We now have enough info on what the next Camaro looks like.
03-24-2004, 07:15 PM
#212
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Houston
Posts: 3,123
It looks good, but it needs some fine tuning. I can’t exactly say what. It’s close, but not there yet.
BTW while we are talking about the dimensions of the car, I just want it too be able to fit in it. At 6’6” I can only drive some cars.
BTW while we are talking about the dimensions of the car, I just want it too be able to fit in it. At 6’6” I can only drive some cars.
03-24-2004, 10:53 PM
#215
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Buffalo NY
Posts: 469
I still think people worry too much, but atleast its good to know people are still passionate about these cars.
It is my opinion though that no cars made can top the late 60s camaro, charger etc type cars in terms of looks. so if they borrow a few more cues from those than some people want, I am sure they will still sell like mad because they were just so incredibly gorgeous (minus the rim/tire combos, im glad I didnt have to live through that, although bling bling dubs arent any better
) Im sure the mustang will sell no problem for the entire time it looks like it does, I think its the best stang ive ever seen, and so logn as there is a new camaro under a camaro name, the rest will take care of itself.
It is my opinion though that no cars made can top the late 60s camaro, charger etc type cars in terms of looks. so if they borrow a few more cues from those than some people want, I am sure they will still sell like mad because they were just so incredibly gorgeous (minus the rim/tire combos, im glad I didnt have to live through that, although bling bling dubs arent any better
) Im sure the mustang will sell no problem for the entire time it looks like it does, I think its the best stang ive ever seen, and so logn as there is a new camaro under a camaro name, the rest will take care of itself.
03-25-2004, 07:45 AM
#217
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Kennesaw, GA
Posts: 269
Evolutionary? At what point do we start buying cars that look like a V and are ten inches tall?
Face it: the biggest complaints from everyday America (the people who are going to ACTUALLY buy the car IN NUMBERS) were the hood was too long and low, the rear seats were barely useable.
Two areas where the Mustang CLEARLY had the Camaro beat, and I believe it paid off in sales numbers.
You guys can have your 'evolutionary' Corvette-like F5 if you want to, but leave me out of it. Why? Because we'd get it back for a few years, and you'd have the same result: 40k+odd units and it'd die again. If that's what you want, if heritage cues (retro for you Ted Nugent types) are too much for you, feel free to have it whatever way you want, because I won't buy it.
Neither will more buyers than it had in the last 5 years.
It's great that a vette-like F5 is more your style, but you have to admit you are in the minority when it comes to mainstream America, which is where GM is going to market this vehicle. The American public just simply isn't going to buy an anti-SUV, a California concept Camaro. You can take that to the bank, because GM tried to, and you see what the sales were like.
People trying to make the Camaro a Vette, why not just buy a Vette? I think GM has caught on to something with what we are hearing. When the general public looks at a car lineup and sees Vette, and Vette Jr, what do you think they will buy? Vette, of course. Spend a little more and get the name, more showroom HP and styling. You make the next Camaro Vette Jr, and this is what will happen. GM is smarter than that, and aren't going to make Vette Jrs. They are going to offer something that is different.
It's nice if you don't like retro. Great. More power to you. It'll be nice to hear the arguements when 2005 Mustang sells 200k+ units it's first year. More power to you.
But what you don't get is: YOU DON'T GET ANY SAY ANYMORE!!!!!!!! It's already too far along. Just say you don't like it and buy a Vette. You aren't going to get Vette Jr.
It's ovah!
03-25-2004, 08:14 AM
#218
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: At car shows and cruise nights!
Posts: 3,647
Wow, you've got it all figured out huh?! 
The M*stang having way more space in the back seats is new to me. When I was in an 02 it certainly didn't seem like it. You neglect that MANY people want the Camaro to be what it was for ALL those years. Even though some complained about certain features, most would like it to stay as sporty as always. It is a more direct and purpose built performance car than the F*rd. If it was made slightly higher, they reduced the doors, (not necessary IMO) reduced it's overall size a little, lessen the windshield rake some, and if useable space was improved, you can bet that every person would rather have the sporty Camaro look and feel over the sedan-like M*stang in the 5th Gen. And we'll see how much the retro car sells. 
Could be good, (at first anyway, as always is the case with retro) could be lousy after a while. The 4th Gen didn't sell for many reasons, you can't hold those 2 things you mentioned accountable.
The M*stang having way more space in the back seats is new to me. When I was in an 02 it certainly didn't seem like it. You neglect that MANY people want the Camaro to be what it was for ALL those years. Even though some complained about certain features, most would like it to stay as sporty as always. It is a more direct and purpose built performance car than the F*rd. If it was made slightly higher, they reduced the doors, (not necessary IMO) reduced it's overall size a little, lessen the windshield rake some, and if useable space was improved, you can bet that every person would rather have the sporty Camaro look and feel over the sedan-like M*stang in the 5th Gen. And we'll see how much the retro car sells. Could be good, (at first anyway, as always is the case with retro) could be lousy after a while. The 4th Gen didn't sell for many reasons, you can't hold those 2 things you mentioned accountable.
Last edited by IZ28; 03-25-2004 at 08:51 AM.
03-25-2004, 08:24 AM
#219
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 8,504
Originally posted by It's Cochese!
Evolutionary? At what point do we start buying cars that look like a V and are ten inches tall?
Evolutionary? At what point do we start buying cars that look like a V and are ten inches tall?
Face it: the biggest complaints from everyday America (the people who are going to ACTUALLY buy the car IN NUMBERS) were the hood was too long and low, the rear seats were barely useable.
Two areas where the Mustang CLEARLY had the Camaro beat, and I believe it paid off in sales numbers.
You guys can have your 'evolutionary' Corvette-like F5 if you want to, but leave me out of it. Why? Because we'd get it back for a few years, and you'd have the same result: 40k+odd units and it'd die again. If that's what you want, if heritage cues (retro for you Ted Nugent types) are too much for you, feel free to have it whatever way you want, because I won't buy it.
Neither will more buyers than it had in the last 5 years.
It's great that a vette-like F5 is more your style, but you have to admit you are in the minority when it comes to mainstream America, which is where GM is going to market this vehicle. The American public just simply isn't going to buy an anti-SUV, a California concept Camaro. You can take that to the bank, because GM tried to, and you see what the sales were like.
Malibu and Impala cater to "mainstream America"... Camaro doesn't have to compromise to be a success.
People trying to make the Camaro a Vette, why not just buy a Vette? I think GM has caught on to something with what we are hearing. When the general public looks at a car lineup and sees Vette, and Vette Jr, what do you think they will buy? Vette, of course. Spend a little more and get the name, more showroom HP and styling. You make the next Camaro Vette Jr, and this is what will happen. GM is smarter than that, and aren't going to make Vette Jrs. They are going to offer something that is different.
A Corvette costs DOUBLE what a Camaro does, and does not have a back seat. End of story... this is a horrible arguement to even make.
It's nice if you don't like retro. Great. More power to you. It'll be nice to hear the arguements when 2005 Mustang sells 200k+ units it's first year. More power to you.
But what you don't get is: YOU DON'T GET ANY SAY ANYMORE!!!!!!!! It's already too far along. Just say you don't like it and buy a Vette. You aren't going to get Vette Jr.
It's ovah!
Last edited by Darth Xed; 03-25-2004 at 08:29 AM.
03-25-2004, 08:26 AM
#220
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 917
...and another point:
I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...
I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...
03-25-2004, 08:29 AM
#221
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,646
I think this thread has transcended being hijacked and has officially snowballed out of control.
And I think it's a great ride....
I don't know howmany people here will start liking retro based on how well it sells. If the new 'Stand sell 200K (hell let's say 400K) a year I still won't like it. It's my persoanl stance. I like like new, progressive, bold designs, not a four wheeled 'reset button'.
The short falls of the current platform are not argueable. IMO it too bad more poeple could live with the trade off, but hey there other benefits to being in the minority. I strongly believe if the next Camaro follows the design philosophy of the C5 and C6, riase the roof .5 inch, shorten the doors an inch, stretch the wheel base 3-4 inches, and pull in the base of the windsheild while maintaining the A-pillar rake and possibly (gasp!) narrow the width to 3rd gen dimensions (not needed IMO), we'll have a very liveable car with a rakish desgn.
And I think it's a great ride....
I don't know howmany people here will start liking retro based on how well it sells. If the new 'Stand sell 200K (hell let's say 400K) a year I still won't like it. It's my persoanl stance. I like like new, progressive, bold designs, not a four wheeled 'reset button'.
The short falls of the current platform are not argueable. IMO it too bad more poeple could live with the trade off, but hey there other benefits to being in the minority. I strongly believe if the next Camaro follows the design philosophy of the C5 and C6, riase the roof .5 inch, shorten the doors an inch, stretch the wheel base 3-4 inches, and pull in the base of the windsheild while maintaining the A-pillar rake and possibly (gasp!) narrow the width to 3rd gen dimensions (not needed IMO), we'll have a very liveable car with a rakish desgn.
03-25-2004, 08:32 AM
#222
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,646
Originally posted by uluz28
...and another point:
I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...
...and another point:
I'll agree with you that the F-body isn't as much as an easy vehicle in relation to the Mustang. It is low and sporty (the way I like it). But, Mustang sold so well mainly because of the name, IMO. Little chicks and non-enthusiast types know the name Mustang over Camaro, and that's where the majority of them sold--the V6 with the name...
I actually read this in a design article months ago. it is the opposite in Europe though....
03-25-2004, 10:34 AM
#224
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Lilburn, GA, USA
Posts: 2,072
Originally posted by Darth Xed
Obviously you are exagerating, but the lower, more streamline look has literally evolved through the generations of Camaro.
No... it was that the DASH was too long. A big difference when you say the HOOD was too long. And the back seat, while an issue, is no worse than a Mustang's back seat. Sit in them and see. I have.
You must be forgetting all the other reaosns why Camaro died. No Marketing. Lack of styling updates over 10 years. Poor build quality relative to other vehicles in the same showroom. The bad business plan that has the car being built at a plant with a 250,000+ per year annual capacity, leaving the plant underutilized, even if Camaro and Firebird had sold 200,000 units every year. And a host of other things.
And with the proper platform, and GM's apparent tendancy to build many cars off a few platforms, thereby catering to 'niche' markets, a new Camaro business plan should be able to be made successful selling 80,000 or so units per year... I assume this, because I do not have any numbers to back me up, but look at all the other lower volume items GM is putting out now and in the near future. Zeta is going ot have a lot of vehicles built off it... that spreads out a lot of costs.
Malibu and Impala cater to "mainstream America"... Camaro doesn't have to compromise to be a success.
A Corvette costs DOUBLE what a Camaro does, and does not have a back seat. End of story... this is a horrible arguement to even make.
200,000? Maybe... I doubt it, but I wont say it's impossible... the more important question is how long will sales stay high. Any new car, especially a car wearing a nameplate like Mustang, is going ot sell like mad when it is re-done.
I don't understand what this means. I suppose you know everything about the new car, what it looks like, how far along it is, have driven it 50,000+ test miles, and even have your favorite color picked out, right?
This pretty much sums up everything I read in your post... [/B]
Obviously you are exagerating, but the lower, more streamline look has literally evolved through the generations of Camaro.
No... it was that the DASH was too long. A big difference when you say the HOOD was too long. And the back seat, while an issue, is no worse than a Mustang's back seat. Sit in them and see. I have.
You must be forgetting all the other reaosns why Camaro died. No Marketing. Lack of styling updates over 10 years. Poor build quality relative to other vehicles in the same showroom. The bad business plan that has the car being built at a plant with a 250,000+ per year annual capacity, leaving the plant underutilized, even if Camaro and Firebird had sold 200,000 units every year. And a host of other things.
And with the proper platform, and GM's apparent tendancy to build many cars off a few platforms, thereby catering to 'niche' markets, a new Camaro business plan should be able to be made successful selling 80,000 or so units per year... I assume this, because I do not have any numbers to back me up, but look at all the other lower volume items GM is putting out now and in the near future. Zeta is going ot have a lot of vehicles built off it... that spreads out a lot of costs.
Malibu and Impala cater to "mainstream America"... Camaro doesn't have to compromise to be a success.
A Corvette costs DOUBLE what a Camaro does, and does not have a back seat. End of story... this is a horrible arguement to even make.
200,000? Maybe... I doubt it, but I wont say it's impossible... the more important question is how long will sales stay high. Any new car, especially a car wearing a nameplate like Mustang, is going ot sell like mad when it is re-done.
I don't understand what this means. I suppose you know everything about the new car, what it looks like, how far along it is, have driven it 50,000+ test miles, and even have your favorite color picked out, right?
This pretty much sums up everything I read in your post...
[/B]
How do you think the Camaro is like the Corvette? The only way they are similar is in performance, nothing else so how is this nearly the same as a Vette? Remeber people who shop for a Vette rarely, if ever, cross-shop for a Camaro.
To blame the short-term demise of the Camaro on styling or body configuration is insane. There were so many factors and I guess people will believe what they want.
As far as the hood argument, I guess you have never seen a 3rg gen. The hood on those is far longer than the 4th gen and the 3rd gen sold very well so that argument is invalid.
Remember, if the car had just "heritage cues" then no one would have a problem, you can be sure of that.
And by the way, if I remember correctly, you don't even own a Camaro and never had, you have an Eclipse...............correct me if I am wrong.
Last edited by SNEAKY NEIL; 03-25-2004 at 10:37 AM.
