Weight
07-25-2007, 09:27 AM
#61
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 243
The only area where the extra weight would seriously hamper performance is in a straight line. If straight line performance is all that matters to you then your focus is waaay too narrow for what will be a serious performance vehicle.
By 'performance' I mean TOTAL performance, not straight-line-ONLY.
By 'performance' I mean TOTAL performance, not straight-line-ONLY.
Lets just say you're right, say the car is that much better built, and it really handles that extra fat well. Take out 400lbs and it will be that much better!!! Wishful thinking, convincing, and acceptance may be able to manipulate, but it can't change science!
Last edited by QATransAm; 07-25-2007 at 10:41 AM.
07-25-2007, 10:31 AM
#62
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Location: Chicagoland IL
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To tell you the truth, my CTS probably "feels" 500 pounds lighter, (hey, maybe even 1,000 lbs lighter
), than a GTO on a twisty road, but it still feels way too heavy to be a Camaro. Oh, BTW as an aside, my CTS is several hundred pounds lighter than a VE Commodore.Just imagine what a blast it would be to drive, had the VE not gained all that weight?
Last edited by Z284ever; 07-25-2007 at 12:31 PM.
07-25-2007, 12:16 PM
#63
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One more thing on Corvette. GM charges what they charge for it....because they can. Does a Corvette cost more to produce than what a V8 Camaro will cost? Of course, but not as much more than one might think and certainly not commensurate with it's MSRP difference. Corvette is THE most profitable car GM sells.
What I'm trying to say is that you can only partially link Corvette's higher price with lighter weight.
07-25-2007, 03:14 PM
#64
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Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Lesseee...
Reality check?
Check.
Ego?
Left at the door.
Flame retarding proximity suit?
Tight...
K..... here goes nothing......
If you know anyone who has done better, feel free to post them.
I save it for the "SS vs Z28 is top Camaro" threads. 
Try that stunt in a new BMW 3 or 5 series.
New Mustang GT weighs in at 3500 pounds. Mustang GT also has a live axle. Ford also kept alot of the creature features off the Mustang. We already know that the new Camaro (as will all GM products soon) will have OnStar. Safe bat that the Camaro will be hooked up for far more luxury and convience items than Mustang as well.
As for everything else:
IRS assembly adds at least 150 pounds if all else is the same.
Extra airbags and related items add weight. Not sure how much.
Although you might not actually order certain items like SatNav or heated seats, all the wiring is there and everything is set up for it. More weight.
Finally, having a chassis set up for 500 horsepower as ALOT different than a chassis set up for 350 or 400. Thicker sheetmetal in the structure. Heavier duty engine and drivetrain components mean heavier weight in said components. What's heavier? A 13" brake rotor or a 14" brake rotor? A 16' rim with 245/5018 tires or a 18" rim running 275s all around?
There's no free ride. You want IRS, big grippy tires & rims, huge brakes, antilock, a drivetrain that not only chruns out massive horsepower but one that you can also take to the racetrack and abuse to no end without snapping or spitting out pieces after the 1st or 2nd try, you're talking weight.
Unfortunately, you've just spent a bit more than $3-4,000 and saved barely 100 pounds (mainly via the engine cradle). Not very cost efficient.
Camaro is the competition for the Mustang. Currently, Mustang is the planet's best selling sporty coupe. The draw is having a high styled coupe at a very low price. Making Camaros that run $3,000 to $4,000 more than the guys across the street ranks right up there with the "add-more-horsepower-and-we'll-beat-Mustang-in-sales" in ways to ensure Camaro has a short life. Again.
1980 Z? My "porky" 3700 pound Thunderbird SC would probally had you your head, let alone an even more porky '07 Charger SRT8. 
BTW: Camaro isn't a musclecar, and it's not likely to weigh 4,000 pounds.
Doubtful Jessica even knows (let alone cares or have any perspective) of the weight of whatever car she buys. But you right in assuming she'll at least look at the fuel economy rating. My money's on Camaro's V6 being better in mpg than the far weaker V6's from Honda or Toyota..... regardless as to how much lighter they are.
Besides, I'd rather my own "Jessica" be in a 3500 pound Camaro than a 3100 pound one when tangling with an SUV.
No one's telling you to "have" to like anything especially me, Bob. But I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people here are "right on the money" concerning the next Camaro's weight, or at the very least "Right in the ballpark".
However.... most everyone is willing to wait and see how the final car really is before passing judgement about some abitrary weight number and many here actually are beinging realistic enough that they know everything is a tradeoff.
You're right that most people don't care about weight & they care more about features like SatNav, stereos, heated everything, etc. But what they tend to look at (outside of fuel mileage) is how does the car feel.
Could care less about any "message". I'm more a "facts" person.
I live in a city filled with people more intrested in "messages" than reality and facts. Anyone can sit here and spout messages till their blue in the face, but at the end of the day what counts is reality.
Reality in this case is that no one on the planet has produced a RWD, IRS, 450 to 500 horsepower/ 500 lbs/ft of torque capable, 4 passenger, 2 door car that weighs 3500 pounds costs this side of $100,000 (let alone $50,000), that has to not only double as a $20-25,000 high volume model but also has to contend with current and future emissions and safety standards..... oh... and by the way.... nothing on it can break from abuse for at least 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If anyone ever did, the line forms to the left of me.
Anyone who wants to still post messages demanding the 200 mpg carburetor, or that big oil collaberated with GM to kill the EV1, or that GM's engineers are either purposely or incompetently not making a 3400 pound 500 horsepower Camaro that costs a Mustang GT-like $25,000 can post messages here till their heats content.
Reality check?
Check.
Ego?
Left at the door.
Flame retarding proximity suit?
Tight...
K..... here goes nothing......
There is an ignore feature that can be utilized with this Message Forum, if you so desire.
PS...my 88 Coupe was hit from behind at ~10 mph some years ago. I didn't throw it away after impact. Ditto my 99.
Please tell me where the new Camaro is going to gain 200+ pounds. Indy rear is not much of a weight gain, so where is the rest coming from? What is all this so called new safety equipment I keep hearing about? From what I have been reading the new LS3 is actually lighter than an LS1. If the new mustang GT weighs in at just under 3500 pounds, their is absolutly no reason why the new Camaro cant do the same. The LS3 is probably 100 pounds lighter than Fords V8. I just dont see why we need the weight.
As for everything else:
IRS assembly adds at least 150 pounds if all else is the same.
Extra airbags and related items add weight. Not sure how much.
Although you might not actually order certain items like SatNav or heated seats, all the wiring is there and everything is set up for it. More weight.
Finally, having a chassis set up for 500 horsepower as ALOT different than a chassis set up for 350 or 400. Thicker sheetmetal in the structure. Heavier duty engine and drivetrain components mean heavier weight in said components. What's heavier? A 13" brake rotor or a 14" brake rotor? A 16' rim with 245/5018 tires or a 18" rim running 275s all around?
There's no free ride. You want IRS, big grippy tires & rims, huge brakes, antilock, a drivetrain that not only chruns out massive horsepower but one that you can also take to the racetrack and abuse to no end without snapping or spitting out pieces after the 1st or 2nd try, you're talking weight.
For me I would be willing to pay an extra 3 to 4k for a lightweight Camaro. Aluminum suspension pieces, magnesium engine cradles, carbon fiber hood, doors and fenders could be part of that option. It would be like the 1LE package of old.
And, why does the Camaro need to be a 20k base car? These days, 20k cars are looked upon and treated as throw-aways. Run the price up a couple thousand, engineer some weight saving into a platform that sharing parts across a gazillion other models anyway, and voila, there's your economy of scale.
That's just my opinion, though. I speak with my wallet, and I'm just not interested in a 4000lb musclecar. Never have been. I suppose I'll keep my "porky" '80Z, that tips the scales at 3450lbs.
BTW: Camaro isn't a musclecar, and it's not likely to weigh 4,000 pounds.
Besides, I'd rather my own "Jessica" be in a 3500 pound Camaro than a 3100 pound one when tangling with an SUV.
He probably is "right on the money" (helps get everybody ready for a hefty car), and when the 3700 lbs Camaro debuts, he can tell us all how "right on the money" he was. Then I'll tell him how I didn't and don't like the message. At least we're all on the same page.... (didn't ignore the rest of this post)
However.... most everyone is willing to wait and see how the final car really is before passing judgement about some abitrary weight number and many here actually are beinging realistic enough that they know everything is a tradeoff.
You're right that most people don't care about weight & they care more about features like SatNav, stereos, heated everything, etc. But what they tend to look at (outside of fuel mileage) is how does the car feel.
...However, a small number of us more hardcore performance types won't, and will continue to voice our opinion. You have to neither read it nor comment on it if you don't like. I personally have no problem with you commenting on it....though I think it is silly that you are essentially telling me to "shut up" and "be happy" about it.
Guess you don't like my message.
Keep that faith.
Bob
Guess you don't like my message.
Keep that faith.
Bob
I live in a city filled with people more intrested in "messages" than reality and facts. Anyone can sit here and spout messages till their blue in the face, but at the end of the day what counts is reality.
Reality in this case is that no one on the planet has produced a RWD, IRS, 450 to 500 horsepower/ 500 lbs/ft of torque capable, 4 passenger, 2 door car that weighs 3500 pounds costs this side of $100,000 (let alone $50,000), that has to not only double as a $20-25,000 high volume model but also has to contend with current and future emissions and safety standards..... oh... and by the way.... nothing on it can break from abuse for at least 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If anyone ever did, the line forms to the left of me.
Anyone who wants to still post messages demanding the 200 mpg carburetor, or that big oil collaberated with GM to kill the EV1, or that GM's engineers are either purposely or incompetently not making a 3400 pound 500 horsepower Camaro that costs a Mustang GT-like $25,000 can post messages here till their heats content.
07-25-2007, 03:38 PM
#65
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Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Part 2:
I agree 100% with you that it's very doable.........
...if you're willing to keep horsepower at 2002 LS1 levels.
But engineering a car to withstand the next horsepower race pretty much kills a 4th gen weight in a 5th gen Camaro.
FWIW, the 2008 Mustang is gaining weight via thicker metal in key structural areas.... to handle higher performance engines.
Actually, that 25 pound figure is closer to the BS term.
If you ever get a chance to check out the difference between a IRS Cobra assembly and the stock Mustang live axle, or a Sigma IRS assembly and the live axle from an F-body (out of the car, of course) you'll also appriciate how close to the BS term that 25# number actually is.
This is drifting into the realm of being downright silly.
Anytime you want to pull up buyer profiles, and lists of what people who ACTUALLY are potential buyers of the next Camaro really want and what's important to them, just let me know.
And again, there'd probally be 10 people to take your place judging by the intrest in the 5th gen and sales of the 4th. However, for the record, I seriously doubt the regular V8 Camaro will break into the 3800 pound mark. Start adding options and all bets are off, though.
No doubt in the quest to save every pound whereever it can be found, magnesium isn't off the table. But it's much different saving a few pounds in the Lacrosse's intrament panel support structure or 5 pounds or so over alumunum in the casing of a transfer case versus using it for great weight savings such as chassis and entire drivetrain components.
If anything, the examples you listed show to what extreme measures GM has been going to to shave weight.... and perhaps more reason to believe if there was ways to cut far more weight within cost constraints, they would do it in a heartbeat.
Two things I want to say about this:
1. Corperations are in the business to make money. If there is a demand for something and they can make enough money on it to be worthwhile, they'll do it.
2. You got it completely backwards. At the dealer level, you are more special to that than you are to the corperation in general. That's not just GM, but everyone. The Dealer will bend over backward and into pretzels to keep you happy and attempt to give you exactly what you want.
But at the corperate level, If enough people buy a product to make money, your personal opinions matter only to make their product better or cheaper in the form of feedback and studies where majority rules, key areas of consern to the most people get the attention. Seeing price jump a few thousand dollars for a small weight savings probally isn't going to win many or any votes. Truth is when you start demanding the improbable and threaten to take your business elsewhere (and there's 10 people standing in line to take your place and no one has been able to do what you are demanding) you're going to be brushed off.
Why does this remind me of a spoiled 5 year old? 
Listen, find anyplace in this entire thread where I or anyone else told anyone else to "shut up" about anything. Anyone who read my post and think I'm telling them to shut up is a complete and total moron or engaged in too many childish "No-you-shut-up" arguments far too late in their formulative years.
What I DID post is the futility of continually debating this subject when no automaker on the planet has been able to make the type of car some are demanding.
Want a $20-25K sub-3400 pound performance RWD coupe? What are you prepared to give up to get one? Size? Horsepower? Creature comforts? IRS? Massive brakes and tires? Are you ready to drop down to a V6? A turbo 4?
An Infinity G35 coupe with a V6 weighs 3500 pounds.
The new G37 coupe is just under 3700 pounds.
The BMW M3 weighs in at over 3600 pounds.
Hell, even a Saturn Aura weighs 3600 pounds.
Yet, a Camaro that's bigger and potentially more power should weigh less than these cars???
Uhhh..... right.
Again, there's no point in debating this, not because anything's raining on my day (you're really pittyful if you actually think that) but because there's nothing around to use as an example to actually have a debate outside of alot of yakity yak.
If someone can come up with examples and/or plausable and legitimate reasons why GM would purposely put out a 5th gen Camaro that's heavier (and thirstier) than the 4th gen if it was cheap and easy to do otherwise, or at least an example of comparable car from any automaker who has produced a similar car that weighs substantially less, THEN we will actually have something to talk about.
Otherwise, it's just wasted keystrokes and worthless hot air.
The suspension's fooling him...... not that the suspension and the car itself is fantastic, huh? 
You're a BMW fan, as I recall. I recall you once posted that you drove a BMW 5 series.
I recall the BMW 5 series actually being as heavy if not moreso than the Holden VE. Yet you gave the BMW high praise. EXTREMELY high praise. I wanted to drive one.
So, were you not also "fooled" into thinking that BMW was a better handling car than it was???
... and therefore, what a better handling car that BMW 5 series would be were it not for the 3500 (2.5 6)-4000 (4.4 V8) pounds the car has to lug around???
...if you're willing to keep horsepower at 2002 LS1 levels.
But engineering a car to withstand the next horsepower race pretty much kills a 4th gen weight in a 5th gen Camaro.
FWIW, the 2008 Mustang is gaining weight via thicker metal in key structural areas.... to handle higher performance engines.
And before I hear some more BS about how IRS weighs SOOO MUCH MORE than a well isolated and controlled live axle - please save it, 'cause it doesn't weigh that much more. Figure maybe 25 or so pounds more. The difference in weight between an LS3 and a 4.6 Modular motor is probably greater.
If you ever get a chance to check out the difference between a IRS Cobra assembly and the stock Mustang live axle, or a Sigma IRS assembly and the live axle from an F-body (out of the car, of course) you'll also appriciate how close to the BS term that 25# number actually is.
What I think is ridiculoius is this:
People, (who probably have very little interest in buying a 5th gen), telling people who are interested in buying a 5th gen, to stop voicing opinions on weight concerns in a thread about weight concerns.
People, (who probably have very little interest in buying a 5th gen), telling people who are interested in buying a 5th gen, to stop voicing opinions on weight concerns in a thread about weight concerns.
Anytime you want to pull up buyer profiles, and lists of what people who ACTUALLY are potential buyers of the next Camaro really want and what's important to them, just let me know.
A 3,800 lbs Camaro coupe can kiss my ***, I'd buy 10 cars before I'd buy that.
If anything, the examples you listed show to what extreme measures GM has been going to to shave weight.... and perhaps more reason to believe if there was ways to cut far more weight within cost constraints, they would do it in a heartbeat.
1. Corperations are in the business to make money. If there is a demand for something and they can make enough money on it to be worthwhile, they'll do it.
2. You got it completely backwards. At the dealer level, you are more special to that than you are to the corperation in general. That's not just GM, but everyone. The Dealer will bend over backward and into pretzels to keep you happy and attempt to give you exactly what you want.
But at the corperate level, If enough people buy a product to make money, your personal opinions matter only to make their product better or cheaper in the form of feedback and studies where majority rules, key areas of consern to the most people get the attention. Seeing price jump a few thousand dollars for a small weight savings probally isn't going to win many or any votes. Truth is when you start demanding the improbable and threaten to take your business elsewhere (and there's 10 people standing in line to take your place and no one has been able to do what you are demanding) you're going to be brushed off.
Buying a car puts most people in the hole for 4-5 years, thou should get what one wants, its not a privilege, its a damn choice. No one should be told to shut up about something, no matter how 'old' it might look, like its really ruining your day. Scan down, or up to the next thread!
Listen, find anyplace in this entire thread where I or anyone else told anyone else to "shut up" about anything. Anyone who read my post and think I'm telling them to shut up is a complete and total moron or engaged in too many childish "No-you-shut-up" arguments far too late in their formulative years.
What I DID post is the futility of continually debating this subject when no automaker on the planet has been able to make the type of car some are demanding.
Want a $20-25K sub-3400 pound performance RWD coupe? What are you prepared to give up to get one? Size? Horsepower? Creature comforts? IRS? Massive brakes and tires? Are you ready to drop down to a V6? A turbo 4?
An Infinity G35 coupe with a V6 weighs 3500 pounds.
The new G37 coupe is just under 3700 pounds.
The BMW M3 weighs in at over 3600 pounds.
Hell, even a Saturn Aura weighs 3600 pounds.
Yet, a Camaro that's bigger and potentially more power should weigh less than these cars???
Uhhh..... right.
Again, there's no point in debating this, not because anything's raining on my day (you're really pittyful if you actually think that) but because there's nothing around to use as an example to actually have a debate outside of alot of yakity yak.
If someone can come up with examples and/or plausable and legitimate reasons why GM would purposely put out a 5th gen Camaro that's heavier (and thirstier) than the 4th gen if it was cheap and easy to do otherwise, or at least an example of comparable car from any automaker who has produced a similar car that weighs substantially less, THEN we will actually have something to talk about.
Otherwise, it's just wasted keystrokes and worthless hot air.
My guess is that the VE's superior front and rear suspension is fooling you. I've never driven a Commodore, (current or previous), but I've driven maybe a dozen or so GTO's - and I've never really thought they handled very well at all. To me, they felt very heavy and sloppy.
You're a BMW fan, as I recall. I recall you once posted that you drove a BMW 5 series.
I recall the BMW 5 series actually being as heavy if not moreso than the Holden VE. Yet you gave the BMW high praise. EXTREMELY high praise. I wanted to drive one.
So, were you not also "fooled" into thinking that BMW was a better handling car than it was???
...Just imagine what a blast it would be to drive, had the VE not gained all that weight?
Last edited by guionM; 07-25-2007 at 03:54 PM.
07-25-2007, 04:17 PM
#66
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Location: Chicagoland IL
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Do you honestly think that any manufacturer in the world...ANY...would accept that sort of weight compromise...in order to get an IRS. Even the SN95 Cobra with it's reverse engineered and extremely heavy MN12 based IRS, (which is an EXTREME example BTW, that many at Ford were unhappy about), added only 90 lbs to the Mustang....not 150. Can you imagine what adding that much weight to the suspension would do to the chassis dynamics of a car?! There would literally be no good concievable argument for IRS. Not for Corvette. Not for Ferrari. Not for Porsche. Not for BMW. Not for anyone.
An IRS mounted with no subframe might not even add any weight compared to a modern, well engineered, live axle, (with multiple control arms, panhard arm, etc). But for HVH reasons, a subframe is currently preferred. The structural integrity that the subframe gives, can also be used to remove weight somewhere else if done from the beginning however.
Incorporating a modern IRS into the architecture of a car from the get-go will add about 25 pounds, perhaps even abit more. But certainly nowhere near the 90 lbs added to the last Cobra... and CERTAINLY not the 150 lbs that you claim.
I'll get to the rest when I get some time......
Last edited by Z284ever; 07-25-2007 at 04:20 PM.
07-25-2007, 04:41 PM
#67
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Location: AR (PA born and fled)
Posts: 859
Yup. I agree with you Charlie.
I've been saying the very same things to anyone who will listen from the very beginning.
Look at a bulletproof live axle. Think about what it's made out of. Think of it's size. Now do the same with a similarly bulletproof IRS.
I don't why everyone thinks that a couple aluminum control arms, toe links and a cradle will weigh substantially more than even the puny 7.625 inch rear we had.
I don't know why people think these same components will cost eleventy billion dollars. Aluminum is no longer exotic and steel is nowhere near as cheap as it used to be.
I've been saying the very same things to anyone who will listen from the very beginning.
Look at a bulletproof live axle. Think about what it's made out of. Think of it's size. Now do the same with a similarly bulletproof IRS.
I don't why everyone thinks that a couple aluminum control arms, toe links and a cradle will weigh substantially more than even the puny 7.625 inch rear we had.
I don't know why people think these same components will cost eleventy billion dollars. Aluminum is no longer exotic and steel is nowhere near as cheap as it used to be.
Last edited by Chewbacca; 07-25-2007 at 04:44 PM.
07-25-2007, 05:05 PM
#68
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
While I agree 150-lbs additional for IRS is probably a guess on the high side, the implication by some of the people around here is that the increase in weight is negligible. That's a load of BS.
I hate to quote myself, however..
I challenge anyone who is pro-IRS/anti-weight to name a manufacturer, foreign or domestic that currently sells even a 3500-lb IRS V8 coupe that is within Camaro's projected price range. (I'm talking within $500 +/- of the Mustang GT.)
I hate to quote myself, however..
I challenge anyone who is pro-IRS/anti-weight to name a manufacturer, foreign or domestic that currently sells even a 3500-lb IRS V8 coupe that is within Camaro's projected price range. (I'm talking within $500 +/- of the Mustang GT.)
07-25-2007, 05:10 PM
#69
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Posts: 1,943
Want a $20-25K sub-3400 pound performance RWD coupe? What are you prepared to give up to get one? Size? Horsepower? Creature comforts? IRS? Massive brakes and tires? Are you ready to drop down to a V6? A turbo 4?
An Infinity G35 coupe with a V6 weighs 3500 pounds.
The new G37 coupe is just under 3700 pounds.
The BMW M3 weighs in at over 3600 pounds.
Hell, even a Saturn Aura weighs 3600 pounds.
Yet, a Camaro that's bigger and potentially more power should weigh less than these cars???
Uhhh..... right.
Expecting a Camaro with gobs more HP and a similar price point but not weigh more than 3,500lbs just seems rather ridiculous to me (no offense to Bob or anyone else wanting it…I just think it’s very unrealistic).
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 07-25-2007 at 05:15 PM.
07-25-2007, 05:10 PM
#70
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Location: AR (PA born and fled)
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The 1998 Toyota Supra.
The NA version sold in the low $30K range and had the same underpinnings as the $40K turbo model.
This car didn't really sell in large numbers and did not benefit from the economies of scale the Camaro will enjoy.
Last edited by Chewbacca; 07-25-2007 at 05:14 PM.
07-25-2007, 05:19 PM
#71
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Not a bad try but the price is a bit high for the example being sought. More to the point, do you really think that car could be legally sold today with today's safety requirements? Maybe but I doubt it.
07-25-2007, 05:21 PM
#72
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Location: Chicago, IL
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why does that matter? cars back then needed less features,gadgets, saftey crap, etc to be competetive
07-25-2007, 05:25 PM
#73
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Location: AR (PA born and fled)
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Agreed that today's car would be a bit different and possibly more expensive due to increased content and safety regulations. Being a 1998 model hardly makes it an irrelevant antique though.
07-25-2007, 05:36 PM
#74
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Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
Damn I hate it when leave ends and I have to go back to work.
Nope, didn't miss it. Such is what we're stuck with.
Never said A, so don't know how you got to B.
Safety is not my top priority - which is one of my points.
Somehow, I've managed to get by without IRS for a long, long, long time. Personal preference. For that matter, everyone that buys a Mustang is happy with the relatively poor ride over some bumpy roads - yet Mustang seems to be doing just fine.
Oh. I must of misread some posts above. My fault.
So the new Corolla is a pig? Is it a performance car? Is it trying to pretend to be?
Nah, don't have to back nearly that far.
No thanks. I have a choice. My choice is to voice my opinion.
Thank you. Pulled the motor out last weekend, goes to the engine builder next week!
Oh wait....you were talking about my hypothetical future project. Gotcha.
What is the current Mustang's weight? Personally, I think it is too heavy to, but given the tonnage that the Mod Motor adds to the car, GM should be able to beat it. In the original post, 3800 lbs was brought. That does not beat it.
GT500 aside, of course.
LOL. Fair enough.
Why? Other than the wife's car, I don't care about Beemers.
Give me a break - how much weight does OnStar add? And ya, Mustang has a live axle. It is also saddled with an overweight engine - on the front of the chassis.
You and Charlie are both off on this, as it applies to Mustang at least, and both by about the same amount though on different sides of that amount. The IRS is 85-90 lbs heavier than the live axle, depending upon which scale I weighed the parts on.
BTW that's not internet rumor - I've swapped the IRS out of both my 99 Cobra and my 04 Cobra. And then weighed them.
I'm pretty sure they are too. Doesn't mean I like it.
Ok. But it is still brought up, and given that this is a message forum, some of us decide to comment on it. Realistic or not. Others try to say we shouldn't.
Besides, don't we have a whole set of Forums here in which "judgement" is passed on various topics in numerous threads?
Ok.
Guess that means noone can.
Isn't that passing judgement?
FWIW, I never said anything about the engineers.
BTW....I'm anti-IRS....so neener neener neener
Bob
So you don't need to haul 4 people, fine, Camaro is not for you.
Volvo is safer than a GM SUV? Fine, Camaro is not for you.
Fine, you don't need IRS as you would be happy with a relatively poor ride over some bumpy roads.
No one is telling you to accept.
It's the reality of today's world. As i said, GM is not the only evil empire. The new Toyota Corolla has gained between 110 - 250 lbs, depending on model. If a new small car gains that much weight, don't expect a mass produced performance vehicle to weigh as much as the exotics.
It's your choice, Bob. Buy a used (like 30 yr old) vehicle perhaps?
So you're potentially willing to spend more? GM is in the business to make money. If you're willing to pay more for exotic materials, tell GM you've already paid the deposit for Camaro... just like the other 100,000 potential customers.
Good luck with your project!
Oh wait....you were talking about my hypothetical future project. Gotcha.
What is the current Mustang's weight? Personally, I think it is too heavy to, but given the tonnage that the Mod Motor adds to the car, GM should be able to beat it. In the original post, 3800 lbs was brought. That does not beat it.
GT500 aside, of course.
I save it for the "SS vs Z28 is top Camaro" threads.
Try that stunt in a new BMW 3 or 5 series.
New Mustang GT weighs in at 3500 pounds. Mustang GT also has a live axle. Ford also kept alot of the creature features off the Mustang. We already know that the new Camaro (as will all GM products soon) will have OnStar. Safe bat that the Camaro will be hooked up for far more luxury and convience items than Mustang as well.
As for everything else:
IRS assembly adds at least 150 pounds if all else is the same.
IRS assembly adds at least 150 pounds if all else is the same.
BTW that's not internet rumor - I've swapped the IRS out of both my 99 Cobra and my 04 Cobra. And then weighed them.
No one's telling you to "have" to like anything especially me, Bob. But I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people here are "right on the money" concerning the next Camaro's weight, or at the very least "Right in the ballpark".
However.... most everyone is willing to wait and see how the final car really is before passing judgement about some abitrary weight number and many here actually are beinging realistic enough that they know everything is a tradeoff.
Besides, don't we have a whole set of Forums here in which "judgement" is passed on various topics in numerous threads?
You're right that most people don't care about weight & they care more about features like SatNav, stereos, heated everything, etc. But what they tend to look at (outside of fuel mileage) is how does the car feel.
Could care less about any "message". I'm more a "facts" person.
I live in a city filled with people more intrested in "messages" than reality and facts. Anyone can sit here and spout messages till their blue in the face, but at the end of the day what counts is reality.
Reality in this case is that no one on the planet has produced a RWD, IRS, 450 to 500 horsepower/ 500 lbs/ft of torque capable, 4 passenger, 2 door car that weighs 3500 pounds costs this side of $100,000 (let alone $50,000), that has to not only double as a $20-25,000 high volume model but also has to contend with current and future emissions and safety standards..... oh... and by the way.... nothing on it can break from abuse for at least 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If anyone ever did, the line forms to the left of me.
I live in a city filled with people more intrested in "messages" than reality and facts. Anyone can sit here and spout messages till their blue in the face, but at the end of the day what counts is reality.
Reality in this case is that no one on the planet has produced a RWD, IRS, 450 to 500 horsepower/ 500 lbs/ft of torque capable, 4 passenger, 2 door car that weighs 3500 pounds costs this side of $100,000 (let alone $50,000), that has to not only double as a $20-25,000 high volume model but also has to contend with current and future emissions and safety standards..... oh... and by the way.... nothing on it can break from abuse for at least 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If anyone ever did, the line forms to the left of me.
Isn't that passing judgement?
Anyone who wants to still post messages demanding the 200 mpg carburetor, or that big oil collaberated with GM to kill the EV1, or that GM's engineers are either purposely or incompetently not making a 3400 pound 500 horsepower Camaro that costs a Mustang GT-like $25,000 can post messages here till their heats content.
BTW....I'm anti-IRS....so neener neener neener
Bob
