette) that was going through slippery conditions that an FWD Impala got stuck in.


IMO, and this is now opinion, not fact, anyone who has always driven FWD should perhaps stay in FWD, while those who have learned how to drive RWD cars can drive anything. FWD has a higher breakaway point, whereas in RWD you tend to be able to handle more and evidently, are more knowledgeable about driving characteristics. Less likely to do things that you "might" get away with in FWD.

Similarly, if you've driven nothing but AWD or 4wd, you might consider staying with those vehicles, because you might kill yourself in a RWD car.

Leave RWD cars to those who are a bit more expertly in driving experiences.

Perhaps, it's not that we hate FWD. Maybe, we RWD-only drivers just think of ourself as just a bit above the cut.


(Before hostilities erupt... this post evolved into good humored sarcasm, not ridgid dogma... it may be hard to tell when reading sometimes )

 

A good friend got rid of his SRT8 Jeep, sold it less than a year after buying it new. He took it in the shorts, but said it was worth it not to have to put gas in it ever again.

I hope some diesels hit the half ton market soon...I'm beginning to look for a replacement.

I like the new Rams, but wtf, have you seen what they expect people to pay for a decent 4x4 today? I priced out a middle of the road 4x4 quad cab and it was $38K...you'd think the economy hadn't just collapsed and banks were giving free money away!

 

I think the heyday of $40K-$50K trucks for the average person is long gone.

Even a $30K truck is about a $600+/month payment.

 

I'm one of the ones that gives Guy crap about his RWD fetish, so I'll add a little comment here...

It isn't that some of us FWD people CAN'T drive RWD in the snow...its that often we don't WANT to. I cut my teeth on an '89 Camaro RS, with 4 14" Monte Carlo steel ralleys with studded rear, regular front snow tires. Did I ever get stuck during FOUR New England winters? Nope...not at all.

Yet, when I sold the car in '02 and replaced it with a '95 Grand Am V6 Coupe for a DD, I was thrilled with the winter results. Even without snows, it was far more capable in snow, and especially ICE, than my studded Camaro. Once you're going, RWD is fine...but try to get going sometimes, and its hell. I remember one ice storm we had where, at the base of a 500 ft hill, I was going 30, headed straight, and the speedo said 30.

At the top of the hill, the RS had pointed its nose 90 degrees to the right, the speedo said 45, and I could've gotten out and walked faster. THAT is why RWD sucks in bad weather.

I've driven PLENTY of LX cars in bad weather, to re-inforce my own point to myself. Most recently, I had a V6 '07 Charger last weekend for 2 separate 6" snowstorms. Did I die? Obviously not But with the ESP blaring, it was nowhere near as competent as my wife's Comp G, following her home from a friend's house.

I love RWD...but for a DD, I will buy FWD until I die...or until I leave the hell hole that is New England My dream DD actually is a GXP GP, in case anyone was wondering The pinnacle of FWD handling, with the usability of FWD in the snow. THAT is a car that I feel has made little, if any, sacrifice for being FWD...and yes, GXPs are better in the snow than this Charger was, even with the fat 255s Bridgestones GXPs have/had.

I miss selling Pontiacs sometimes

 

It makes sense to offer both. While FWD may be good for New England, RWD is better here in California, if you care about sporty-driving cars. It's too bad that GM couldn't turn Pontiac into the RWD division, as they'd planned (for about 2 weeks, it seems), as it would have marked a real difference from Chevy and Buick, and given Pontiac a reason to exist,
other than having to pay off dealers (which is the only reason it exists now, it seems).

It would have been a niche market, but exactly what Pontiac needed to help it sell out here.

After a decade of:

Cadillac: RWD sporty luxury
Buick: FWD non-sporty luxury
Pontiac: RWD sporty
Chevrolet: FWD mainstream

GM's divisions would have meant a lot again and you wouldn't be hearing questions about why they exist.

Now back to the Chrysler pipeline